Another tory defects to UKIP

[johnny the fox]

..because their leader speaks well? Or is there more to it than that?

Because I want to vote for somebody who actually represents me and my country.. who we can change, rather than a basically unelected bureaucrat who you and me had no say in  him getting his position. I know that's a radical concept.. Juncker is our master rather than our servant and his masters are big business and vested interests.

[bovril]

Because I want to vote for somebody who actually represents me and my country.. who we can change, rather than a basically unelected bureaucrat who you and me had no say in  him getting his position. I know that's a radical concept.. Juncker is our master rather than our servant and his masters are big business and vested interests.

 

The World's run by unelected bureaucrats. Big Business is everyone's master. T'was ever thus...

[Strokes]

I hope you're aware that the "anti-democratic" Commissioners are appointed by the elected heads of state from each member country and subjected to an approval vote (presumably what's being discussed in the video) held by the elected MEPs from each country. Put simply it is the people who we as a public have elected to act on our behalf, acting on our behalf. Short of Europe-wide elections which would only really be faesible if Europe was a USA-style union it's the best approximation to democracy available.

If it was Russia or an Arab state, people would call it undemocratic, the people dont get a choice.

[Strokes]

The World's run by unelected bureaucrats. Big Business is everyone's master. T'was ever thus...

Ah! Just role over and part your bum cheeks then.

[johnny the fox]

The World's run by unelected bureaucrats. Big Business is everyone's master. T'was ever thus...

So why bother having a vote......

[Alf Bentley]

If it was Russia or an Arab state, people would call it undemocratic, the people dont get a choice.

 

The people don't get a choice about lots of positions in the UK, either: Prime Minister, cabinet, monarch, House of Lords...

 

Who replaced Thatcher with Major as PM in 1990? Tory MPs, not "the people".... Who replaced Blair with Brown as PM in 2007? Labour MPs, not "the people"

 

The EU is far from perfect, but its on a par with the UK for its level of direct democracy:

Council: Cameron & ministers & opposite numbers (indirect democracy);

Parliament: Directly-elected MEPs;

UK Commissioners: appointed by PM;

Juncker: proposed by Council (Cameron & opposite numbers) & elected by European Parliament (MEPs elected by us & voters in other countries).

[Guest MattP]

The people don't get a choice about lots of positions in the UK, either: Prime Minister, cabinet, monarch, House of Lords...

 

Who replaced Thatcher with Major as PM in 1990? Tory MPs, not "the people".... Who replaced Blair with Brown as PM in 2007? Labour MPs, not "the people"

 

The EU is far from perfect, but its on a par with the UK for its level of direct democracy:

Council: Cameron & ministers & opposite numbers (indirect democracy);

Parliament: Directly-elected MEPs;

UK Commissioners: appointed by PM;

Juncker: proposed by Council (Cameron & opposite numbers) & elected by European Parliament (MEPs elected by us & voters in other countries).

 

Not really, the majority of the MP's in Westminster would never engage in shady back room deals to effect coalitions they never mentioned to us and use influence in the press to silence any other political parties or projects that could endanger their own careers in the profession.

 

Oh wait...

[Strokes]

The people don't get a choice about lots of positions in the UK, either: Prime Minister, cabinet, monarch, House of Lords...

Who replaced Thatcher with Major as PM in 1990? Tory MPs, not "the people".... Who replaced Blair with Brown as PM in 2007? Labour MPs, not "the people"

The EU is far from perfect, but its on a par with the UK for its level of direct democracy:

Council: Cameron & ministers & opposite numbers (indirect democracy);

Parliament: Directly-elected MEPs;

UK Commissioners: appointed by PM;

Juncker: proposed by Council (Cameron & opposite numbers) & elected by European Parliament (MEPs elected by us & voters in other countries).

I agree with you on the lords but a lords decision can be challenged and overuled. Brown and major faced the eloctorate eventually but its a disgrace that it wasn't earlier.

The commission makes decisions cast in stone and are never answerable, the only way to vote against them is to exit the EU.

[absolutelegend]

Quite possibly, but with the amount of people who seem to adore Farage simply for 'saying it how it is' you just don't know.

As opposed to saying it how it isn't?

[Guest Kopfkino]

I'd rather we stayed in the EU but this has got to stop http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29751124

[Guest MattP]

I'd rather we stayed in the EU but this has got to stop http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29751124

 

You couldn't make it up could you? Classic socialism this, we've fcuked it up, you're doing well, so give us some of your money as we've lost it.

 

The whole thing has become an embarassment this week, we've had Mr Barroso coming to London to openly tell David Cameron in front of the British public he isn't doing his job properly. You almost get the feeling he is goading him.

 

The good news is Germany and France now seem to be in line with us with regard to asking for admendments to the freedom of movement laws, I can't wait for that ridiculous day when the elected governments of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain all go to the commission to ask if they can change the law to who and what they can allow into their own respective countries only to be told by Juncker 'no you can't, you do whatt I say, who do you think you are?'.

[Alf Bentley]

I agree with you on the lords but a lords decision can be challenged and overuled. Brown and major faced the eloctorate eventually but its a disgrace that it wasn't earlier.

The commission makes decisions cast in stone and are never answerable, the only way to vote against them is to exit the EU.

 

The unelected Lords can also effectively halt legislation approved by the directly elected Commons. As it happens, though, I'm not convinced that a wholly elected Lords is the best way to go for more accountable democracy in the UK. That could just end up as yet another chamber of out-of-touch, semi-corrupt party politicians. It could also end up seeing itself as a rival to the Commons and we could end up with the sort of constant deadlock between the 2 chambers that occurs between the House and the Senate in the US Congress. I quite like the idea of a Chamber of Experts instead of the Lords (experts from business, unions, academia, armed forces, NHS, the courts, education etc.) who could assess how legislation proposed by the Commons would work on the front line, propose amendments etc.

 

There would be much more chance of real democracy in touch with the people if we went down the devolution route. I don't mean just "English votes for English laws" (though I'm not opposed to that). Neither do I necessarily mean Regional Assemblies, though, if we stay in the EU, that could be a way of reconnecting the EU more to the people as a lot of the EU is based on regional policies now. Some devolution could be to cities, counties or groups of cities or counties. That would have to be properly planned, as there's an obvious risk of handing power and larger budgets to local councils that are either corruptible or that don't have the competence to cope with such larger responsibilities.

 

Another part of the democratic reconnect through devolution could be through devolving powers and control over budgets to stakeholders in particular sectors: e.g. more control over healthcare in the East Midlands run by a body comprising local doctors, nurses, health managers and patients with access to expert guidance....or more control over Leicester schools to a body comprising heads, teachers, parents, employers, academics etc. There are risks if it's not done properly, but at least those people are not in Westminster, cosying up with corporate lobbyists, they're based in local communities and that could reconnect people to the sort of politics that matters to them and restore a bit of faith in democracy. That might sound a bit idealistic, but look at what has happened in Scotland through the referendum, with a real resurgence of political debate, 85% turnout and countless thousands since joining political parties.

 

Funny enough, the UKIP woman on Question Time this evening made a good point, proposing just that sort of devolution to grass roots level (though she wasn't very impressive generally - flitting about, making policy on the hoof).

 

As for "the Commission making decisions cast in stone", that's just not true. It's an influential body, but it mainly proposes and implements legislation. The "decisions cast in stone" are mainly taken by a combination of the Council/Council of Ministers (Cameron & his ministers and their opposite numbers from other EU countries) and the European Parliament (directly elected by us). There are arguments for exiting the EU (on both left and right) based on the idea that we can built a better Britain by NOT pooling our sovereignty with other EU countries, but the idea that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and the UK is much more democratic is misguided. We need democratic reform and a democratic reconnect in the UK regardless of whether we stay in the EU or not. Yes, there needs to be a democratic reconnect at EU level, too, if we stay in. That's quite a task, I admit, but it would be a start if we realised that, directly or indirectly, our elected representatives control the EU just as much as French or German representatives do.....only a start, admittedly! 

[johnny the fox]

Ordered by the commission..to pay up.. need I say more...come on nige fook em up.

[MPH]

The people don't get a choice about lots of positions in the UK, either: Prime Minister, cabinet, monarch, House of Lords...

Who replaced Thatcher with Major as PM in 1990? Tory MPs, not "the people".... Who replaced Blair with Brown as PM in 2007? Labour MPs, not "the people"

At least for all those mentioned the people directly voted for the ideology that those people represented. And as for the queen- she has absolutely no political powers whatsoever so I'm not sure why she is bought into political discussions.....

[Rincewind]

Just read that lawers are looking at how the Torys selected their candidate for the Rochester (?(  by election. It seems they may over spent the 100k allowed to promote the runners. They sent leaflets 9glossy) about the runners and paid return post.

If the tories do win it will be dec before the lawers decision will be known.http://blogs.channel4.com/michael-crick-on-politics/lawyers-judges-overturn-tory-victory-rochester/4541

 

The way the article is worded it seems there are only two possible winners UKIP or Tory.

[absolutelegend]

http://m.bbc.com/news/business-29751124

What can we do to get our country out of the EU asap?

[absolutelegend]

http://m.bbc.com/news/business-29751124

What can we do to get our country out of the EU asap?

I'm actually fuming about this!

Which morons signed us up for this?

Which even bigger morons are voting to keep us in this sh1t?

(Rhetorical questions, I know the answers)

[Alf Bentley]

At least for all those mentioned the people directly voted for the ideology that those people represented. And as for the queen- she has absolutely no political powers whatsoever so I'm not sure why she is bought into political discussions.....

 

People directly voted for MEPs. They directly voted for the ideology of the person (the PM) who appointed our 2 European Commissioners (1 Tory, 1 Labour, by tradition). They directly voted for the ideology of the people (Cameron & his ministers) who directly represent us on the European Council & Council of Ministers (still the most powerful decision-making body in the EU).

 

The Queen is Head of State and is not democratically elected (unlike Juncker, the President of the European Commission, who was the named candidate of the most successful political group in the EU and who was then approved by the directly-elected European Parliament). Nominally, the Queen does have political powers, though quite rightly she traditionally never uses them - and it would cause a constitutional crisis if she did (though that might not stop Charles intervening in politics when he's King). I didn't raise the Queen because I think we should have a democratically elected head of state (I don't - for now at least)....just pointing out that the UK is no more democratic than the EU.

[johnny the fox]

Ha Ha.. surprise surprise..France (economic basket case)  and  Germany get a billion rebate ..while Britain and GREECE(economic basket case) are Fined for doing economically better..  if people cannot see this fookin EU is a rigged game they must be willfully blind. WE NEED OUT! 

[Webbo]

This is where we'd be better off with Labour. With Ed Balls in charge of the economy we'd be getting a massive rebate now.

[Alf Bentley]

This is where we'd be better off with Labour. With Ed Balls in charge of the economy we'd be getting a massive rebate now.

 

Glad to see you're coming round, Webbo.   

 

I'm not sure that you're right, though. This demand for an extra contribution is due to an upward adjustment to stats on the comparative performance of the UK economy since 1995.....a period when the UK was mainly under a Labour government.

So, they're asking for more because the UK's economic performance under Labour was even better than they first thought. 

 

Mind you, it all seems to be due to a change in the way GNP is calculated, so as to include activities like drug-dealing and prostitution (I note that a tax demand is also on its way to Amsterdam!). So, maybe the new growth industries of the UK have finally been identified. 

 

In all seriousness, can you imagine Farage's face when he heard this news? He must have been ecstatic!

 

Given the timing, if I were a conspiracy (and not a cock-up) theorist, I'd be wondering whether the European Commission were seeking to give UKIP a boost so as to push the UK out of the EU - or Labour a boost at the general election, to keep the UK in!

[MooseBreath]

The adjustments still have to be approved by the member states, so I think there's a good chance it won't actually happen. I'd like to know who approved of looking at this adjustment in the first place though. How can any sane person use increased levels of drug use and prostitution and the associated violence and human trafficking as a measure of economic success? It's absolutely barmy.

I reckon this payment will never happen, but today's headlines alone will have poured a huge amount of fuel on the anti-eu fire to the direct benefit of UKIP.

[Guest MattP]

Where is the evidence this is based on anything from 1995? I can't find anything to back that up.

It's clearly a tax on prosperity and stability, you should expect nothing else, it's quite laughable as well given a lot of the policy we have pursued to achieve this growth was criticised by the same people that are now seeking to profit from it, further to what Webbo says, if we're going to be in this project we may as well have Ed Balls in charge, it's bad enough paying for Scotland's socialist project without now having to fund a failed French one as well.

 

Germany is actually getting a rebate, not content with sending half of Southern Europe into poverty they are actually getting a rebate, can you imagine what the Greeks will thinking of this?

 

They've just showed a cracking clip on Sky from the time when Blair gave back half the rebate Maggie got us, he actually did it as we were promised agricultural reform to protect our farming, you can guess what happened there, we got absolutely nothing in the end.

 

Oh to have Maggie back again, a proper Conservative leader who made Europe realise that it needed us more than we needed it, she'd have eaten politicians like Barroso and Juncker for breakfast and spat them out before PMQs.

 

The whole thing is amusing in a sick way at the minute, we;ve got Cameron saying he's going to try and negotiate whether we can decide who comes into our own country, then he's going to ask nicely if our courts can have the final decision on what punishment and rights people that commit crimes in this country have, we've got Theresa May today saying a person who kills a policeman should spend life in prison but despite being the home secretary she can't actually do anything about it.

 

What's the point in even electing these people anymore? In everything our government seems completely subservient to something or someone else.

 

Roll on 2019 when Europe will finally start to end this project once and for all.

[Guest MattP]

Ed Balls has just popped up on TV, first time we've seen him for weeks again

 

Bascially said he thinks this is totally unfair and quite disgraceful, that it's immoral at this and the British people will see it as so, before going onto explain that we probably will have to pay it anyway.

[Guest MattP]

No need for the link Alf, got the Eurostat stuff from 1995 now.