MONreborn Posted 22 November 2015 Posted 22 November 2015 Have you guys seen the news about doctors going on strike next month?! Has anyone been keeping up to date on the reasons why, and how it may affect patients?
Rincewind Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Not seen it. All I have seen is how well the country is doing and what a bargain12b is for a fighter plane. The doctors should be pleased the money is spent on that instead of hospitals, schools police fire service and children;services. Greedy sods.
MooseBreath Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Junior Doctors don't think they should have to work weekends without a substantial pay rise above their already world leading salaries. That's basically the gist of it I think.
Head Honcho Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 They'll all be replaced by cheaper foreign doctors soon anyway...isn't this the governments end game?
Thracian Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Not seen it. All I have seen is how well the country is doing and what a bargain12b is for a fighter plane. The doctors should be pleased the money is spent on that instead of hospitals, schools police fire service and children;services. Greedy sods. Not seen it. All I have seen is how well the country is doing and what a bargain12b is for a fighter plane. The doctors should be pleased the money is spent on that instead of hospitals, schools police fire service and children;services. Greedy sods. So predictably condemning. Lots of money is spent on the health service - more than ever - and lots of money is wasted too. The NHS is a money-gobbling leviathan, badly managed, often offering plain awful service and at the mercy of union-encouraged doctors and staff determined to grab as much for themselves as they can while giving increasingly little in return.
Webbo Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 So predictably condemning. Lots of money is spent on the health service - more than ever - and lots of money is wasted too. The NHS is a money-gobbling leviathan, badly managed, often offering plain awful service and at the mercy of union-encouraged doctors and staff determined to grab as much for themselves as they can while giving increasingly little in return. It's just inane posturing Thrac, don't take him too seriously.
Vacamion Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 You see all those people who accuse George O and IDS of "murder" because someone on benefits, whose benefits were reduced, died? Do you think they'll all shout as loudly when someone pegs it during the doctors' strike?
DB11 Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Best not fall ill on said days Best not fall ill on said days It'll take you over a week to get an appointment so won't be too bad!
Guest Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 It's just inane posturing Thrac, don't take him too seriously. Maybe, but he does allude to the important point of government priorities. The NHS is in a financial mess because the UK offers a wide range of services "free" to a great extent. Maybe junior doctors are paid too much but without question they are asked to work or be on call for far too long. Perhaps the correct course of action is to reduce the consecutive hours "on call" and pay doctors a reasonable wage (whether that is more or less than at present) for a reasonable work load. This of course would mean employing many more doctors (or shipping them in from the developing world) which will still mean the NHS has a financial nightmare. Looks like it's time to answer the question as to how important the NHS is to the UK, Should we move to a "pay" system where the rich get the treatment and the poor die or whether we should be putting our resources into certain medical areas and not others (for example - leave (help) terminally ill patients to die earlier, decide that certain patient's operations are "unproductive" and they are merely a drain on limited resources - certain handicaps).
Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Pretty vicious comments already, wow. I'm not going to criticise people for disagreeing with us but I would desperately hope people do a little reading around the subject before digesting the Tory soundbites. Firstly, what is a junior doctor? That's any doctor that's not a consultant. From a first year FY1 to a ST 8 senior registrar with 15 years experience. Junior doctors are the workhorses of the NHS who do the majority of the work, "consulting" their seniors for the direction of management when required. Secondly, let's tackle the subject of money. We've been offered an 11% pay rise in basic pay. As it stands, that's the pay we earn between the hours of 7am and 7pm, Monday to Friday. We rarely work those hours. The NHS is already a 24 hour, 7/7 service. Regardless of what hour of the day or day of the week you present to the NHS with a emergency, you will be treated. And treated well - NHS emergency care is routinely deemed to be world-class and is the most cost effective service in the world. That means we don't work those aforementioned hours, we tend to do a lot of nights, late evenings and weekends. No junior doctor doesn't work weekends for a substantial portion of their career, there are few specialities which don't offer a round the clock service (services which mainly operate in plain hours would include GUM/sexual health and public health, which don't tend to see a lot of emergency patients that can't be managed by general physicians in the acute setting). When work those hours, we attract a pay premium of between 10 and 50%. That's what makes up a significant proportion of our salaries, which I agree are adequate as things stand. If we work 70 hours of night shifts in a single week (followed by a two day break to recover) we would earn time and a half; is that really so unreasonable? The Government wants to change our hours so that "social hours" are Monday to Saturday 7am-10pm. Not only is this grossly unfair, when you crunch the numbers it equates to a 20-30% paycut for the majority of doctors, given that it is us that staff the NHS out of hours and provide that world-class care. The only reason Hunt is saying no doctor will lose out is because he's offering to protect the pay for the first couple of years, which means we'd simply be shovelling the shit onto the next generation. In other words, he's trying to buy our silence. The 11% payrise and reducing the social hours on Saturday evening came as a late concession to avoid strike action and along with the above bung, was rejected. The secondary effect of reducing our out of hours payments is there is no disincentive to trusts to force us to work long, erratic and antisocial shifts. Studies are unequivocal that tired and overworked doctors are dangerous doctors. That's pay out of the way. It's a secondary argument to most of us. What's worse is that we're fed up of being slandered. It's terrifying the amount of the general public think we're workshy and money grabbing. What are you doing on Christmas Day this year? I'm working 10 hour shifts in the emergency department. I'm working nights over New Year, my best friend is on nights over Christmas. I worked Christmas and New Year last year, nights over Christmas. This is not exceptional. This is normal. We accept it, but we won't accept the lies the Government are so happy to tell. The NHS is already a 7/7, 24 hour service. If you are unwell you will receive world-class care. The Government wants to stretch the already limited workforce to working electively for 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. There are no new doctors coming through, the attrition rate is already sky-high, this simply means destaffing the emergency and elective care for the rest of the week. Studies show that patients don't even want elective treatment 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. The DNA (did not attend) rate is through the roof. It is a waste of NHS resources to try and provide a full elective service through the entire week. The "weekend effect" that Jeremy is pedelling is based on a disgusting misinterpretation of the evidence. It largely reflects the fact that patients presenting to the NHS on a weekend are more unwell and therefore have a high risk of dying. The increased mortality is borne out over several weeks. To reiterate, any unwell patient that presents to the NHS is treated, regardless of the time of week. And to leave the world of facts and speculate, it's clear to the majority of NHS staff that the Tories want nothing more than to divide and conquer the NHS so they can sell it off. Our Health Secretary wrote a book to this effect. They have no mandate to destroy the NHS and have no guts to campaign to that effect so instead they intend to destabilise it and jeopardise patient care in doing so. You did not vote for this. The Tories were elected with a mandate to provide a 7/7 NHS which already exists where it matters and is impossible to provide where it does not. They have realised this and now will bully NHS staff into taking the blame and we will NOT stand for it. We've been accused of being too thick to analyse the information and have responded with a 98% mandate to strike, that's an unprecedented level of support from a well educated and generally self sacrificing population. And finally, if you are ill on strike day - the NHS is open. The consultants have cancelled their meetings and elective procedures and will man the NHS, supported by the nurses (many of home are advanced nurse practitioners who can prescribe etc.), pharmacists, physios and all the rest of the staff who already do and will continue to provide world class care. Studies have shown that mortality does not increase during doctor strikes.
Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I haven't even gone over all of the issues there, like removing pay progression for researchers and women who have families.
Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I've also forgotten to add that the "negotiations" the DoH want the BMA to attend come with 22 out of 23 clauses non-negotiable. What kind of negotiation is that?
Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 What's most terrifying is that Hunt and DoH are starting to have a real psychological effect on patients. There is a group of researchers compiling a case series of patients who delayed their presentation to the NHS because they genuinely believed the hospital was shut on Sunday or that they would die if they went to hospital on a Sunday. People are becoming seriously unwell and even dying because of this. Anecdotally, I and my colleagues are reporting this. I work on stroke at the moment and have met patients who may have been thrombolysed if they had presented to A+E immediately but who waited until Monday morning because of Hunt's lies. I have a moral obligation to shout as loud as I can about this selfless, reckless Government.
Guest Col city fan Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Junior Doctors don't think they should have to work weekends without a substantial pay rise above their already world leading salaries. That's basically the gist of it I think.Junior Doctors don't earn big salaries Rincey. They are far from poor but you need to get up the Medical ladder to start earning big bucks.And to add to that. If I were governing a country the best paid profession of all would be Doctors and nurses. At a time when a pro footballer can 'earn' a hundred k per WEEK, and fat cat bankers and lawyers get paid amazing amounts of money, to have a bloke who can perform a life saving operation time after time after time and get paid a fraction of what these other professions can earn, is in my opinion, scandalous. But it's not only about money..its about conditions.
Jon the Hat Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I haven't even gone over all of the issues there, like removing pay progression for researchers and women who have families. I share some of your concerns, but I don't actually get why if you get paid more for experience, you should get that increase if you are at home with the kids. An inflation based increase yes of course, but the pay progression is supposed to be about the value to bring, based on increased experience is it not? Research clearly adds experience of its own so I don't really understand the logic there.
Jon the Hat Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 What's most terrifying is that Hunt and DoH are starting to have a real psychological effect on patients. There is a group of researchers compiling a case series of patients who delayed their presentation to the NHS because they genuinely believed the hospital was shut on Sunday or that they would die if they went to hospital on a Sunday. People are becoming seriously unwell and even dying because of this. Anecdotally, I and my colleagues are reporting this. I work on stroke at the moment and have met patients who may have been thrombolysed if they had presented to A+E immediately but who waited until Monday morning because of Hunt's lies. I have a moral obligation to shout as loud as I can about this selfless, reckless Government. On the other hand, the NHS is expensive and wasteful and something has to be done to get the costs under control. What would you do? I don't think it is fair to call a government which is spending more on a protected NHS is reckless. I think if I had the budget for the NHS I might start by cutting the spend on researchers who compile analysis on why people don't come to hospital.
Guest Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Junior Doctors don't earn big salaries Rincey. They are far from poor but you need to get up the Medical ladder to start earning big bucks. And to add to that. If I were governing a country the best paid profession of all would be Doctors and nurses. At a time when a pro footballer can 'earn' a hundred k per WEEK, and fat cat bankers and lawyers get paid amazing amounts of money, to have a bloke who can perform a life saving operation time after time after time and get paid a fraction of what these other professions can earn, is in my opinion, scandalous. But it's not only about money..its about conditions. After teachers
Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I share some of your concerns, but I don't actually get why if you get paid more for experience, you should get that increase if you are at home with the kids. An inflation based increase yes of course, but the pay progression is supposed to be about the value to bring, based on increased experience is it not? Research clearly adds experience of its own so I don't really understand the logic there. It's a lesser concern for me. Why have you challenged that one? I don't disagree necessarily. On the other hand, the NHS is expensive and wasteful and something has to be done to get the costs under control. What would you do? I don't think it is fair to call a government which is spending more on a protected NHS is reckless. I think if I had the budget for the NHS I might start by cutting the spend on researchers who compile analysis on why people don't come to hospital. One of the biggest costs to the NHS is locum costs for having to stretch the workforce further than it can already go, I don't see how providing a 7/7 elective service makes economic sense when we're spending a fortune staffing what we have already.
Vicki Vixen Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 On the other hand, the NHS is expensive and wasteful and something has to be done to get the costs under control. What would you do? I don't think it is fair to call a government which is spending more on a protected NHS is reckless. I think if I had the budget for the NHS I might start by cutting the spend on researchers who compile analysis on why people don't come to hospital. Cost control? Here's a starting point... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/special-reports/11986549/Should-I-retire-at-55-because-of-my-1.25m-NHS-pension.html
Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 They do work stupid hours. We knew that when we started. As long as I'm safe and rested I accept the hours. I wouldn't strike for hours in isolation.
Larry_LCFC Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 How are they any different to say a new police officer who gets paid less? They only start on £19000 and are putting the lives at risk. Junior doctors aren't paid badly at all in comparison. Putting the public at risk is hardly going to win them any fans.
Fox92 Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 We knew that when we started. As long as I'm safe and rested I accept the hours. I wouldn't strike for hours in isolation. I couldn't believe it when I read it though.
Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 How are they any different to say a new police officer who gets paid less? They only start on £19000 and are putting the lives at risk. Junior doctors aren't paid badly at all in comparison. Putting the public at risk is hardly going to win them any fans. Far, far longer training programme and more stringent entry requirements. Not that I disagree the police need to be paid more and if they're going to be forced to go to University and accumulate a load of debt they ought to be having a pay review. You do realise we're not striking because we want more pay? Can we just get that straight once and for all. I think most of us would actually accept a pay cut if it brought better conditions.
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