Bryn Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 The whole thing has been a shambles really, Hunt has clearly cocked up and should probably resign, when 98% vote for strike action you have mishandled a situation very badly. The BMA also have questions to answer though; it almost looks like they wanted this, refusal to come back and negotiate was criminal. Striking is never good though, in the eyes of the public it's poor when you do this, even more so in winter and then even more so when they realise you are already the highest paid in the World at your profession. Looks like we could be heading for a stand off. There was no negotiation. A negotiation where 22 of 23 issues are not up for discussion is not a negotiation. All they have to do to avoid strike action is drop the preconditions. The BMA is historically one of the most inert organisations going, it achieves nothing. They've been forced to move now because of the strength of feeling of doctors. And where the heck has this best paid in the world nonsense come from? Go find me some evidence please.
RobHawk Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I don't think many people would disagree with your sentiments. The question is how to take an NHS with already massive and growing budget and make it affordable for the next 50 years. Also agree it care has got worse in many respects, but then Nursing also moved on massively as a profession, and care has fallen down the list of priorities. Well the first answer to your question is to not make all parts of the NHS 24/7 when it really isn't needed! The simplest thing to do when trying to save money, is to prioritise what you are spending!
Jon the Hat Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Well the first answer to your question is to not make all parts of the NHS 24/7 when it really isn't needed! The simplest thing to do when trying to save money, is to prioritise what you are spending! Ok, so in the short term don't bother with non essentials at weekends. Then you run out of space at one of you hospitals and have to build an extension, then a new hospital etc, then you have to staff that as well. So you achieve the same, but you have to build a new hospital as well. Wouldn't it be better to just get more staff in the facilities you are already paying for?
Finnegan Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 there's a reason that top of the range fighter jets and bombers cost what they do. Yeah... Because the arms industry makes the proverbial lizardmen really ****ing rich.
RobHawk Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 Ok, so in the short term don't bother with non essentials at weekends. Then you run out of space at one of you hospitals and have to build an extension, then a new hospital etc, then you have to staff that as well. So you achieve the same, but you have to build a new hospital as well. Wouldn't it be better to just get more staff in the facilities you are already paying for? In my local hospital I don't think there are really many facilities (other than offices) that aren't being used. My Mother in law is in hospital at the moment and i had a good walk around on Saturday whilst waiting for my wife and was surprised how busy and full everything seemed to be. This is a hospital without an A&E facility as well. But at the end of the day our population is growing, people are living longer and i think long term we will need new hospitals and more staff anyway. But i'm not sure how this has anything to do with what the government is proposing, and there lies the problem IMO.
Strokes Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I hope this all ends soon, just so bryn can piss off and stop whinging for a bit.
GaelicFox Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 I'm pretty sure the £12bn the rincedog is talking about is the addition military spending required to defeat IS, some of which will go on planes. I'm sure Cameron would rather not have to spend that money on defeating IS but after recent events it has increasing public support. I dare say the average citizen fears more the threat from IS than they do the threat that a junior doctor might apply a bandage incorrectly because she's a bit tired. NHS , education , Police all facing huge cuts 175 billion on 4 tin fish to carry rockets to fight jihadists who can't swim sounds a bit stupid !
GaelicFox Posted 23 November 2015 Posted 23 November 2015 The whole thing has been a shambles really, Hunt has clearly cocked up and should probably resign, when 98% vote for strike action you have mishandled a situation very badly. The BMA also have questions to answer though; it almost looks like they wanted this, refusal to come back and negotiate was criminal. Striking is never good though, in the eyes of the public it's poor when you do this, even more so in winter and then even more so when they realise you are already the highest paid in the World at your profession. Looks like we could be heading for a stand off. Negotiate what ? hunt the cu@t already made it clear he wasn't bending on weekends extra duty pay Nurses are soon to be balloted ! My wife works 12 hour shifts at the Royal saving babies lives she deals with death on a daily basis and the trauma that brings and she does it for a pittance she is educated to masters level and has 15 years experience and lidl pay a junior store manager more ! Add to that the pay freeze she has endured for 4 years means she has actually suffered a cut in pay ! Her department used to run on 7 nurses it's now 4 ! System is fecked up ! And people are dying because of it ! sad but true !
act smiley Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 On the other hand, the NHS is expensive and wasteful and something has to be done to get the costs under control. What would you do? I don't think it is fair to call a government which is spending more on a protected NHS is reckless. I think if I had the budget for the NHS I might start by cutting the spend on researchers who compile analysis on why people don't come to hospital. No it isn't - sure, any service that large isn't going to be 100% efficient but just because something costs a lot doesn't mean it's particularly inefficient. In any kind of efficiency stats, the NHS is in the top 5 in the world, usually top 1-3. Having people research why people don't turn up is useful because missed appointments waste a truckload of time and money. You want inefficiency look at the government scrapping the Nimrod upgrades when they were almost finished, then now realising they needed them and going out and buying some brand new P8s for an extra billion or so.
GaelicFox Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 No it isn't - sure, any service that large isn't going to be 100% efficient but just because something costs a lot doesn't mean it's particularly inefficient. In any kind of efficiency stats, the NHS is in the top 5 in the world, usually top 1-3. Having people research why people don't turn up is useful because missed appointments waste a truckload of time and money. You want inefficiency look at the government scrapping the Nimrod upgrades when they were almost finished, then now realising they needed them and going out and buying some brand new P8s for an extra billion or so. I wouldn't bite ! He reads the daily mail that's obvious The NHS is grossly under funded a blind man can see that !
MooseBreath Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 NHS , education , Police all facing huge cuts 175 billion on 4 tin fish to carry rockets to fight jihadists who can't swim sounds a bit stupid ! I've got no idea what you're on about
Bryn Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 I hope this all ends soon, just so bryn can piss off and stop whinging for a bit. It's the first time I've mentioned it... in a thread I didn't make.
Guest Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 Negotiate what ? hunt the cu@t already made it clear he wasn't bending on weekends extra duty pay Nurses are soon to be balloted ! My wife works 12 hour shifts at the Royal saving babies lives she deals with death on a daily basis and the trauma that brings and she does it for a pittance she is educated to masters level and has 15 years experience and lidl pay a junior store manager more ! Add to that the pay freeze she has endured for 4 years means she has actually suffered a cut in pay ! Her department used to run on 7 nurses it's now 4 ! System is fecked up ! And people are dying because of it ! sad but true ! My respect to your wife. That's what I call working for the community. These are the people that deserve the higher wages, the people we should value but our system is ****ed up.
Guest Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 It's the first time I've mentioned it... in a thread I didn't make. Don't worry Bryn. He's just looking for some attention. Go and save a few lives this week and realise that you have the respect of most of us.
Thracian Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 There was no negotiation. A negotiation where 22 of 23 issues are not up for discussion is not a negotiation. All they have to do to avoid strike action is drop the preconditions. The BMA is historically one of the most inert organisations going, it achieves nothing. They've been forced to move now because of the strength of feeling of doctors. And where the heck has this best paid in the world nonsense come from? Go find me some evidence please. Even a few years ago 700 British GPs were earning more than £200,000 a year. With doctors, and nurses too in some cases, it's not just their salaries, there are extras for working in the private sector, for endorsing medical products and treatments, for giving lectures, writing columns, appearing in adverts and so on. No wonder they feel overworked and good luck to them. But I can do without the sob stories. There can be brilliance when there's a real emergency or when a life is under imminent threat but bottom line is that many aspects of the basic service are awful. I've seen it first hand in Leicester on virtually every occasion I've had involvement. As for the long hours and pressured demands they can always chuck it in and come work winters on the market, often for sweet damn all when conditions are bad..
Babylon Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 I'm pretty sure the £12bn the rincedog is talking about is the addition military spending required to defeat IS, some of which will go on planes. I'm sure Cameron would rather not have to spend that money on defeating IS but after recent events it has increasing public support. I dare say the average citizen fears more the threat from IS than they do the threat that a junior doctor might apply a bandage incorrectly because she's a bit tired. It's not additional spending, more government spin. They have asked the MOD to make £11b of savings to fund that £12b, which basically means they are shifting money from one area to another, with a shed load of jobs being lost in the process.
Guest MattP Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 There was no negotiation. A negotiation where 22 of 23 issues are not up for discussion is not a negotiation. All they have to do to avoid strike action is drop the preconditions. The BMA is historically one of the most inert organisations going, it achieves nothing. They've been forced to move now because of the strength of feeling of doctors. And where the heck has this best paid in the world nonsense come from? Go find me some evidence please. What you are saying here is going completely against what the girl from the BMA is saying on Victoria Derbyshire now, the strike is going ahead whatever and they are prepared to negotiate afterwards, that's the sort of attitude the public don't like, you are clearly being asked to come back to the table and are basing the refusal on the basis they might not negoatiate with something you demand, get to the table. The best paid in the World thing has been spoken by a lot of people, although it's appears even fullfact can't actually get to the bottom of it due to misleading figures being given out all over the place. https://fullfact.org/factchecks/are_british_doctors_among_the_best_paid_in_the_world-27442 Negotiate what ? hunt the cu@t already made it clear he wasn't bending on weekends extra duty pay Nurses are soon to be balloted ! My wife works 12 hour shifts at the Royal saving babies lives she deals with death on a daily basis and the trauma that brings and she does it for a pittance she is educated to masters level and has 15 years experience and lidl pay a junior store manager more ! My partner also works in the NHS, If you want to pay them more than I'm up for it, but at least offer up something about how you are going to pay for it, you can't keep squeezing the wages of the productive sector of the economy to pay for engorgement in the public sector. The NHS is grossly under funded a blind man can see that ! Certainly is and we need to have a serious debate about how we fund it, just throwing more and more money at it doesn't seem to improve standards and at worst it encourages gross profligacy from government. At the minute it is clearly riddled with ineffiencies and has been loaded with a burden that could never have been envisaged at it's inception, the scientific advances and technological developments have meant an escalating costs and longetivity of life no one could have predicted fifty years ago, the expectation the public have of the NHS far exceeds what is now available with finite resources/ The answer clearly isn't going to be easy, personally I'd start with the question of what we expect the NHS to be, a health service or a nanny.
act smiley Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 If you want to pay them more than I'm up for it, but at least offer up something about how you are going to pay for it, you can't keep squeezing the wages of the productive sector of the economy to pay for engorgement in the public sector. Certainly is and we need to have a serious debate about how we fund it, just throwing more and more money at it doesn't seem to improve standards and at worst it encourages gross profligacy from government. At the minute it is clearly riddled with ineffiencies and has been loaded with a burden that could never have been envisaged at it's inception, the scientific advances and technological developments have meant an escalating costs and longetivity of life no one could have predicted fifty years ago, the expectation the public have of the NHS far exceeds what is now available with finite resources/ The answer clearly isn't going to be easy, personally I'd start with the question of what we expect the NHS to be, a health service or a nanny. Squeezes on wages isn't the fault of healthcare spending. The amount of cash saved by having the NHS is immense, all those employers who don't have to bother spending on private healthcare packages; they just don't bother passing on any of the savings. You're right in that more old people = more demand, but as a % of GDP it's hardly like it's out of line with what any other system would cost; it's 9.1%, same as Italy and compared to 11.7 for France, 12.9 for the Netherlands or 17.1% for the USA. (stats from world bank: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc )
Bryn Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 What you are saying here is going completely against what the girl from the BMA is saying on Victoria Derbyshire now, the strike is going ahead whatever and they are prepared to negotiate afterwards, that's the sort of attitude the public don't like, you are clearly being asked to come back to the table and are basing the refusal on the basis they might not negoatiate with something you demand, get to the table. The best paid in the World thing has been spoken by a lot of people, although it's appears even fullfact can't actually get to the bottom of it due to misleading figures being given out all over the place. https://fullfact.org/factchecks/are_british_doctors_among_the_best_paid_in_the_world-27442 My partner also works in the NHS, If you want to pay them more than I'm up for it, but at least offer up something about how you are going to pay for it, you can't keep squeezing the wages of the productive sector of the economy to pay for engorgement in the public sector. Certainly is and we need to have a serious debate about how we fund it, just throwing more and more money at it doesn't seem to improve standards and at worst it encourages gross profligacy from government. At the minute it is clearly riddled with ineffiencies and has been loaded with a burden that could never have been envisaged at it's inception, the scientific advances and technological developments have meant an escalating costs and longetivity of life no one could have predicted fifty years ago, the expectation the public have of the NHS far exceeds what is now available with finite resources/ The answer clearly isn't going to be easy, personally I'd start with the question of what we expect the NHS to be, a health service or a nanny. Who is saying that because I find that very concerning. It's certainly not what I have read in the media and in the communications sent from the BMA around the time of the ballot. What is clear is that we will not return to a negotiation table at which 22 of 23 conditions are non-negotiable, unless an arbitrator is appointed. That's been the BMA stance for months. And again, with respect, I'm not overly interested in the perception of attitude. I'm interested in facts. And again, there is NO question of us asking for more money. None whatsoever. We already work weekends, we already work nights, we do not wish to work more hours for less pay at the behest of a Government that lies, slanders, misrepresents critical evidence and wants the run the NHS into the ground.
Bryn Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 Even a few years ago 700 British GPs were earning more than £200,000 a year. With doctors, and nurses too in some cases, it's not just their salaries, there are extras for working in the private sector, for endorsing medical products and treatments, for giving lectures, writing columns, appearing in adverts and so on. No wonder they feel overworked and good luck to them. But I can do without the sob stories If a GP is earning that much per year they must be running damn good practices given they are remunerated based on the results they achieve. They are businessmen, clinicians and administrators of the NHS and the overwhelming majority are not on 6 figure salaries. In any case, GPs and consultants have nought to do with this debate given that they're employed under a different contract. There aren't junior doctors earning that sort of private income. And even if they were, that wouldnt be coming out of the public purse anyway!
Guest Col city fan Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 Even a few years ago 700 British GPs were earning more than £200,000 a year. With doctors, and nurses too in some cases, it's not just their salaries, there are extras for working in the private sector, for endorsing medical products and treatments, for giving lectures, writing columns, appearing in adverts and so on. No wonder they feel overworked and good luck to them. But I can do without the sob stories. There can be brilliance when there's a real emergency or when a life is under imminent threat but bottom line is that many aspects of the basic service are awful. I've seen it first hand in Leicester on virtually every occasion I've had involvement. As for the long hours and pressured demands they can always chuck it in and come work winters on the market, often for sweet damn all when conditions are bad.. When has a nurse earned 200k per annum?
Thracian Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 When has a nurse earned 200k per annum? You misread what I said for which I apologise. I said 700 GPs earned that much and added that even nurses income could be bolstered by other income - but in no way suggesting that they were earning £200,000 although there's no telling what some senior nurses might get for endorsements or lectures. Easily influenced as ever Rincey.
Bryn Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 What do endorsements (I think you'd be hard pushed to find any evidence that this a practice widely relevant to the UK given that prescribing guidance is evidence based and guidance is issued by NICE. There isn't really an persomal incentive to NHS practitioners to prescribe medicines in this country) have to do with junior doctor contracts?
Dr The Singh Posted 24 November 2015 Posted 24 November 2015 When has a nurse earned 200k per annum? Lapdancing????
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