purpleronnie Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 Door knob! Don't fly off the handle. Last post I'll make but I have to answer this nonsense regarding being positive for growth and the economy, EU migrants yes, vast contribution to the UK. Beyond doubt, but all immigrants? No chance. Non EU migrants actually cost us almost a quarter of what our own population does! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497 As for those who actually repped Frank's post Yeah open borders, let ISIS just wander in, we are all citizens of the World, a truly international community while we throw queers off buildings. You absolute lunatics. Get in the real World, pathetic. Ah ISIS, you knew it wouldn't take long. And has the gaul to try and sound superior. Yep less non EU immigrants and more EU immigrants please.
Harry - LCFC Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 Might not fit in seamlessly to what? Some fictional British identity that a vast number of British people don't identify with anyway? People with different cultural backgrounds may not always get along. It doesn't require one to have some fixed idea of what being British is (as I don't) to recognise this.
Mike Oxlong Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 Don't fly off the handle. Ah ISIS, you knew it wouldn't take long. And has the gaul to try and sound superior. Yep less non EU immigrants and more EU immigrants please. No need to bring the French into this.
Mark_w Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 People with different cultural backgrounds may not always get along. It doesn't require one to have some fixed idea of what being British is (as I don't) to recognise this. People with the same cultural backgrounds may not always get along. I've probably got more in common with 90% of immigrants than I have with MattP for example and I'm English and born to English parents. I find people associated with the BNP and UKIP almost always absolutely intolerable and I don't think either should have a place in British society. There will always be division, but it's not just immigration that causes division and it's certainly not the main cause of division. Surely there has to be something stronger than a minor source of potential division to make this a major issue.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 How brainwashed do you have to be to come out with four words like that? Where did you actually go to school? Did they teach you anything or were you already so tied to these absurd self guilt opinions you deliberately ignored anything about a British identity? As for the original point, it is well worth discussing but until Alf Bentley, Leicsmac, Moose, Captain Pancake, Webbo, Strokes etc (sorry if I missed you, you know who you are) comes back to discuss them properly I'll refrain, I'll leave it for the others to shout silly things at each other like PANNICCCC or yer yer dem immigrants.... In terms of political debate this place has divebombed the last few weeks. The problem with this place is people discuss politics with the maturity of an 8 year old. There's very little balanced or constructive debate with most people being so blinkered in their views that they can't see the merits of the views of other people. I'm not excluding anyone from that criticism cos we all do it from time to time but some posters on both sides have a serious problem with tunnel vision and immaturity. Maybe that reflects society and I expect too much from normal people. I haven't seen any mention of the child poverty figures on here yet though I haven't really looked. I mean the measure is ridiculous but it's down to 2.3 million, lowest since the 1980s. Those damned Tories, the party for the rich.
Frank to be Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 Last post I'll make but I have to answer this nonsense regarding being positive for growth and the economy, EU migrants yes, vast contribution to the UK. Beyond doubt, but all immigrants? No chance. Non EU migrants actually cost us almost a quarter of what our own population does! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497 As for those who actually repped Frank's post Yeah open borders, let ISIS just wander in, we are all citizens of the World, a truly international community while we throw queers off buildings. You absolute lunatics. Get in the real World, pathetic. That's a very negative way of looking at things. Several billion good people and you're worried about a few dozen isis crazies. Why would they come here anyway? As for your chart, that's just tax revenue, it doesn't take into account money made through their labour by British businesses nor does it include money made by British businesses through their purchasing of goods and services. All things being equal, population growth = gdp growth. The Tories needed that immigration to avoid another recession.
Stadt Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 That's a very negative way of looking at things. Several billion good people and you're worried about a few dozen isis crazies. Why would they come here anyway?Are you a troll? a few dozen Isis crazies? those few dozen could still kill thousands of people because they seem to enjoy that.
Frank to be Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 Are you a troll? a few dozen Isis crazies? those few dozen could still kill thousands of people because they seem to enjoy that. The global open border idea is not much more than a thought experiment at this moment in time. It's not practical for a variety of reasons but the idea that if all borders were opened ISIS would stroll into the UK and start killing people is ludicrous. If they wanted to do that they could do it already. We would also still have defences. Possibly, as part of a globalised community, we might have even stronger defences not only physically but also culturally. The current model of every country and culture for itself hasn't been successful at rooting out evil. Maybe a global culture would.
Voll Blau Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 The global open border idea is not much more than a thought experiment at this moment in time. It's not practical for a variety of reasons but the idea that if all borders were opened ISIS would stroll into the UK and start killing people is ludicrous. If they wanted to do that they could do it already. We would also still have defences. Possibly, as part of a globalised community, we might have even stronger defences not only physically but also culturally. The current model of every country and culture for itself hasn't been successful at rooting out evil. Maybe a global culture would. Is that really the case at the moment? Even if what you are suggesting were practical to implement, physical and geographical barriers between ideologies and cultures would still exist. Maybe neighbouring states would get on better in some cases, but it's hardly likely to change the way extremists in the Middle East interact with Western nations and vice versa.
bovril Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 Interesting times ahead, for sure. The difference in birth rates between Europe and the developing World is huge and for the first time in history people can quickly and reasonably cheaply move from continent to continent in hours. Nothing we can do, might as well sit back and enjoy the insanity.
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 That's a very negative way of looking at things. Several billion good people and you're worried about a few dozen isis crazies. Why would they come here anyway? As for your chart, that's just tax revenue, it doesn't take into account money made through their labour by British businesses nor does it include money made by British businesses through their purchasing of goods and services. All things being equal, population growth = gdp growth. The Tories needed that immigration to avoid another recession. What about the cost to the NHS, Education, Crime rate increases, loss of green belt to provide more housing, etc? Your argument is like that of using a holed bucket, for carrying water. Dream away sonny!
Frank to be Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 What about the cost to the NHS, Education, Crime rate increases, loss of green belt to provide more housing, etc? Your argument is like that of using a holed bucket, for carrying water. Dream away sonny! The NHS is full of immigrant workers because we can't train enough ourselves. If anything, more immigration is good news for the NHS. I believe schools with higher levels of immigration actually perform better statistically. Crime rate increases sounds made up. Loss of green belt is an unusual argument. Personally, I think there is still plenty of physical space in this country.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 God I hate staunch right-wingers. What a useful contribution to the discussion. Well done
bovril Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 No evidence that immigration increases crime rates. No evidence that 'benefit tourism' is a real problem. Decent evidence to suggest that a mobile workforce keeps wages low. Good for the few, crappy for most. For me it's a question of culture more than anything. I'm a pretty liberal, secular guy and would prefer immigrants who share my values but each to their own and shit.
purpleronnie Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 What about the cost to the NHS, Education, Crime rate increases, loss of green belt to provide more housing, etc? Your argument is like that of using a holed bucket, for carrying water. Dream away sonny! Facts about the impact on the NHS are there are none , the closest numbers we have don't limit the cost just to immigrants but includes countries which the United Kingdom has a reciprocal agreement and also health tourists, so it's almost impossible to say, if you just take health tourism it's a tiny part of the NHS budget (less than 1%). A lot of the other numbers mentioned have a huge amount of assumptions. Funny that new immigration rules that will mean lower-earning non-EU workers being deported will exacerbate the shortage of nurses in the UK and cost the NHS tens of millions in recruitment. As for education the educational achievement of native children is almost completely unaffected by the presence of immigrant children. There is however a larger demand on school places due to increases in the fertility rates, but good planning can easily cope with the increases. Crime rates have fallen dramatically since the mid 1990's. The government both past and present fail to build enough houses, people are living longer etc...The House of Lords report highlights that, on average, migrants demand less housing than UK-born people. Often live in larger numbers per household than native born brit's.
foxinexile Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 I used to work at a hostel for homeless men in Leeds. We accommodated men from all walks of life: those who were homeless through relationship breakdowns; those who had been released from prison; those who suffered from alcohol/drug addiction; those who had mental health problems; those who had been granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK. The hostel had 36 rooms and the aim was to "support" clients into their own independent accommodation within six months. All were claiming benefits: housing benefit to pay for the (vast) majority of the hostel rent; JSA; ESA; DLA. The refugees came from many countries: Iraq, Iran, Syria, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, North Korea, Latin American countries, Belarus - a "melting pot" as such. I worked there for three years, and for every refugee I worked with, to a man, they shared the same goal: To secure their own accommodation and to secure a job. I never knew a single one that failed in this ambition. There was a lot of violence working there (a major factor in me leaving in the end), mainly from clients with alcohol addiction, anger management issues etc. To a man, these individuals were white British. I never once came across a refugee who caused any problems for the staff or the greater community within which the hostel was based. Maybe we got lucky, and believe me I don't view this through a biased opinion, but it affirmed in my mind one thing: many people's opinions regarding asylum seekers/immigration are wrong. These opinions are based on what the media "reports" and are swallowed verbatim and repeated without thought to what is being said. I'm no "leftie", but through my own eyes and experience of refugees, immigration overall is a positive outcome for the UK.
Harry - LCFC Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 People with the same cultural backgrounds may not always get along. I've probably got more in common with 90% of immigrants than I have with MattP for example and I'm English and born to English parents. I find people associated with the BNP and UKIP almost always absolutely intolerable and I don't think either should have a place in British society. There will always be division, but it's not just immigration that causes division and it's certainly not the main cause of division. Surely there has to be something stronger than a minor source of potential division to make this a major issue. I tend to find I get on with families that are fairly new here too. But I think the reason for that is because most are keen to buy into the culture that already exists here. I suspect the reason you and most young people find it easy to make friends with migrants is because most of them take part in the same activities that everyone else does. I'm not particularly bothered my immigration per se, what I focus on is integration.
Wymsey Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 I think if a school teenager (15/16) is pregnant, they should be taught/warned of what's expected of them to be a 'good, caring Mother' prior to labor time - preferably by support workers. Read a story where one 16-year-old abandoned her baby daughter in a pram by a river, and she went missing - really is mindblowing. It's needed a Britain has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe, and to avoid more and more of this disgrace happening.
Stadt Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 I knew that was coming and it is hypocritical but I don't like how areas almost become exclusively for immigrants, these areas tend to look rough too, we've got enough of our own people that don't look after where they live.
purpleronnie Posted 25 June 2015 Posted 25 June 2015 I knew that was coming and it is hypocritical but I don't like how areas almost become exclusively for immigrants, these areas tend to look rough too, we've got enough of our own people that don't look after where they live. Everyone is insular. But the main reason for immigrant segregation is economics.
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