EU referendum opinion poll.

[Guest MattP]

That discounts the benefits our markets receive for a free trade area, for one thing, and also yes, we are a net contributor to the EU, and there are poorer countries who take more out of the EU than they put in. Is it a bad thing in theory that wealth is redistributed to helping these poorer nations whose economy needs the support of other, stronger EU nations? 

 

If the idea was really to increase standards of living in poorer nations we wouldn't have freedom of movement which allows the richer nations to rape the poorer ones of it's talent.

[digitalalba]

That discounts the benefits our markets receive for a free trade area, for one thing, and also yes, we are a net contributor to the EU, and there are poorer countries who take more out of the EU than they put in. Is it a bad thing in theory that wealth is redistributed to helping these poorer nations whose economy needs the support of other, stronger EU nations? 

It's incredibly baffeling and very annoying how some people are taken in. £7 Billion for a free trade membership card, my word.

In laymans terms, if I have 100 bikes that I want to sell, I can sell them to a man in the EU or a man in America, it does not matter whether we are in the EU or not.

 

Have you ever wondered who pays for our 73 MEP's £1,000 a week wages, or their assistants, or the EU building (including massive security etc etc etc), or the incredibly shit 'art' the EU has bought, the tons of extra cash MEP groups 'earn', not to mention the wages of the UNelected people who run the thing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11985763/Fraud-allegations-and-waste-as-EU-hands-out-money-faster-than-states-can-spend-it.html

[Guest]

The PM doesn't spend £19 Billion of UK taxes, he gives it to the EU, who in return, only spend £12 billion back on us.

 

Wouldn't it be better if the other £7 Billion was spent on schools, hospitals, police etc?

 

It is a waste of my time to reply to any more of your posts. Hope you understand.

 

It did Greece a lot of good.

 

At least there wasn't a war.

[digitalalba]

It is a waste of my time to reply to any more of your posts. Hope you understand.

Because you cannot answer them.

 

 

For the first tonight, the audience on Question Time was generally in favour of pulling out, despite 80% of the panelist being in favour. The In campaign constantly tell us that it's better to stay in for the economy and jobs, yet ex Dragons Den business man Theo Phafitis abliterated this by telling everyone that the EU rely on us for FIVE MILLION jobs, and questioned one of the leading Out campaigners June someone (TV presenter no less ) when she said we rely on three million.

 

So, as Theo quite rightly pointed out, the EU NEED US MORE THAN WE NEED THEM.

[ramboacdc]

 

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   Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam  19m19 minutes ago

   Delegations at #Euco are being advised to book an extra night's hotel as council plenary gets delayed and delayed

 

 

going into the weekend. 

[digitalalba]

It's deliberate. Camerons not asking for anything substantial. He'll likely get a 'good deal' of what he is asking for and present it to the British public as if he's done a remarkable job. Pantomine,

[Rincewind]

It's deliberate. Camerons not asking for anything substantial. He'll likely get a 'good deal' of what he is asking for and present it to the British public as if he's done a remarkable job. Pantomine,

He will tell the British public it is a great deal and the Telegraph Express and Sun will back him up. The British public will post topics on message forums like ' I read today that Cameron has negotiated a fantastic deal so it must be true, all other sources are propaganda from the loony left.

But I am a skeptic so I must be wrong.

[Carl the Llama]

It did Greece a lot of good.

No, falsifying the public figures in order to gain entry to the EU along with the alleged willingness of suits at the Schuman roundabout to turn a blind eye to the fiddling at the time is what did Greece a lot of good.  If they hadn't successfully blagged it or the aforementioned suits didn't get arrogant and think Greece could be fixed after joining then their woes unravel slightly differently.  Almost certainly would they still be a nation screwed over by corrupt politicians but at least people wouldn't be able to flippantly blame 'Brussels' instead of the Greek government that started the mess.

[Webbo]

No, falsifying the public figures in order to gain entry to the EU along with the alleged willingness of suits at the Schuman roundabout to turn a blind eye to the fiddling at the time is what did Greece a lot of good.  If they hadn't successfully blagged it or the aforementioned suits didn't get arrogant and think Greece could be fixed after joining then their woes unravel slightly differently.  Almost certainly would they still be a nation screwed over by corrupt politicians but at least people wouldn't be able to flippantly blame 'Brussels' instead of the Greek government that started the mess.

That wasn't the point but anyway, do you really think that the EU didn't realise that the figures were being fiddled?

[Carl the Llama]

That wasn't the point but anyway, do you really think that the EU didn't realise that the figures were being fiddled?

That's what I'm talking about with the turning a blind eye and arrogance.  The point I'm making is that Greece was already a sinking ship so to put it all on the EU is a bit disingenuous.  Only a moron would claim the EU's a perfectly functioning socio-capitalist utopia of an international governing body (a wordy moron at that) but at the end of the day I support the idea behind it just as much as I support the idea of a democratic government in the UK, or France, Germany, Belgium, China, North blooming Korea, and so on and so on, I believe that democratic governments are a good thing in general.  All this talk of the EU being undemocratic is tosh, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Webbo]

That's what I'm talking about with the turning a blind eye and arrogance.  The point I'm making is that Greece was already a sinking ship so to put it all on the EU is a bit disingenuous.  Only a moron would claim the EU's a perfectly functioning socio-capitalist utopia of an international governing body (a wordy moron at that) but at the end of the day I support the idea behind it just as much as I support the idea of a democratic government in the UK, or France, Germany, Belgium, China, North blooming Korea, and so on and so on, I believe that democratic governments are a good thing in general.  All this talk of the EU being undemocratic is tosh, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It's not tosh though is it? The EU are undemocratic else we'd be able to vote out the people who make laws we don't like.

[act smiley]

Well, you can vote for a different MEP. I'd agree that there's too much that's indirectly pick-your-government-who-pick-the-commissioner type stuff, but it's not like it's all some civil servant just going "hmm, today I think I'll demand the UK raises it's tax level for sandwiches" or some such shit, it's just the same kind of issues with having the house of lords just on a bigger scale.

[Webbo]

Well, you can vote for a different MEP. I'd agree that there's too much that's indirectly pick-your-government-who-pick-the-commissioner type stuff, but it's not like it's all some civil servant just going "hmm, today I think I'll demand the UK raises it's tax level for sandwiches" or some such shit, it's just the same kind of issues with having the house of lords just on a bigger scale.

Civil servants don't decide which laws we have, that's down to the politicians that we can vote out. As for the House of Lords, they are people from this country that live here, speak our language, brought up in our traditions  and are affected by what happens here.

[Vacamion]

Pictures of Farage and Galloway laughing and joking together at the "GO" rally this evening is brilliant for the stay campaign.

It makes "leave" look like the plaything of extremists.

I'm much more confident of a "stay" vote.

[Carl the Llama]

It's not tosh though is it? The EU are undemocratic else we'd be able to vote out the people who make laws we don't like.

This nifty graph shows the relationships between the various constituents of the EU and as you can see there is no part of the process which is entirely devolved from the people's votes at their national or European ballots. 

Laws seem a bit of a sticking point for you but they're ratified through the European Parliament or the European Council, you can directly affect the members of both by voting for your MEP or head of state respectively.

The commission and the council president are another thing you have a problem with judging by your posts but again they are put in place by the MEPs or your head of state respectively.  They may not be given their role by you directly but at least they're people from this continent that live here, speak our language (and others beside), and are affected by what happens here.

[Webbo]

This nifty graph shows the relationships between the various constituents of the EU and as you can see there is no part of the process which is entirely devolved from the people's votes at their national or European ballots. 

Laws seem a bit of a sticking point for you but they're ratified through the European Parliament or the European Council, you can directly affect the members of both by voting for your MEP or head of state respectively.

The commission and the council president are another thing you have a problem with judging by your posts but again they are put in place by the MEPs or your head of state respectively.  They may not be given their role by you directly but at least they're people from this continent that live here, speak our language (and others beside), and are affected by what happens here.

So how come we keep having these laws imposed on us?

[Buce]

So how come we keep having these laws imposed on us?

Because they are ratified by a majority in the EU Parliament?

[LJS]

So how come we keep having these laws imposed on us?

We don't. Well, no more than I have laws imposed on me by a government I didn't vote for. Such is democracy. Sometimes we eon't get what we want. The EU is democratic. There are good intellectual arguments for leaving. The EU being undemocratic isn't one of them.

Anyway. We all know the 'renegotiation' has been bollocks from the beginning. Cameron would much rather have not bothered at all and I suspect he thought he was in for another coalition with the Lib Dems which would have put a stop to any referendum anyway. He made a promise he never thought he'd have to keep. The referendum won't be about the new terms. There are more important arguments to be made by either side. That said, I do think some of what he claims to have won - combined with him being popular - will be enough to convince some to vote for remain.

The Galloway stuff is mental. In Farage and Galloway you have two of the least liked politicians in the country sharing a stage. There are good arguments for leaving the EU and the leave lot might well completely **** it on the basis of having two morons leading their campaign. They'd better hope Johnson chucks his lot in with them. I think he will, so they'll get away with it. But what the **** were they thinking?

I'm firmly remain, but then I identify as European and have always wanted further integration, so there was nothing in any of thos which was going to change my mind anyway. My view all along has been that remain will win comfortably. The phone polls (which are traditionally more accurate that online polls, even in the recent general election) reflect that too. I guess the remain lead will narrow, but I think there's as much chance of us voting to leave as there is of Tim Sherwood not being a willy puller.

[Webbo]

Thanks for explaining that to me but you're talking bollox. There are rules imposed on us every week that never voted for and can't opt out of. UKIP are the biggest British party in Europe and yet Europe continues with policies they are opposed to.

Wanting more integration is a legitimate opinion to hold, personally I'd rather we made our own laws.

[Strokes]

Well, you can vote for a different MEP. I'd agree that there's too much that's indirectly pick-your-government-who-pick-the-commissioner type stuff, but it's not like it's all some civil servant just going "hmm, today I think I'll demand the UK raises it's tax level for sandwiches" or some such shit, it's just the same kind of issues with having the house of lords just on a bigger scale.

The governing alliance, wasn't even represented in th UK. So nobody in the UK voted or could vote for party that has power over us. That's not a great example of democracy.

[LJS]

Thanks for explaining that to me but you're talking bollox. There are rules imposed on us every week that never voted for and can't opt out of. UKIP are the biggest British party in Europe and yet Europe continues with policies they are opposed to.

Wanting more integration is a legitimate opinion to hold, personally I'd rather we made our own laws.

Which is also a legitimate opinion to hold and one which I respect, though disagree with.

I'm not talking bollocks. Laws are only imposed to the extent that laws are also imposed on me as a non-Conservative voter by the current party of government. Why should we be able to opt out of laws agreed by a majority of a union of which we are only a constituent part? To be able to do so would undermine the very idea of a union and would be fundamentally undemocratic in itself.

UKIP are the biggest British party in the European Parliament, not in Europe. They're two different things. The most influential British party in Europe is that which is the government of the day. It is they who have influence within the executive function of the EU, in a similar way in which a cabinet member has influence over the government in the UK.

UK-elected MEPs have a voice within the European Parliament as part of a wider block which essentially acts as a pan-European party of the right/left/liberals/whatever. In the same way that a Conservative MP for a Leicestershire constituency is part of the national party. They may make arguments about local issues and may even win some concessions, but they aren't going to have party policy dictated by their narrower constituency concerns.

I don't buy the "our own laws" bit of your argument but that's just because we come from two completely different perspectives. I have always considered myself primarily to be European. I'm proud of my various identities (Leicester, Leicestershire, East Midlands, Midlands, England) but have always had a strong feeling for our shared culture and history across Europe. I want to be part of the nation state called Europe.

The EU itself, I think, works pretty well although it is by no means perfect. But I'm not really about the EU. I support it because it's the best existing means of taking Europe towards the full political union I'd like to see. But it doesn't really matter to me how we get there so long as it is democratic and non-violent. I think that's where we will end up, in the end. Whether I live to see it is another matter!

[LJS]

The governing alliance, wasn't even represented in th UK. So nobody in the UK voted or could vote for party that has power over us. That's not a great example of democracy.

That's the choice of the UK parties not to join the more popular alliances, not the fault of the EU. UK voters can use their votes at home to influence the policies of UK parties to be part of those alliances to give us more say.

[Strokes]

That's the choice of the UK parties not to join the more popular alliances, not the fault of the EU. UK voters can use their votes at home to influence the policies of UK parties to be part of those alliances to give us more say.

It's a fault in the Structure of the EU that this can even happen. It's not the fault of the British parties.

[Strokes]

That's the choice of the UK parties not to join the more popular alliances, not the fault of the EU. UK voters can use their votes at home to influence the policies of UK parties to be part of those alliances to give us more say.

Also it shows how little a voice we have in a major part of our laws, I think we will be able to have more influence on the EU from the outside than from inside.

[LJS]

We'd probably become a less affluent Norway. All the EU laws (they'd set the terms of trade, not us) and none of the influence over the executive. Remember, the European Parliament is just one part of the EU. Our elected government is part of all laws proposed by the EU executive as it is part of it. The parliament does not (cannot) propose laws - it's is legislative only.