m1 accident

[Nick]

I agree with Thracian. If we rid the roads of young people, inexperienced drivers, 'foreigners', women and the elderly, things will improve for any demographics left.

[Sir Fynwy]

I agree with Thracian. If we rid the roads of young people, inexperienced drivers, 'foreigners', women and the elderly, things will improve for any demographics left.

Should also get people who've drunk far too much Barbars off the road, I've known 4 regular drink drivers in my life 3 are dead and the other is thrac

[Rocket-Ron]

I probably drive more miles than most Foxtalkers. One of the benefits of living in Leicester is you can get anywhere and back in a day. Yes I'm an Audi knob! I do make mistakes and appreciate that other people will make mistakes. But the sheer volume of people using cars on our busy roads in this country means it's actually a very well structured and safe place to drive in the world. 

 

But again, a 70 plus driver causes the fatality of a young man. It's heartbreaking!

Accidents happen for many reasons and poor judgements. But this isn't poor judgment or a mistake. This is giving a ton of metal to someone who never took a driving test. Because of the war driving tests were suspended between 1939 and 1945 with no age limit to drive.

 

If he was 70 he would have only been born in 1945

Edit: 87 my mistake sorry, move on

[MC Prussian]

Seen from the outside, unfortunately, this is rather UK-specific (but not only). I agree with the notion that elderly people are required to check with doctors more often as they get older, because no matter how fit you are or you think you are, your body will ultimately act differently at a certain point.

 

What makes matters worse in the UK is the lack of travel alternatives. In a society that relies so heavily on cars and trucks and that offers a somewhat limited public transportation system, traffic accidents will unfortunately remain the norm. I'm saying this because I'm spoiled with options in Switzerland.

 

From my point of view, owning a car is not a basic human right (although some will surely oppose that view heavily and argue that they need the car for work - can't blame them for that).

 

I wish there was more intercity or regional buses or trains running on a more frequent or at least reliable schedule at better prices in the UK. At the moment, there's little incentive for (older) people to switch their own steering wheel for a place on a bus, train (or tram, for the ones old enough to remember what a tram is ). Then they wouldn't be "forced" to roam the city streets and endanger the people around them with their potentially highly dangerous driving as much as they do pose a threat to the general public right now.

[Thracian]

Old man demonstrates his incompetence by driving the wrong way along a motorway = massive reaction against older drivers.  

 

Youngist woman demonstrates her incompetence by hogging the centre lane and nosing her windscreen because she's struggling to see/read the roadsigns = indifference.

 

Conclusion = clear discrimination against older drivers.

 

Absolutely nothing I've seen each and every day suggests that older drivers are less competent than others on the roads. Indeed one poster says it's been shown that they're actually safer.

 

I don't have figures to back that up and would question it anyway because there's an argument which says it's not the slower driver or the centre-lane road hog who actually has the accident, but they might well be a factor in causing the accident that someone else gets blamed for.

 

Great Boos Up actually made a good point when he said that the sheer volume of traffic makes our roads relatively safe if not pleasant to drive on.

 

Even getting into second gear in the town where I live has become difficult because the roads are constantly obstructed and if there's not some sort of hazard the highways authority makes one to the point that it's arguably faster to cycle now, just as it is in Leicester.

 

Besides, my oldest son's awaiting delivery of an electric Tatra and reckons we'll all be driving robotised electric cars in 10/15 years - cars that will automatically keep you away from trouble.

 

His car will take power from being plugged into his own solar electric system and his fuel consumption will be zero, thus theoretically saving him thousands on his current petrol powered Audi. I'll actually believe the cash benefits when I see them but they will be cleaner and, presumably,  safer.         

[Jon the Hat]

I can only think the old duffer joined at junction 23a.  Not sure how it's even possible to join the M1 there the wrong way.  I'm not even sure you could, even if you wanted to.

 

My father-in-law, well into his 70's & driving regulalrly with a serious cataract problem.  He can't watch telly properly, has his nose about 2" from the computer screen & I reckon I could walk past him on the same pavement & he'd have no idea it was me.  There's no way he should be on the road.  Everyone is pleading with him to go get his eyes lasered, but he's frit shit & won't go.

 

I've never been in his car with him anyway, but I've told the rest of the family to refuse getting in the car with him driving........or even grass him up to the DVLA.  I feel obliged to do it myself but it's awkward for me & feel it would better if it came from someone closer "because they care".

 

Do it.  How would you feel if he killed someone?

[Jon the Hat]

Old man demonstrates his incompetence by driving the wrong way along a motorway = massive reaction against older drivers.  

 

Youngist woman demonstrates her incompetence by hogging the centre lane and nosing her windscreen because she's struggling to see/read the roadsigns = indifference.

 

Conclusion = clear discrimination against older drivers.

 

Absolutely nothing I've seen each and every day suggests that older drivers are less competent than others on the roads. Indeed one poster says it's been shown that they're actually safer.

 

I don't have figures to back that up and would question it anyway because there's an argument which says it's not the slower driver or the centre-lane road hog who actually has the accident, but they might well be a factor in causing the accident that someone else gets blamed for.

 

Great Boos Up actually made a good point when he said that the sheer volume of traffic makes our roads relatively safe if not pleasant to drive on.

 

Even getting into second gear in the town where I live has become difficult because the roads are constantly obstructed and if there's not some sort of hazard the highways authority makes one to the point that it's arguably faster to cycle now, just as it is in Leicester.

 

Besides, my oldest son's awaiting delivery of an electric Tatra and reckons we'll all be driving robotised electric cars in 10/15 years - cars that will automatically keep you away from trouble.

 

His car will take power from being plugged into his own solar electric system and his fuel consumption will be zero, thus theoretically saving him thousands on his current petrol powered Audi. I'll actually believe the cash benefits when I see them but they will be cleaner and, presumably,  safer.         

 

Come off it.  It is not an over reaction to say it would be sensible to work out a way to take people who are not physically competent to drive off the road.  You can list a long list of driving issues including the stupidity and incompetence of younger drivers, but none of them detract from the fact that if you have eyesight issues or your judgement is impaired by Alzheimer's or similar you should not be driving.

[ramboacdc]

RIP.

 

The new layout at Kegworth (next to Hilton Hotel) is a confusing, horrible one to go around.

that 24A or 24? 24 is horrible now! i avoid it by coming off the a42 just before the m1 and crossing the dual carrigeway. 

[pSinatra]

Do it.  How would you feel if he killed someone?

 

Last night, I probably gave it a bit more thought than usual.......following this latest tragedy.

 

He must have had a few near-misses, because one of them was with me!  I was driving through Elmsthorpe towards Stoney Stanton & there was a tractor coming in the opposite direction.  I could see there was a bit of a queue to overtake the tractor & as I got about 50 yards from the tractor some silly old twat went to overtake it.  I had to brake sharply, but luckily he spotted me & dodged back behind the tractor in time.  It was the father-in-law.

 

He is an accident waiting to happen & I wouldn't be able to live with myself.  As would be the case for the rest of the family.  He might even kill a member of his own family - his own granddaughter?

 

It might mean me looking for somewhere else to live, but I'm going to do it.

 

Here's the web address for anyone else with similar concerns https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla/cegemail/dvla/en/drivers_med_03.html

[Vicki Vixen]

Seen from the outside, unfortunately, this is rather UK-specific (but not only). I agree with the notion that elderly people are required to check with doctors more often as they get older, because no matter how fit you are or you think you are, your body will ultimately act differently at a certain point.

What makes matters worse in the UK is the lack of travel alternatives. In a society that relies so heavily on cars and trucks and that offers a somewhat limited public transportation system, traffic accidents will unfortunately remain the norm. I'm saying this because I'm spoiled with options in Switzerland.

From my point of view, owning a car is not a basic human right (although some will surely oppose that view heavily and argue that they need the car for work - can't blame them for that).

I wish there was more intercity or regional buses or trains running on a more frequent or at least reliable schedule at better prices in the UK. At the moment, there's little incentive for (older) people to switch their own steering wheel for a place on a bus, train (or tram, for the ones old enough to remember what a tram is ). Then they wouldn't be "forced" to roam the city streets and endanger the people around them with their potentially highly dangerous driving as much as they do pose a threat to the general public right now.

The Swiss are hardly immune. I travel to Switzerland every month for work and regularly see clueless drivers pulling out of sidestreets without looking, parking on the pavement because they can't find a parking space within 10 metres of the grocery store, and generally having complete disregard to pedestrians.

Also the UK has one of the lowest rate of road fatalities (as a % of the population) in Europe, so this is clearly not just a UK issue. See page 15 of this report http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN02198/SN02198.pdf

[Jon the Hat]

Last night, I probably gave it a bit more thought than usual.......following this latest tragedy.

 

He must have had a few near-misses, because one of them was with me!  I was driving through Elmsthorpe towards Stoney Stanton & there was a tractor coming in the opposite direction.  I could see there was a bit of a queue to overtake the tractor & as I got about 50 yards from the tractor some silly old twat went to overtake it.  I had to brake sharply, but luckily he spotted me & dodged back behind the tractor in time.  It was the father-in-law.

 

He is an accident waiting to happen & I wouldn't be able to live with myself.  As would be the case for the rest of the family.  He might even kill a member of his own family - his own granddaughter?

 

It might mean me looking for somewhere else to live, but I'm going to do it.

 

Here's the web address for anyone else with similar concerns https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla/cegemail/dvla/en/drivers_med_03.html

 

Good man, you don't have to tell anyone!!

[davieG]

I wonder how much of this goes on.

 

 

 

 

Sussex Police release drug driving death crash video

• 12 October 2015
•  
• From the sectionEngland

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Media captionKyle Careford is seen driving Michael Owen's car

A video showing the moments before two men died in a drug-fuelled crash as they sped at 90mph through the West Sussex countryside, has been released.

Kyle Careford, 20, and Michael Owen, 21, from Tunbridge Wells, died in the crash in Rotherfield Road, Crowborough, in April.

The video, released by Sussex Police with the support of the men's families, was filmed on Mr Owen's phone.

Both men died instantly as the Renault Clio crashed into a church wall.

Sussex Police said Mr Careford, who was driving, did not have a licence.

Image captionThe Renault Clio left the road and crashed into a church wall

The footage shows the two men laughing and singing, as Mr Owen appears to give his friend a driving lesson.

The car careered off the road just after Mr Owen asked the driver to slow down.

Both men had taken a "cocktail" of prescribed and illegal drugs, police said.

Mr Owen's mother Kat said she "blames" both of the men for the "decisions they made".

"If all this stops one person from making the same mistake, then some good has come from showing this video," she said.

"I'm hoping it will have an impact on young people and make them see that a bit of fun can have such devastating consequences.

Image copyrightSussex PoliceImage captionKyle Careford and Michael Owen were pronounced dead at the scene

"Watching the video was very upsetting, but I'm hoping it can be used in a positive way, by showing young people what could happen to them."

Mr Careford's brother Zac Hemming, added: "This footage or anything of its kind should never be recorded, let alone watched.

"However, despite the pain of it being broadcast by the media, we as a family just hope and pray that this will connect with at least one person out there, young or old, so that no-one ever has to experience the unthinkable pain of losing someone so close and dearly loved."

Police said witnesses reported seeing the car at various times in the hours leading up to the crash.

A taxi driver said he had been forced off the carriageway by a speeding red car on the wrong side of the road.

A woman also witnessed the car doing "doughnuts" in a car park in Crowborough.

 

 

[Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo]

Good riddance, sounds like it couldn't have gone any better - 2 idiots off the road for good and no one else harmed

[Carl the Llama]

When you say tests, do you mean a full driving test? I agree that the elderly should prove that they are still capable of being safe to drive, but I can't see how a full driving test even every five years for those of retirement age can be realistic.

It ought to be somewhere between that and a medical examination imo.

The I hope the dvla are seriously considering something but in fairness, I don't know where they can start. If they take it upon themselves, they'll soon buckle. The alternative puts even more stress on the NHS.

I'm making the assumption that the further along the scale you get, the less likely people are to still be driving anyway, so the less of a strain it is on the system.  Regarding the DVLA, when my Grandad got re-tested the testing centre was far from heaving, in fact there was only one other person being tested at the time, so I'm dubious it would put too much pressure on the DVLA if these things can be arranged for similar typically slow periods at the testing centre.   At the moment when a person hits 70 they do have to renew their licence.  But before the govt gives them the new licence they have to prove their ability to... comply with bureaucracy and fill in a form and attach a photograph to it.  That's it.  Unfortunately the UK currently relies solely on personal initiative and/or members of the person in question's family.  Here's how elderly testing is currently done:

 

Driving Assessment for the Elderly

You can find peace of mind by having your parent’s driving assessed by a professional.  What’s more, if a GP refers someone for driving assessment then it becomes an official matter and consequently you will not be charged – the fees will be met by government.  The GP should refer a driver in need of assessment to the DVLA, who will then arrange a test free of charge.  Not all GPs are aware of this, so be sure to mention it!

 

Assessment takes place at your local centre and is designed to be friendly and supportive.  The person being tested is greeted warmly, offered refreshments and generally helped to feel at ease and not like they’re suddenly back at school again for an exam!

 

The assessment team will usually comprise an occupational therapist and a driving advisor.  The starting point is a detailed discussion with the person being tested to develop a sound understanding of their driving needs.  Then testing takes place in a dual-control car to establish how that person deals with driving conditions.

 

At the end of the assessment the team will discuss the outcome.  If the determination is that the person is not fit to drive then the DVLA has to be notified and their driving licence revoked.  It is important to remember that this is in everyone’s interests and for that person to continue to drive would put them and others at serious risk.

 

However, in many cases this is not the outcome.  Frequently elderly people can stay on the roads with some help, which Driveability can advise you on. 

 

 

So it's good that they give you the incentive to intervene by having costs covered by the govt, but I still think a more robust system stands to be put in place for the people who inevitable will fall through the net.  It just makes sense to me, I'd rather have a few upset geriatrics than another perfectly avoidable death.

[Parafox]

From personal experience, the majority of fatal collisions I have attended have involved people between 20 and 50 and of those the majority have been motorcyclists.

 

The vast majority of non-fatal collisions where injury has occurred involved at least one driver aged been between 50 and 80 yrs old.

 

The most frequent comment I have heard from the older drivers has been "he came out of nowhere", which speaks volumes IMO.

 

The last collision I went to last week on the M42 was a guy in his 70's who pulled out from a layby directly in front of a van travelling at 60mph and was hit very hard from behind. Van driver said he just pulled out and didn't even look...

 

Fortunately there were no significant injuries to either party

[Thracian]

Come off it.  It is not an over reaction to say it would be sensible to work out a way to take people who are not physically competent to drive off the road.  You can list a long list of driving issues including the stupidity and incompetence of younger drivers, but none of them detract from the fact that if you have eyesight issues or your judgement is impaired by Alzheimer's or similar you should not be driving.

 

 

How conveniently you ignore the physical and mental limitations of everyone but the elderly. I'm sorry Jon but I meet these people on a daily basis. People with anger management problems, drug problems, domestic problems, money problems, medical problems and other problems that effect their judgement or concentration.

People who struggle to even get into and out of a car or to turn their heads to see into their blind spot. People with emphysema or asthma who suffer breathing problems or others susceptible to panic attacks and claustrophobia and so many more things.

And there's countless younger people with eyesight problems caused by all sorts of things from something serious like diabetes to simple short sightedness. Every Middle Eastern person I seem to meet has eyesight problems but they're by no means alone. 

You notice it on a market stall.

People who don't wear their glasses out of vanity/convenience but can't read or see anything properly when it's more than three feet away. People who want to buy a watch and ask me to read the maker's name because they can't see it or to tell them the colour of a stone because it's not clear to them.

People with physical limitations tend to drive more cautiously anyway but far more dangerous are the kids who have a row with their partners and go screaming off down the road in reaction.

So much carnage has been caused in this way - and by people in a state of depression for various reasons. So why the focus on people who tend to drive more sedately or cautiously the older they get.

Of course I wish the authorities would do more to encourage healthy living and a longer life before decay.

I wish they'd ban smoking, stop causing the pollution from endless miles of roadworks, stop covering the City with dust by turning it into a building site, stop allowing food manufacters to lace their products with endless sugar and other shit,  and insist on a rapid turnover to automated electric power so we can do away with the polluting influence of poisonous machines which they have irresponsibly sanctioned for far too long just to keep people in work and the taxes flooding in. 

But even with all this, some would still want to **** the lives of the elderly...most of whom have well earned the right to a bit of leisure, relaxation and consideration well away from the strains of the workplace.

One person who, this time, happened to be elderly, drove the wrong way down a motorway. The other millions didn't.

If one head case - or even two or three - decapitates a solder in the high street, does that give us excuse to victimise everyone else we consider wacko? And if we jail a sacked worker for murdering his former boss as a result of his frustration and depression, does that justify jailing every other sacked man as a precaution? It's nothing short of draconian over-reaction.      

Yesterday's incident was a sad tragedy and quite possibly the result of the sort of simple mistake we all make, young and old, at times. What is it about today's society that has to over-react so dramatically?  Before television or social media only a comparatively few people would have heard of it. Now it's as if we need to do something to appease our consciences and shortcomings about everything.       

.

[Parafox]

How conveniently you ignore the physical and mental limitations of everyone but the elderly. I'm sorry Jon but I meet these people on a daily basis. People with anger management problems, drug problems, domestic problems, money problems, medical problems and other problems that effect their judgement or concentration.

People who struggle to even get into and out of a car or to turn their heads to see into their blind spot. People with emphysema or asthma who suffer breathing problems or others susceptible to panic attacks and claustrophobia and so many more things.

And there's countless younger people with eyesight problems caused by all sorts of things from something serious like diabetes to simple short sightedness. Every Middle Eastern person I seem to meet has eyesight problems but they're by no means alone. 

You notice it on a market stall.

People who don't wear their glasses out of vanity/convenience but can't read or see anything properly when it's more than three feet away. People who want to buy a watch and ask me to read the maker's name because they can't see it or to tell them the colour of a stone because it's not clear to them.

People with physical limitations tend to drive more cautiously anyway but far more dangerous are the kids who have a row with their partners and go screaming off down the road in reaction.

So much carnage has been caused in this way - and by people in a state of depression for various reasons. So why the focus on people who tend to drive more sedately or cautiously the older they get.

Of course I wish the authorities would do more to encourage healthy living and a longer life before decay.

I wish they'd ban smoking, stop causing the pollution from endless miles of roadworks, stop covering the City with dust by turning it into a building site, stop allowing food manufacters to lace their products with endless sugar and other shit,  and insist on a rapid turnover to automated electric power so we can do away with the polluting influence of poisonous machines which they have irresponsibly sanctioned for far too long just to keep people in work and the taxes flooding in. 

But even with all this, some would still want to **** the lives of the elderly...most of whom have well earned the right to a bit of leisure, relaxation and consideration well away from the strains of the workplace.

One person who, this time, happened to be elderly, drove the wrong way down a motorway. The other millions didn't.

If one head case - or even two or three - decapitates a solder in the high street, does that give us excuse to victimise everyone else we consider wacko? And if we jail a sacked worker for murdering his former boss as a result of his frustration and depression, does that justify jailing every other sacked man as a precaution? It's nothing short of draconian over-reaction.      

Yesterday's incident was a sad tragedy and quite possibly the result of the sort of simple mistake we all make, young and old, at times. What is it about today's society that has to over-react so dramatically?  Before television or social media only a comparatively few people would have heard of it. Now it's as if we need to do something to appease our consciences and shortcomings about everything.       

.

 

Do you have anger issues?

[Carl the Llama]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You must be being deliberately obtuse now Thracian.  How many times does it need to be made clear to you that our concern is with the natural degradation of physical and mental abilities as one gets older?  

 

Yes people of other ages experience a decline in ability for various reasons. When it happens to a 50 year old though, it's not the result of a gradual ageing process. You can't reasonably predict that someone will suddenly become a danger on the roads at that age because it represents somewhat of a medical irregularity.

 

But the ageing process is so entirely predictable that accidents caused by people not realising they should no longer be behind the wheel should be very simple to avoid with a small application of common sense.

[Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo]

Thracian - this isn't about jihadists executing people or people with asthma having panic attacks, why are you bringing up loads of unrelatable things? 

 

 

 

But even with all this, some would still want to **** the lives of the elderly...most of whom have well earned the right to a bit of leisure, relaxation and consideration well away from the strains of the workplace.

 

We don't want to "**** the lives of the elderly". No elderly person has "earned the right" to drive up the motorway the wrong way and kill someone as a result of their outrageously poor judgement.

 

I'm saying there comes a time in most people's lives where driving on public roads is no longer safe due to one's deterioration in vision, reaction times and judgement, and for those who don't choose to stop driving at this point, stronger measures should be taken to take these people off the road. I don't see how you can argue against this.

[Babylon]

Yes, there are some bad elderly drivers. But I'd imagine the accidents caused by them is minimal compared to those caused by utter arseholes, or those that seemingly just don't know the rules of the road. I only passed about 8 months ago and can't believe how bad the roads actually are.

 

Do we have any facts about the number of accidents caused by deteriorating health of the elderly, or as Thracian says is this a large overreaction to one incident?

 

If the accident numbers are minimal, there is no way the government will set up any scheme to test potentially 10-15 million people every couple of years for the rest of their lives. Yes it seems like common sense to do so, but it's just not feasible.

 

The reality is most people probably stop driving because they know they no longer can do safely or their family force them to stop. Any fatal accidents are probably few and far between, yes it's not nice for it to happen and people will say it would be avoidable if tests were brought in. Well deaths via drink driving would be avoidable if we banned booze, but that won't happen either.

[Babylon]

stronger measures should be taken to take these people off the road. I don't see how you can argue against this.

How? There are about 15 million people over the age of 60 and that number is growing all the time. It's impossible to retest everyone.

 

When they reach 70 they currently have to reapply for a license (and every three years after that), at which time they declare whether they are fit to drive or not and they are asked about eyesight etc. If someone chooses to lie then it unfortunately there isn't much you can do about it. It's like someone choosing to drive when boozing or on drugs, you can't stop everyone when individuals are making poor choices.

[Jon the Hat]

Thrac can argue with anything.

 

I didn't even mention the elderly in my post!  Any rules should apply just as well to someone in their 20s as in their 80s.

[Bellend Sebastian]

Could it be that there are lots of people of no particular demographic that present a problem?

 

More blue sky Bellend thinking for you there

[Thracian]

 

I'm making the assumption that the further along the scale you get, the less likely people are to still be driving anyway, so the less of a strain it is on the system.  Regarding the DVLA, when my Grandad got re-tested the testing centre was far from heaving, in fact there was only one other person being tested at the time, so I'm dubious it would put too much pressure on the DVLA if these things can be arranged for similar typically slow periods at the testing centre.   At the moment when a person hits 70 they do have to renew their licence.  But before the govt gives them the new licence they have to prove their ability to... comply with bureaucracy and fill in a form and attach a photograph to it.  That's it.  Unfortunately the UK currently relies solely on personal initiative and/or members of the person in question's family.  Here's how elderly testing is currently done:

 

 

So it's good that they give you the incentive to intervene by having costs covered by the govt, but I still think a more robust system stands to be put in place for the people who inevitable will fall through the net.  It just makes sense to me, I'd rather have a few upset geriatrics than another perfectly avoidable death.

 

 

 

If "School snitch syndrome" takes effect there won't be anyone on the roads in a few months time!   

Seriously, of course people should have a word when a family member is clearly starting to put their own and other people's lives at risk with their actions.

 

But that has nothing to do with their age - it's to do with competence and their sense of responsibility.

 

As I've got older I hardly drink any alcohol and none before driving. I don't smoke, always wear my glasses, work out twice a day, drive more sedately and try to leave a greater margin for error whatever the situation. Indeed, ideally, I drive when there's hardly anyone else on the road. It reminds me of the good old days!   

 

With the rednecks who don't take any responsibility and the daft things even seemingly sound people do on the roads every day. at least those precautions offer the chance of survival, if only short term 'til the bogeyman comes with the doctrinal thought police. 

 

I'm surprised the nation still puts up with old people in any part of life be it driving a car, flying off on holiday or spending their hard-earned pensions as they choose instead of having it taxed out of them as some would wish.

 

Actually the insurers are systematically making it harder and harder for anyone old and less than perfect...as if perfection actually exists in anyone else! 

 

Indeed, a form of Hitlerism is alive and well and living in the two-faced society of today.

 

The only thing good about old folk, is the chance to squeeze money out of them at every opportunity like pre-paid funeral costs, life (or is it death) insurance, reverse mortgages, £900 for a denture plate and a bloody fortune for implants that cost damn all overseas.

 

Grab the cash while they've got some and put them to sleep as fast as possible when its gone.

 

You can understand the thinking of course.

 

The old uns are lost to the workplace, don't want to buy much for all that they're urged to, occupy houses that could be better utilised by whole families of refugees and cost a fortune to maintain both in money and high-value nurses who could be  much more productively engaged dealing with traumatised women and children from the Middle East.

            

In other words they're a financial waste of time and money and a sodding nuisance on the roads cos there's so many of em. 

 

Hell, many are not even on Facebook.  

[Thracian]

Do you have anger issues?

 

Do you have anger issues?

 

 

 

What you call anger some would call passion.