Asha Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 I've been disappointed on several occasions as my 'away day experience' has been affected by the lack of atmosphere and/or being forced to sit. Even when I've made an effort to get a ticket towards the back, or in areas which I believed would be decent for atmosphere and standing I've been left disappointed. One example I'll use is Forest away. I specifically asked for a ticket in the 'Z2' section (nearest A Block) because I thought that would be good for atmosphere, several comments of such nature were made on here so I made that conscious effort to try and improve the 'experience' for myself. When I got there, I was forced to sit by the people behind me. I wouldn't have been so annoyed but I noticed that pretty much everyone else in the away end was standing, but because of about 50 determined they were going to sit I had no option but to. After protesting this point (along with 3 other lads who were equally annoyed) and offering several solutions to the nearest steward (for example, the four of us moving to a small area of empty seats in the bottom left corner of the away end just under where we were, swapping seats with someone at the back who wanted to sit anyway, and moving to stand at the back). The stewards' solution was to call for further 'backup' and so we ended up with 3 stewards standing pretty much next to each other just in case our frustration at sitting (and watching the game) got too much for us. Derby as well, yes I was standing but the atmosphere was gash. And I was near the back. If it wasn't for SamL in close proximity singing his heart out too I'd have been completely on my own.
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Why should you assume that I have forgotten anything? Until your campaign changes the Football League's views why not just comply with the civil law which provides that all tickets are sold on the basis of complying with the Ground Regulations and the requirements to sit down? Disobeying a police officer is a breach of the criminal law as well. Really? If I stand and I am not drunk, and I am not breaking any public order law, a police officer cannot remove me from a football stadium for breaching ground regulations. They can't even admonish me for it. The only person who can eject me is a steward, acting on behalf of the football club. Fact.
davieG Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 I was responding to DavieG who conceded in his post that standing was a relevant issue in the Taylor Report. Well if you going to twist my words what's the point of discussing it. Wearing the wrong kind of clothes, having 1 extra drink, getting in early, being small, being fat, being short would have all increased your risk of injury and death. Fencing in and serious over crowding were the main causes of so many deaths by a million miles compared to standing. I shall now withdraw from the debate before any ore of y words are twisted.
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 From the Taylor Report: 40. But at what a price! In addition to the poor facilities I described earlier (which are often worse for away than for home fans) the ordinary law-abiding football supporter travelling away is caught up in a police operation reminiscent of a column of prisoners of war being marched and detained under guard. I watched the escort of Arsenal fans after a match at Stamford Bridge. They were held in the ground for thirty-five minutes while the Chelsea supporters left. They were then escorted by a substantial body of police to Fulham Broadway underground station. There, to avoid overcrowding on the platform, they were admitted to the station only in measured groups. Special trains were run to take them non-stop into the centre of the city to avoid clashes at nearby stations. 41. Clearly, the police with their great experience of controlling crowds at the ground considered this strategy was necessary in the present climate. Their views were confirmed in that despite their efficient and good humoured management of the match and its aftermath, scuffles took place when some fans got into the wrong section of the ground. Moreover such police practice is not unique to our country. There are similar hooligan problems for example in Holland. I witnessed a very similar operation carried out by the Dutch police at Utrecht to control a train load of supporters from Eindhoven. 42. Necessary though such operations may presently be, they do nothing to enhance the image of football as a spectator sport followed for entertainment and pleasure. I know of no other sport or entertainment in a civilised country in which it is necessary to keep those attending from attacking each other. Ask anyone who went to Millwall last season how the Taylor Report has improved their matchday experience.
Bert Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Really? If I stand and I am not drunk, and I am not breaking any public order law, a police officer cannot remove me from a football stadium for breaching ground regulations. They can't even admonish me for it. The only person who can eject me is a steward, acting on behalf of the football club. Fact. Like you (I think it was you anyway) said to me too, go and ask them for a copy of the ground rules and regulations.
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Well if you going to twist my words what's the point of discussing it. Wearing the wrong kind of clothes, having 1 extra drink, getting in early, being small, being fat, being short would have all increased your risk of injury and death. Fencing in and serious over crowding were the main causes of so many deaths by a million miles compared to standing. I shall now withdraw from the debate before any ore of y words are twisted. I didn't twist your words. You said that standing was a relevant issue.
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Really? If I stand and I am not drunk, and I am not breaking any public order law, a police officer cannot remove me from a football stadium for breaching ground regulations. They can't even admonish me for it. The only person who can eject me is a steward, acting on behalf of the football club. Fact. It is a criminal offence to disobey a police officer in the execution of his duties. He might consider that a public disorder offence was imminent. Fact.
SamL Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 It is a criminal offence to disobey a police officer in the execution of his duties. He might consider that a public disorder offence was imminent. Fact. The ejection of fans isn't covered by the duties of a Police Officer.
purpleronnie Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 It is a criminal offence to disobey a police officer in the execution of his duties. He might consider that a public disorder offence was imminent. Fact. A fact is a fact. Fact.
davieG Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 I didn't twist your words. You said that standing was a relevant issue. relatively little to do with standing My quote suggesting that it's influence was extremely minor your rephrasing makes it sound as though it was significant which is not what i said and you know it. That is my final words on this!
Vestan Pance Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Standing was relevant to the deaths caused that day - that's good enough for me. Not true, The Taylor Report was far more critical of just about every cause of the disaster than it was on standing. I stood at many big games post Hillsborough and their was a marked improvement it safety and the lower leagues manage it pretty well, proving that safe standing is about controlling numbers and turnstile build-up. All seater stadia for the top 2 divisions was a recommendation to the government as a crowd control measure nothing more. Infact the report it is far more critical of alcohol consumption at football grounds, something that still hasn't been clamped down on enough for my liking, we've all been stuck next to the p*ssed up fan that we would rather is ejected than have to suffer for 90 mins. Although the authorities will never admit it, seating is a great tool in idenitifying offenders, each person has their own space and struggles to move around. That is the main reason I don't thing we will see standing back in the top 2 divisions any time soon.
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Like you (I think it was you anyway) said to me too, go and ask them for a copy of the ground rules and regulations. Yip, it was indeed. It buys you time, and also makes them think they aren't dealing with a pleb. It is a criminal offence to disobey a police officer in the execution of his duties. He might consider that a public disorder offence was imminent. Fact. Wrong. Breach of the peace, maybe, but standing at a football game doesn't constitute a breach of the peace. You'll need to think harder about this one. There is no offence of disobeying a police officer in the execution. Are you getting confused with obstructing a police office in the execution of his duty? In which case, the police can't get involved with persistent standing unless there's public order, breach of the peace or drunk and disorderly. You're losing the argument, and now you're relying on the emotive subject of Hillsborough to back up your argument. I find that pathetic, and an insult to the families who are still trying to get justice for the loved ones that they lost.
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Although the authorities will never admit it, seating is a great tool in idenitifying offenders, each person has their own space and struggles to move around. That is the main reason I don't thing we will see standing back in the top 2 divisions any time soon. Yes. It's not just me.
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Yip, it was indeed. It buys you time, and also makes them think they aren't dealing with a pleb. Wrong. Breach of the peace, maybe, but standing at a football game doesn't constitute a breach of the peace. You'll need to think harder about this one. There is no offence of disobeying a police officer in the execution. Are you getting confused with obstructing a police office in the execution of his duty? In which case, the police can't get involved with persistent standing unless there's public order, breach of the peace or drunk and disorderly. You're losing the argument, and now you're relying on the emotive subject of Hillsborough to back up your argument. I find that pathetic, and an insult to the families who are still trying to get justice for the loved ones that they lost. Have a look at this website www.footballnetwork.org/dev/.../violence_reduce_violence.asp The rights of police officers does not appear to be as clear cut as you suggest. You should comply with the Ground Regulations and fight your campaign from a legitimate position.
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 I am entitled to hold my opinion. It is honestly held. I may not be an Administrator but surely I can express my views.
purpleronnie Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Does anyone know why in lower league clubs they can have large terraces i.e.Carlisle / exeter with 1000's standing every hone game but they wont allow a premiership club to have a small terrace?
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Does anyone know why in lower league clubs they can have large terraces i.e.Carlisle / exeter with 1000's standing every hone game but they wont allow a premiership club to have a small terrace? The Taylor Report only applied to the top two divisions.
purpleronnie Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Have a look at this website www.footballnetwork.org/dev/.../violence_reduce_violence.asp The rights of police officers does not appear to be as clear cut as you suggest. You should comply with the Ground Regulations and fight your campaign from a legitimate position. Why? and waste years just sitting down when you dont want to? I don't see how sitting down would help the cause. Infact it would probabbly hinder it as they would simply state, no-one wants to stand everyone sits at footy now. The Taylor Report only applied to the top two divisions. I understand about the taylor report, but why those 2 divisions? Size of crowds maybe?
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Have a look at this website www.footballnetwork.org/dev/.../violence_reduce_violence.asp The rights of police officers does not appear to be as clear cut as you suggest. You should comply with the Ground Regulations and fight your campaign from a legitimate position. Your link doesn't work. It doesn't alter the fact only stewards have the authority to act on breaches of ground regulations, and the police can step in if a criminal offence takes place. A sober fan, standing and committing no criminal offence cannot be dealt with by the police. I don't know why you refuse to accept this. You are making yourself look silly now. You come across as someone with a bigger chip on his shoulder than than Mr McCain himself. You want to sit at games, fine. But the fact that you can't even accept people standing AND NOT INTERFERING WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE GAME makes my stand against smokers and cyclists look laid back. You don't even have the arguments to back you up, just twisted misinformation.
SamL Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 I am entitled to hold my opinion. It is honestly held. I may not be an Administrator but surely I can express my views. Yes you are entitled to hold your own opinion, but you need to respect the fact that others may not agree and do in fact wish to stand. If you don't like the fact that people prefer to stand, either ask for a ticket near the front or don't turn up to a football match. People are constantly banging on about the fact that there are people who prefer to sit and that their wishes should be respected, but what about the wishes of those who prefer to stand? Why can't you respect our wishes? It might be the case that our wishes our against the regulations of the Health and Safety Executive, but many believe that the regulations are in place in order to cover up for the mistakes made during the Hillsborough Disaster. This is the reason as to why people are continuing to campaign for the introduction of safe standing areas.
purpleronnie Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 It is down to crowd numbers, yes. Seems odd, that 3-4,000 fans could stand in a terracs lower down the divisions but they couldn't have a small 1,000 standing terrace in the premiership? Makes no sense to me.
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Your link doesn't work. It doesn't alter the fact only stewards have the authority to act on breaches of ground regulations, and the police can step in if a criminal offence takes place. A sober fan, standing and committing no criminal offence cannot be dealt with by the police. I don't know why you refuse to accept this. You are making yourself look silly now. You come across as someone with a bigger chip on his shoulder than than Mr McCain himself. You want to sit at games, fine. But the fact that you can't even accept people standing AND NOT INTERFERING WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE GAME makes my stand against smokers and cyclists look laid back. You don't even have the arguments to back you up, just twisted misinformation. Just playing Devil's Advocate to test the strength of your arguments. I think I'll quit while I'm ahead.
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Just playing Devil's Advocate to test the strength of your arguments. I think I'll quit while I'm ahead. Ahead? As for the administrator jibe, which I've only just seen, that just proves my point about chips. I thank you.
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