johnny the fox Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 I don't know, Ken. It's clear from the article that Owen Jones feels that he has a lot in common with UKIP supporters. If Farage implodes at some point, maybe Matt would welcome Owen Jones as new UKIP leader? There is a serious point hidden behind that flippancy... How come neither Labour nor any party of the left is speaking up for all the disenchanted people who are drifting to UKIP? Still concentrating on those "swing voters" in "crucial marginals", due to the stupid election system, I suppose...could be a big mistake! Admittedly, Europe and immigration are difficult issues for the left to address, but not impossible - and it's quite clear from the article that, if you scratch below the surface, those aren't the only 2 causes of discontent that are boosting UKIP's ranks. I watched the Panorama programme on UKIP and thought it was very poor indeed. Panorama used to be a real high-quality flagship programme for the BBC, but they effectively pulled the plug on it a few years back, cutting it to 30 minutes and slashing its budget. You could smell the desperately low budget throughout that programme - a cheap, low quality broadcast that addressed an important issue, but revealed nothing whatsoever, as far as I could tell. About the only vaguely interesting new information was that Farage has supposedly fallen out with a lot of colleagues over the years. Even if that's true, they didn't pin this on Farage in any way, just had a couple of said malcontents wittering on in an unsubstantiated way. I suppose they did raise the issue of election funds being diverted to the SE in the past.....but, frankly, that probably made sense as it was always likely to be their main breakthrough area (still is, even if they're now establishing a meaningful presence in parts of the North, too). A proper, probing investigation into what UKIP is all about it - preferably a challenging but balanced programme - would be a very good idea, but Panorama certainly didn't provide it! Unfortunately for those who don't like UKIP's values, Farage himself comes across much better than 95% of politicians from the main parties. You get the impression that he is at ease speaking to normal people, which puts him ahead of most Tories, Labourites or Lib Dems. Mind you, I do sense that he has an explosion in him.... He'll be under a lot of scrutiny once the election comes around and I could imagine him losing his cool and damaging his reputation. Although UKIP does have some other competent spokespeople, a lot of their appeal depends on Farage not imploding - their campaign could be massively damaged if he does. I've read that his Dad was an alcoholic, so given Nigel's liking for a few ales, maybe he'll freak out down the saloon bar of the Golden Lion and discredit himself? I live in hope..... I don't know, Ken. It's clear from the article that Owen Jones feels that he has a lot in common with UKIP supporters. If Farage implodes at some point, maybe Matt would welcome Owen Jones as new UKIP leader? There is a serious point hidden behind that flippancy... How come neither Labour nor any party of the left is speaking up for all the disenchanted people who are drifting to UKIP? Still concentrating on those "swing voters" in "crucial marginals", due to the stupid election system, I suppose...could be a big mistake! Admittedly, Europe and immigration are difficult issues for the left to address, but not impossible - and it's quite clear from the article that, if you scratch below the surface, those aren't the only 2 causes of discontent that are boosting UKIP's ranks. I watched the Panorama programme on UKIP and thought it was very poor indeed. Panorama used to be a real high-quality flagship programme for the BBC, but they effectively pulled the plug on it a few years back, cutting it to 30 minutes and slashing its budget. You could smell the desperately low budget throughout that programme - a cheap, low quality broadcast that addressed an important issue, but revealed nothing whatsoever, as far as I could tell. About the only vaguely interesting new information was that Farage has supposedly fallen out with a lot of colleagues over the years. Even if that's true, they didn't pin this on Farage in any way, just had a couple of said malcontents wittering on in an unsubstantiated way. I suppose they did raise the issue of election funds being diverted to the SE in the past.....but, frankly, that probably made sense as it was always likely to be their main breakthrough area (still is, even if they're now establishing a meaningful presence in parts of the North, too). A proper, probing investigation into what UKIP is all about it - preferably a challenging but balanced programme - would be a very good idea, but Panorama certainly didn't provide it! Unfortunately for those who don't like UKIP's values, Farage himself comes across much better than 95% of politicians from the main parties. You get the impression that he is at ease speaking to normal people, which puts him ahead of most Tories, Labourites or Lib Dems. Mind you, I do sense that he has an explosion in him.... He'll be under a lot of scrutiny once the election comes around and I could imagine him losing his cool and damaging his reputation. Although UKIP does have some other competent spokespeople, a lot of their appeal depends on Farage not imploding - their campaign could be massively damaged if he does. I've read that his Dad was an alcoholic, so given Nigel's liking for a few ales, maybe he'll freak out down the saloon bar of the Golden Lion and discredit himself? I live in hope..... Farage has in the last ten years had 2 near death experiences.. one a bad car accident and one light aircraft smash..those kind of things can put life into perspective, I now think he fears nothing and is prepared to speak his mind and not worry what any focus group might think... traumas can sometimes set you free. https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Nigel+Farage+Crash&id=48D817000D840BC7C5727DBDE6420D3449272362&FORM=IARRTH
Guest Kopfkino Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 You might want to have a quick look at what Hitler thought about Marx, Socialism and Communism. There is no need to look. He and his party identified as socialists. He was critical of Marx and Communism as he believed it was too long a route to the end goal but he did say early on that his national socialism was based on Marx. Hitler in 1939 was a completely different person to pre 1934 Hitler
Webbo Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 It will be something like 'rantings from a loony leftie' or 'he doesn't know what he is talking about' It will be something like 'rantings from a loony leftie' or 'he doesn't know what he is talking about' And you're so open to alternative viewpoints yourself. PS how is Owen Jones any different to the middle class,career politicians who have never had a proper job themselves he criticises except for the fact he isn't an MP?
Rincewind Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 I don't know either Alf.I was trying to be amusing. I know Matt is not an Owen fan because of his views but it was not a criticism of Matt just an observation from previous posts. It does seem strange that Owen jones seems to be supporting UKIP but I think that is more siding with the disillusioned voters, He said more than once he agrees with the supporters so maybe asking if Farage will deliver. I read somewhere that milliband is playing it cagey. There are still some Blairites in senior positions in the party and he doesn't want to upset the apple cart so to speak. He does seem to be more vocal lately but the cynic in me is asking if the forthcoming election has any bearing.
Guest MattP Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 I've already replied to that Owen Jones open letter before on here about 6 months ago somewhere, already been alluded to by laventis but half the stuff he talks about wasn't even UKIP policy at the time and that probably goes for about 9/10th's of it now. Just part of that Jan-May period this year where the media were desperate to peddle any lie they could about UKIP in desperate attempts to stop people voting for them in May. It's quite precious how commentators like Owen Jones feel the need to do this to UKIP though, when the Liberal Democrats were picking up masses of votes on protest/anti Westminster agendas despite it being rather clear a massive proportion of the people doing so didn't have a clue what they were voting for in terms of policy you didn't hear a peep out of his type let alone publishing open letters to ask why they were turning towards them. Maybe the right wing press should be publishing some letters to the northern Labour voters? After all, immigration is often touted by those people up there as the main issue of concern, maybe we should be asking them why they seem to keep voting for a party they actually barely agree with just because their parents told them to? That said everytime Owen opens his mouth Nigel Farage should crack open a bottle, his ilk have done more than anyone to increase the support for the party, he's the full package for the modern day public lefty, gay, feminist, Oxbridge educated, another one of the Islington elite that can't wait to pontificate to the working classes on how they should vote as he's far more educated than everyone else. Keep it up Mr Jones. Alf, the left should speak up on Europe, Tom Watson often has and will play a crucial part for the anti-EU mob when a referendum does come around, the left in terms of speaking about immigration concerns though is long gone, you can't start claiming to be serious about having a debate on it when so many over the last 15 years decided to bully and smear anyone who wanted to talk about is as a bigot or a racist. We all knew it was the thoughts inside the party and we finally got the proof we needed when Gordon Brown openly said it when he left his microphone on. To hear it from Labour party is would just be laughable given what we saw last time out, admittals to sending out search parties for immigrants who would vote for them, bringing in more to 'rub the right's nose in it' without a care for the consequence of what it would do to communities, employment, pressure on public service or social cohesion, Labour asking for votes on immigration concerns would be seen the same in the public eye as the Tories asking you to vote for them to save the NHS. Great post by KingGTF at the top as well, the greatest trick the left ever pulled was to completely pull Hitler as a all out far right figure of history, the concept and base on the party was very left wing and goes a long way to justifying the belief of the shoe horn theory when it comes to 'far left far right'. Did Mark_W actually ask what Hitler thought of Socialism? What are they teaching you in school these days?! Called the bloody National Socialists!
Alf Bentley Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 I've already replied to that Owen Jones open letter before on here about 6 months ago somewhere, already been alluded to by laventis but half the stuff he talks about wasn't even UKIP policy at the time and that probably goes for about 9/10th's of it now. Just part of that Jan-May period this year where the media were desperate to peddle any lie they could about UKIP in desperate attempts to stop people voting for them in May. Alf, the left should speak up on Europe, Tom Watson often has and will play a crucial part for the anti-EU mob when a referendum does come around, the left in terms of speaking about immigration concerns though is long gone, you can't start claiming to be serious about having a debate on it when so many over the last 15 years decided to bully and smear anyone who wanted to talk about is as a bigot or a racist. We all knew it was the thoughts inside the party and we finally got the proof we needed when Gordon Brown openly said it when he left his microphone on. To hear it from Labour party is would just be laughable given what we saw last time out. Sorry, didn't notice that article was an old one dating back to January. Europe: I reckon that it would be good if Labour committed to an in-out EU referendum, particularly seeing how the Scottish referendum re-energised politics up there. Voters are so alienated from politicians that such a major debate might give our democracy a boost. Plus, people's understanding of Europe is so woefully poor (and I include myself in that), it would be a good awareness-raising exercise, as well as being a long time since the people were consulted. I'd probably vote to stay in myself, but am not 100% sure about that and would like to hear some informed arguments. The bottom line for me is that the capitalist economy is going global, so democratic politics needs to have a more international aspect. But what sort of EU is on offer is quite another question. I'm not sure why Labour hasn't committed to a referendum: fear of a "No" vote or just their instinctive centralising tendencies? Tactically, it seems low-risk for them as most Labour MPs would support staying in and anti-EU Labourites could be free to campaign for the other side, as per the electoral reform referendum. With big business mainly in favour, I reckon there'd probably be a vote to stay in, and even if the Right didn't dissolve into rancorous splits, it would eliminate one of their potential vote winners. Immigration: I certainly don't think that Labour should make immigration a key plank of their campaign - that would be suicidal, as you suggest. Labour will want the election to be about falling living standards and public services, I assume. However, they should be more prepared to discuss immigration and to present policies. Europe and immigration will be election issues, alongside the economy, living standards, public services etc, and they should have something better to say about them. They've apologised for the cock-up of massively under-estimating immigration from Eastern Europe, can make clear that they've learned from that and can point out that the Tories have massively missed their targets, but will get little credit for that. The issues with immigration are much bigger than some whingers on the Right would like us to believe, though... Where would the NHS be without immigrant labour - and why do an insufficient number of Brits opt for careers in nursing, medicine etc? Why aren't fruit-picking jobs taken up by Brits? Is it just because it is more profitable and convenient for farmers to hire cheap labour from Eastern Europe via gangmasters? That wasn't the case back in the 80s, when I did quite a bit of fruit-picking. There were a few groups of gypsies, but most of the pickers were English locals. If immigration was drastically cut back, would thousands of Brits rush to fill those jobs emptying bedpans and picking spuds? That doesn't answer the question of what policies Labour could credibly propose - and nothing would convince the anti-immigrant hard-core - but a serious debate and policy response would be better than avoiding the issue. It might influence voters with genuine concerns, if not the dyed-in-the-wool anti-immigrant types.
Nick Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 UKIP Deselect candidate after sheep cruelty charges http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/david-evans-ukip-candidate-deselected-after-admitting-sheep-cruelty-charges-9796986.html
johnny the fox Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 what about the tory and labour blokes caught donkey molesting?
purpleronnie Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 what about the tory and labour blokes caught donkey molesting? mattp and Alf?
johnny the fox Posted 16 October 2014 Posted 16 October 2014 mattp and Alf? pockets full of carrots..
Guest MattP Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 Would love to see Labour offer up that Alf but I get the feeling Miliband is managing to keep the Eurosceptics in the party quiet, maybe we'll have to wait until the Kinnocks depart before the party can turn in that direction. Meanwhile Owen Jones is in the news again, he's already been found to be lying in his new book http://order-order.com/2014/10/16/owen-jones-admits-his-book-is-factually-incorrect-owen-spinning-100-wrong-establishment-statistic/
Mark_w Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 Did Mark_W actually ask what Hitler thought of Socialism? What are they teaching you in school these days?! Called the bloody National Socialists! I'm amazed that you're weighing on this after your 'there are no living holocaust survivors' gaffe. What did they teach you in school Matt? The Nazi's killed in cold blood thousands of genuine socialists, trade unionists and communists, in Mein Kampf he talks about destroying Marxism in all it's 'shapes and forms'. I don't care if Hitler called himself a socialist, so did Tony Blair and I bet you don't think he was. I personally don't think that Hitler was a socialist as I understand it. I might be wrong, but I don't see how it's stupid to question whether or not Hitler was a socialist because I certainly don't think it's clear that he was.
SMX11 Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 I'm amazed that you're weighing on this after your 'there are no living holocaust survivors' gaff. What did they teach you in school Matt? The Nazi's killed in cold blood thousands of genuine socialists, trade unionists and communists, in Mein Kampf he talks about destroying Marxism in all it's 'shapes and forms'. I don't care if Hitler called himself a socialist, so did Tony Blair and I bet you don't think he was. I personally don't think that Hitler was a socialist as I understand it. I might be wrong, but I don't see how it's stupid to question whether or not Hitler was a socialist because I certainly don't think it's clear that he was. He was just a different form of Socialist, their basic principles are very similar. He hated other forms because they are fishing for similar supporters.
Guest MattP Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 I'm amazed that you're weighing on this after your 'there are no living holocaust survivors' gaffe. What did they teach you in school Matt? The Nazi's killed in cold blood thousands of genuine socialists, trade unionists and communists, in Mein Kampf he talks about destroying Marxism in all it's 'shapes and forms'. I don't care if Hitler called himself a socialist, so did Tony Blair and I bet you don't think he was. I personally don't think that Hitler was a socialist as I understand it. I might be wrong, but I don't see how it's stupid to question whether or not Hitler was a socialist because I certainly don't think it's clear that he was. I'm weighing in because you are clearly wrong here, what I've said in the past has no relevance to that. Hitler was a socialist, I think that's beyond doubt, he obviously couldn't completely admit to his love for all others form of it at this time in history as the Soviet was considered the marxist state of the World at the time. You can see the influence of the books he read on Marx while he was imprisoned after World War 1 all the way through Mein Kampf, the Mother's Cross idea was taken straight from the Bolsheviks. People take different aspects of socialism from reading Marx and Hitler's was a nationalist version if it. The fact is Adolf Hitler championed (German) workers rights, wanted everything nationlised and felt that the capitalist system was completely unfair, crikey, he was even an athiest who openly admitted to admiring Islam ahead of Christianity which was the religion is want brough up into, if he appeared on Question Time in 2014 and didn't mention the mass murder you would mistake him for Owen Jones or Polly Toynbee. It is the issue of race that has always prevented National Socialism from being seen as any sort of socialism, saying he can't be that because he advocated and practised genocide suggests a clear lack of thinking and consistency given that Stalin is widely regarded as one.
Mark_w Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 I'm weighing in because you are clearly wrong here, what I've said in the past has no relevance to that. Hitler was a socialist, I think that's beyond doubt, he obviously couldn't completely admit to his love for all others form of it at this time in history as the Soviet was considered the marxist state of the World at the time. You can see the influence of the books he read on Marx while he was imprisoned after World War 1 all the way through Mein Kampf, the Mother's Cross idea was taken straight from the Bolsheviks. People take different aspects of socialism from reading Marx and Hitler's was a nationalist version if it. The fact is Adolf Hitler championed (German) workers rights, wanted everything nationlised and felt that the capitalist system was completely unfair, crikey, he was even an athiest who openly admitted to admiring Islam ahead of Christianity which was the religion is want brough up into, if he appeared on Question Time in 2014 and didn't mention the mass murder you would mistake him for Owen Jones or Polly Toynbee. It is the issue of race that has always prevented National Socialism from being seen as any sort of socialism, saying he can't be that because he advocated and practised genocide suggests a clear lack of thinking and consistency given that Stalin is widely regarded as one. Matt see if you can track down 'Against the mainstream: Nazi privatization in 1930s' by Germa Bel, I had a quick look through the journals my University have access to when this debate first started. Think it's quite an interesting article, and unless I'm completely misinterpreting it, a lot doesn't really fit with the view that the Nazis were socialists. Worth a read anyway. I don't agree that Hitler was a socialist. How the Mother's Cross is evidence of socialism, or how indeed it indicates much about political ideology I have no idea? If you could clear that up I'd appreciate it.
Guest MattP Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 I wasn't saying the Mother's Cross was evidence of socialism, I was using it as an example of how many of Hitler's ideas came from the nation that at the time was considered the most Marxist one on the planet. The evidence of Hitler's socialism is in all his socialist policies.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 Matt see if you can track down 'Against the mainstream: Nazi privatization in 1930s' by Germa Bel, I had a quick look through the journals my University have access to when this debate first started. Think it's quite an interesting article, and unless I'm completely misinterpreting it, a lot doesn't really fit with the view that the Nazis were socialists. Worth a read anyway. I don't agree that Hitler was a socialist. How the Mother's Cross is evidence of socialism, or how indeed it indicates much about political ideology I have no idea? If you could clear that up I'd appreciate it. I do believe that the Nazi's didn't ever really nationalise and did indeed privatise some companies. However the privatised companies were heavily regulated and in some cases output was controlled. To me that isn't much different to a nationalised company. I said before about fascism being the first adopters of this 'third way' and Hitler fits that, or at least fits the Blair model.
Mark_w Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 I wasn't saying the Mother's Cross was evidence of socialism, I was using it as an example of how many of Hitler's ideas came from the nation that at the time was considered the most Marxist one on the planet. The evidence of Hitler's socialism is in all his socialist policies. He had plenty of policies that went completely against socialism as well. I'm not saying he was 'far-right' as we'd view it, but he certainly wasn't 'far-left'. He may have taken ideas from the Soviet Union, but I'm sure he did from the USA and Britain and France as well. Looking at what other countries are doing, does not mean that you advocate the same end goal.
Guest MattP Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 He had plenty of policies that went completely against socialism as well. I'm not saying he was 'far-right' as we'd view it, but he certainly wasn't 'far-left'. I don't think anyone has said that.
Mark_w Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 I don't think anyone has said that. Apologies. I still don't think he was as far to the left as socialism. And I don't see how KingGTF's post above really contradicts that view.
Guest MattP Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 Apologies. I still don't think he was as far to the left as socialism. And I don't see how KingGTF's post above really contradicts that view. It doesn't. (I repped him for the excellent third way point) The objection being made by me is how Hitler is just regarded as 'far right' in almost everything, whereas the truth appears to be somewhat different.
Mark_w Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 It doesn't. (I repped him for the excellent third way point) The objection being made by me is how Hitler is just regarded as 'far right' in almost everything, whereas the truth appears to be somewhat different. Well I've never said that and you still said I was poorly educated so that clearly isn't your only issue.
Guest MattP Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 Well I've never said that and you still said I was poorly educated so that clearly isn't your only issue. That was more a dig at your comments last week calling people who vote for a different political party as you as 'idiots'.
Mark_w Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 That was more a dig at your comments last week calling people who vote for a different political party as you as 'idiots'. Well no it was a dig at me saying the Nazis weren't socialists, which is apparently stupid because 'they have socialists in the name, duh'. I absolutely categorically deny saying that people who vote for a different political party to me are idiots (I don't even know who I'm voting for yet). I just said that people who vote for UKIP are idiots.
Rincewind Posted 17 October 2014 Posted 17 October 2014 That was more a dig at your comments last week calling people who vote for a different political party as you as 'idiots'. I've been called a few names also for not being an outright Tory even though I am not a shard line supporter of any particular party.
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