Jon the Hat Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 It's a lesser concern for me. Why have you challenged that one? I don't disagree necessarily. One of the biggest costs to the NHS is locum costs for having to stretch the workforce further than it can already go, I don't see how providing a 7/7 elective service makes economic sense when we're spending a fortune staffing what we have already. I raised that because things like that are part of why people perceive Doctors to have a sense of entitlement. I hear everyone saying it isn't about money, but if you already work the long hours etc then it isn't about that, and I don't really buy the argument that it is the good of the NHS which is the highest priority of the BMA. If you want better conditions, then the short answer I guess is more doctors. You have to look at the overall costs of providing the service. Yes staffing is very expensive, but you also have to get the most out of your very expensive facilities. Having operating theatres, outpatients clinics etc. sitting empty 28% of the time is not cheap. As someone who works long hours, being able to get a hospital appointment at the weekend would be very helpful.
Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 A hospital appointment for what? The primary concern of the BMA isn't the good of the NHS, it's the welfare of it's members. We're already contractually and morally obliged to consider the patient first in everything we do, not to mention the various external agencies like the GMC, CQC etc. I know very few doctors that don't put patients first. Your perception of a sense of entitlement is irrelevant to me, to be quite honest, I'm striking because I don't want to be forced into a contract that lengthens my hours, reduces my pay, removes safeguards against safe hours which protects patient safety and shifts material away from emergency care towards other areas based on flawed logic,because I will not accept a department of health that recklessly misinterprets evidence and puts patients at risk and because I am not happy that we have been given no alternative by a Government that thinks nothing of lying and making up evidence and will not engage in fair negotiation, I will not accept the blame for the Government finding it's manifesto promise is illogical, irrational and unachievable.
Rincewind Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Col, you replied to Moose yet quoted my name. I do not know what doctors earn. But it is not that that riles me it is spending 12 billion on some war planes when there are so many other services that are being cut. But What do I know I will leave this for the rest of you to discuss.
Webbo Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Maybe, but he does allude to the important point of government priorities. The NHS is in a financial mess because the UK offers a wide range of services "free" to a great extent. Maybe junior doctors are paid too much but without question they are asked to work or be on call for far too long. Perhaps the correct course of action is to reduce the consecutive hours "on call" and pay doctors a reasonable wage (whether that is more or less than at present) for a reasonable work load. This of course would mean employing many more doctors (or shipping them in from the developing world) which will still mean the NHS has a financial nightmare. Looks like it's time to answer the question as to how important the NHS is to the UK, Should we move to a "pay" system where the rich get the treatment and the poor die or whether we should be putting our resources into certain medical areas and not others (for example - leave (help) terminally ill patients to die earlier, decide that certain patient's operations are "unproductive" and they are merely a drain on limited resources - certain handicaps). Kens comments had nothing to do with the issues. It was just the usual vacuous bullshit he comes out with because he thinks it makes him sound clever.
Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Stop bagging the planes, they're good planes. You can't show up to war in some 2nd hand high-mileage ex-Soviet shed
Guest Col city fan Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Col, you replied to Moose yet quoted my name. I do not know what doctors earn. But it is not that that riles me it is spending 12 billion on some war planes when there are so many other services that are being cut. But What do I know I will leave this for the rest of you to discuss. Sorry mate. My bad
Guest Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 We knew that when we started. As long as I'm safe and rested I accept the hours. I wouldn't strike for hours in isolation. Personally I think that's counter-productive. More doctors, less hours, reasonable pay.
Guest Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Stop bagging the planes, they're good planes. You can't show up to war in some 2nd hand high-mileage ex-Soviet shed Show up to what war? The war against Terrorism in Europe? I thought he was talking about Cameron's plane though.
Rincewind Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Sorry mate. My bad Thats OK. I think I will leave this to the ones that do the job. Again I agree with Bryn about the conditions. It is the same for the police fire service etc and spending money on other things reduces the amount available and when that happens it puts the public lives at risk so it does have something to do with it. I do not appreciate being called stupid because I have concerns about cuts whilst money is wasted elsewhere. I do not consider that as a joke or cool. I don't know about anyone else but I would rather taxpayers money go towards things that benefit all and not just a few. Am I wrong in wanting that?
Crinklyfox Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Personally I'm worried about anything that damages or has the potential to damage the NHS. Over the past couple of decades I've watched the rise in the private medical sector, fuelled by the 'scare' that the NHS can't provide a timely service for those in need. Private medical insurance has helped create a two-tier system, and I believe that there are many doctors in the NHS who also spend some of their time in private practice. My wife was a nurse in the NHS for almost 40 years and she believes that the service provided now is not the same as when she started, mainly due to financial pressures. Downgrading of the NHS will inevitably create a system where the 'haves' (those with money, in employment and relatively well) prosper and the 'have-nots' (those who an unemployed, in low paid employment or retired) have to make do. As we age we are more likely to require medical care, and the insurance companies that control the private sector want little to do with us as we are higher risk and more likely to have existing medical conditions. I've benefitted from the NHS several times in my lifetime and am grateful for the care provided. I want the same NHS care to be available to my children as they age. So if we have to suffer a little inconvenience in the form of strike action for a few days in order to achieve that then that's fine by me.
Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Show up to what war? The war against Terrorism in Europe? I thought he was talking about Cameron's plane though. I don't know about this particular news piece, but when people say money is being "wasted" on expensive military planes, there's a reason that top of the range fighter jets and bombers cost what they do. You can't skimp on that kind of thing. My post was sort of a joke, but I'm not against investing in high-end military equipment. It's like insurance
Jon the Hat Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Personally I'm worried about anything that damages or has the potential to damage the NHS. Over the past couple of decades I've watched the rise in the private medical sector, fuelled by the 'scare' that the NHS can't provide a timely service for those in need. Private medical insurance has helped create a two-tier system, and I believe that there are many doctors in the NHS who also spend some of their time in private practice. My wife was a nurse in the NHS for almost 40 years and she believes that the service provided now is not the same as when she started, mainly due to financial pressures. Downgrading of the NHS will inevitably create a system where the 'haves' (those with money, in employment and relatively well) prosper and the 'have-nots' (those who an unemployed, in low paid employment or retired) have to make do. As we age we are more likely to require medical care, and the insurance companies that control the private sector want little to do with us as we are higher risk and more likely to have existing medical conditions. I've benefitted from the NHS several times in my lifetime and am grateful for the care provided. I want the same NHS care to be available to my children as they age. So if we have to suffer a little inconvenience in the form of strike action for a few days in order to achieve that then that's fine by me. I don't think many people would disagree with your sentiments. The question is how to take an NHS with already massive and growing budget and make it affordable for the next 50 years. Also agree it care has got worse in many respects, but then Nursing also moved on massively as a profession, and care has fallen down the list of priorities.
MooseBreath Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Sorry mate. My bad It's me you should be apologising to really mate, given you confused me with the rincemeister.
MooseBreath Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I'm pretty sure the £12bn the rincedog is talking about is the addition military spending required to defeat IS, some of which will go on planes. I'm sure Cameron would rather not have to spend that money on defeating IS but after recent events it has increasing public support. I dare say the average citizen fears more the threat from IS than they do the threat that a junior doctor might apply a bandage incorrectly because she's a bit tired.
Rincewind Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 It's me you should be apologising to really mate, given you confused me with the rincemeister. You should take that label as a compliment.
Jon the Hat Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I'm pretty sure the £12bn the rincedog is talking about is the addition military spending required to defeat IS, some of which will go on planes. I'm sure Cameron would rather not have to spend that money on defeating IS but after recent events it has increasing public support. I dare say the average citizen fears more the threat from IS than they do the threat that a junior doctor might apply a bandage incorrectly because she's a bit tired. I'm always somewhat dubious about quoted costs of war etc. Do they include fixed costs you have anyway regardless of whether you are fighting? Its like when the Navy of somewhere says it costs $800,000 to rescue a sailor in distress. Unless you count only fuel and wear and tear, and you were not going on patrol etc. anyway, then that isn't true.
Rincewind Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I cannot ever take Moose's comments serious ever again after revealing his softer inner self.
Guest Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I'm pretty sure the £12bn the rincedog is talking about is the addition military spending required to defeat IS, some of which will go on planes. I'm sure Cameron would rather not have to spend that money on defeating IS but after recent events it has increasing public support. I dare say the average citizen fears more the threat from IS than they do the threat that a junior doctor might apply a bandage incorrectly because she's a bit tired. The average citizen is a fool.
Larry_LCFC Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Cut the 12 billion oversees annual aid budget and stop sending £250 million to India, a country with its own space mission. Then maybe we can stop making these ridiculous public sector cuts over here. What ever happened to charity beginning at home?
Jon the Hat Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Cut the 12 billion oversees annual aid budget and stop sending £250 million to India, a country with its own space mission. Then maybe we can stop making these ridiculous public sector cuts over here. What ever happened to charity beginning at home? I don't agree with cutting that per se, but I completely disagree with they way it is spent. India yes, and I think this is being gradually phased out.
Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I'm pretty sure the £12bn the rincedog is talking about is the addition military spending required to defeat IS, some of which will go on planes. I'm sure Cameron would rather not have to spend that money on defeating IS but after recent events it has increasing public support. I dare say the average citizen fears more the threat from IS than they do the threat that a junior doctor might apply a bandage incorrectly because she's a bit tired. With good reason. You might reconsider your slightly patronising views on doctors if you ever need one mind.
Bellend Sebastian Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I don't know about doctors but I went to see my new dentist this morning and she's well fit
Guest MattP Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 The whole thing has been a shambles really, Hunt has clearly cocked up and should probably resign, when 98% vote for strike action you have mishandled a situation very badly. The BMA also have questions to answer though; it almost looks like they wanted this, refusal to come back and negotiate was criminal. Striking is never good though, in the eyes of the public it's poor when you do this, even more so in winter and then even more so when they realise you are already the highest paid in the World at your profession. Looks like we could be heading for a stand off.
bovril Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Cut the 12 billion oversees annual aid budget and stop sending £250 million to India, a country with its own space mission. Then maybe we can stop making these ridiculous public sector cuts over here. What ever happened to charity beginning at home? Interesting how people only ever remember the first part of this quote.
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