EU referendum opinion poll.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Nope I'm pretty sure we could leave the ECHR if we wanted to without leaving the EU. The idea has been bandied about with regards to replacing it with a British bill of rights.

Parliament has the power to reject any declarations of incompatability with the ECHR anyway.

It didn't do any use when we wanted to get rid of Abu whoever with the hook for a hand

[Carl the Llama]

 

But we have to sign up to it as part of the EU.

No that's the Council of Europe.

 

 

I didn't realise these examples had to be exactly like the other, perhaps you can explain again how voting for lib dem and your vote counting towards a coalition. Is the same as not being able to vote for the ruling and biggest alliance, that actually has power over you?

You make my point for me really because I was always up for fixing the issue.

 

Everyone here's got essentially the same problem with Europe except they all seem to have absolutely no idea how voting in Europe works, I'm not going to explain it again because if you've been reading my posts you should know by now that your vote really does have consequence. The same ignorant people who refuse to learn about how the whole thing works because a man in tweed saved them the effort with wonderfully rousing rhetoric even proved as much by voting in UKIP MEPs who were very effective at negatively interfering in policymaking while also doing a fantastic job of freeloading their MEP salary.

 

[Webbo]

Isn't the ESA funded through the EU, and Tim Peake a ESA astronaut?

 

The Americans, Russians and ESA all have a part-share of the contributions towards the upkeep of the ISS, as far as I know.

 

 

Yeah, a much bigger nation, with fewer borders. That being said, like I said I think nationalist pressure will keep it from working. Too much division over too much time, which is why I think the long term big projects is the only way co-operation will work well. Too much else is at stake.

 

And if thinking humans are more than the arbitrary lines on a map or beliefs written in a thousand year old book they enjoy killing each other over makes me a hippy then pass me the bad-smelling poncho and the bong because I'll back that from now until the end of the world (which will probably be heralded by someone saying "I'm doing this for my country), and in spite of all the patronising BS you choose to fling in this direction.

No offence Mac. I prefer your unrealistic idealism to a lot of the cynicism on here.

[digitalalba]

If anyone doubted just how important getting Gove on board was it was him that apparantly convinced Boris Johnson to come with him over a four hour dinner.

But they're using Brexit as a tool to live in Downing Street.

[Carl the Llama]

If anyone doubted just how important getting Gove on board was it was him that apparantly convinced Boris Johnson to come with him over a four hour dinner.

I'll bet he did the saucy minx, but please Matt we're trying to talk about politics here.

[digitalalba]

Personally, I think the EU at a micromanagement level is doomed to fail precisely because of so many people with that strong belief in the idea of nationalism, all wanting different things and so compromise either being difficult or impossible to reach - a bureaucratic black hole, as it were. I'd like to see us all actually getting along as human beings rather than being divided over petty shit like what lines were drawn on a map hundreds of years ago and the tradition of killing each other over such matters, but pragmatically I don't see that happening.

Have you drawn a line between who can come in your house (Country) and who can't, and do you believe that what's in your home is valuable.

[leicsmac]

No offence Mac. I prefer your unrealistic idealism to a lot of the cynicism on here.

 

None taken. I try to balance the idealistic with the pragmatic as much as I can given what can be seen about human nature, but you've got to believe in a future where humans aren't being cvnts to each other for petty reasons...or what's the point?

[leicsmac]

Have you drawn a line between who can come in your house (Country) and who can't, and do you believe that what's in your home is valuable.

 

Yep, I believe fully in the individual, and safeguarding themselves and their family members. I also believe in having power decentralised and localised as much as possible.

 

I also believe that we're all human, and as such we should at some points look to make decisions that will benefit all of humanity, not just ourselves.

 

Everything inbetween, from towns to districts, cities and nations...not so much.

[Webbo]

None taken. I try to balance the idealistic with the pragmatic as much as I can given what can be seen about human nature, but you've got to believe in a future where humans aren't being cvnts to each other for petty reasons...or what's the point?

There's a discussion to be had on human nature and the causes of conflict but that's for another thread.

[Webbo]

 

 The same ignorant people who refuse to learn about how the whole thing works because a man in tweed saved them the effort with wonderfully rousing rhetoric even proved as much by voting in UKIP MEPs who were very effective at negatively interfering in policymaking while also doing a fantastic job of freeloading their MEP salary.

 

 

Isn't that why we vote for MEPs, to effect legislation? 

[Larry_LCFC]

I'm out all the way. Sick of the EU and all its stupid policies. They even limit how powerful our hoovers can be. We are paying all that money for that shit?

[leicsmac]

There's a discussion to be had on human nature and the causes of conflict but that's for another thread.

 

Yeah, we've swerved a bit and I apologise for that.

 

Regarding the topic itself, I'm still undecided, and I'm probably going to remain so for a while.

[digitalalba]

Yep, I believe fully in the individual, and safeguarding themselves and their family members. I also believe in having power decentralised and localised as much as possible.

 

I also believe that we're all human, and as such we should at some points look to make decisions that will benefit all of humanity, not just ourselves.

 

Everything inbetween, from towns to districts, cities and nations...not so much.

This is a joke reply right? You contradict yourself enormously.

[Alf Bentley]

It didn't do any use when we wanted to get rid of Abu whoever with the hook for a hand

 

 

 Abu Hamza ("Hook") was a long, complicated legal process, but it seemed to eventually work out in the end: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hamza_al-Masri#Extradition_to_the_United_States

 

He served his sentence for offences under UK jurisdiction and was kept on remand pending the US extradition case. The ECHR temporarily blocked his extradition until they were satisfied that he wouldn't be treated inhumanely. They were satisfied and passed the case back to the British courts. In turn, the UK High Court halted the extradition pending a final appeal. Abu Hamza lost this appeal, so he was extradited, tried in the US and is banged up for life without parole for offences committed over there.

 

Abu Qatada (NOT "Hook") is a different, if equally unsavoury bloke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Qatada

 

His case followed a similar path, though different in that he was never convicted of any offences in the UK. Again, the ECHR initially blocked his deportation to Jordan, but then rejected his case. Again, the UK authorities initially upheld his appeal (and released him on bail) but then allowed his deportation to Jordan once they'd received assurances that evidence obtained through torture wouldn't be used. I hadn't realised that he's now been acquitted and released in Jordan, though.....

 

Here's the relevant bit from Wiki: "Qatada was repeatedly imprisoned and released in the United Kingdom after he was first detained under anti-terrorism laws in 2002, but was not prosecuted for any crime.^[6][7][8] The Algerian government described Abu Qatada as being involved with Islamists in London and possibly elsewhere.^[9][10] After initially barring the United Kingdom from deporting Abu Qatada to Jordan, in May 2012 the European Court of Human Rights denied him leave to appeal against deportation without specifying a reason.^[11][12]

On 12 November 2012, the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC) upheld Abu Qatada's appeal against deportation and released him on restrictive bail conditions. The Home Secretary Theresa May said the government would appeal against the decision.^[13] He was deported to Jordan on 7 July 2013, after the UK and Jordanian governments agreed and ratified a treaty satisfying the need for clarification that evidence gained through torture would not be used against him in his forthcoming trial.^[14]

On 26 June 2014, Abu Qatada was found not guilty by a Jordan court of terrorism charges relating to an alleged 1998 plot. He remained in prison pending a verdict that was due September 2014 on a second alleged plot.^[15][4][5] On 24 September 2014, a panel of civilian judges sitting at Amman's State Security Court cleared him of being involved in a thwarted plot aimed at Western and Israeli targets in Jordan during the millennium celebrations in 2000. He was released from prison on 24 September 2014".

 

I'm not involving myself in time-consuming arguments, just assisting with the facts.....

[Carl the Llama]

Isn't that why we vote for MEPs, to effect legislation? 

Amongst other things, yes, that's what I'm trying to get across: They're the ones who along with the European Council (the heads of state) approve new laws or send them back to be revised.  Because our singular nation doesn't have full control of the European Parliament the same people who staunchly backed FPTP against a more fairly representative system are now crying about lack of democracy where there is no lack, you can't make it up.

 

 

I'm out all the way. Sick of the EU and all its stupid policies. They even limit how powerful our hoovers can be. We are paying all that money for that shit?

Another reason for the EU: International regulations aimed at promoting efficient technology and reducing pollution.

[Webbo]

Amongst other things, yes, that's what I'm trying to get across: They're the ones who along with the European Council (the heads of state) approve new laws or send them back to be revised.  Because our singular nation doesn't have full control of the European Parliament the same people who staunchly backed FPTP against a more fairly representative system are now crying about lack of democracy where there is no lack, you can't make it up.

 

 

 

I don't understand your point, we have proportional representation in EU elections.

[Carl the Llama]

I don't understand your point, we have proportional representation in EU elections.

And I don't understand yours because your past two posts seem to be agreeing with my stance that Europe is a democratic union.

[leicsmac]

This is a joke reply right? You contradict yourself enormously.

 

How so? It is possible to have localised power and individual rights while at the same time having meaningful direct input on decisions which affect everybody.

 

If that were not true, then most modern Western nation states (which are just the same thing on a smaller scale) wouldn't be able to function at all.

 

There's one person with his or her family, and then there's all of humanity. There doesn't have to be anything in between, not in this day and age. What separates people is ideology based on either a piece of land where you were born or words you read in an ancient book, both of which are absurd things to conflict over and simply don't have to be that way. But...they are, and it's probably not going to change any time soon.

 

I don't see the contradiction.

 

Sorry for possibly veering offtopic again Webs, but I thought it good to answer the question, and it does tie into the idea of the EU and sovereignty in a way.

[Webbo]

And I don't understand yours because your past two posts seem to be agreeing with my stance that Europe is a democratic union.

You're complaining about elected MEPs working against the European project, seems a bit typical to be. The fact that the largest British party in the European Parliament has no power to change anything sort of proves my point.

[Strokes]

I don't understand your point, we have proportional representation in EU elections.

You have to read my posts for his point, as apparently I'm making them for him

[Carl the Llama]

You're complaining about elected MEPs working against the European project, seems a bit typical to be. The fact that the largest British party in the European Parliament has no power to change anything sort of proves my point.

But they do.  They really do.  If they didn't then it wouldn't be so irritating watching them rock up to meetings to make loud arrogant remarks then bugger off or even worse not show up to the meeting at all and collect their pay cheque. 

 

You have to read my posts for his point, as apparently I'm making them for him

I'm sorry you don't get it, I must be doing a terrible job of explaining the concept.

[Strokes]

But they do.  They really do.  If they didn't then it wouldn't be so irritating watching them rock up to meetings to make loud arrogant remarks then bugger off or even worse not show up to the meeting at all and collect their pay cheque. 

 

I'm sorry you don't get it, I must be doing a terrible job of explaining the concept.

I get the concept Carl but I'm failing to see your point, maybe you should try understand why we don't feel very attached to the European project. Despite the entire voting population of Britain voting against the current governing alliance, it won by a huge majority. We are paying a huge amount of our taxes into a project that we do not feel a part of and do not feel we can influence, it doesn't matter whether it is UKIPS fault or the EUs fault, the only way we can change it, is vote out in June.

[Carl the Llama]

One of the biggest problems with the EU is the complicated interweaving of the individual institutions which comprise it and make the whole thing a bit of a tangled mess.  It certainly needs somewhat of a structural streamlining if at all possible.  Looking at the sort of statements coming from the out camp it's very clear that people don't understand its functions and procedures.  It would be a shame if we gave up on a good project because a too many people are either confused, haven't had a proper look at it, or have had matters deliberately misrepresented to them.

 

 

I get the concept Carl but I'm failing to see your point, maybe you should try understand why we don't feel very attached to the European project. Despite the entire voting population of Britain voting against the current governing alliance, it won by a huge majority. We are paying a huge amount of our taxes into a project that we do not feel a part of and do not feel we can influence, it doesn't matter whether it is UKIPS fault or the EUs fault, the only way we can change it, is vote out in June.

As has been said before that argument could apply to anyone who voted for a minority party in any democracy anywhere so please stop pretending that's your sticking point unless you also feel the UK government should be abolished too every time your preferred party fails to gain power.

[Claridge]

Will boris be an asset to the leave campaign?

I'm a Tory ,but can't stand boris

[Sharpe's Fox]

IDS says more chance of being hit by terrorists in EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624409

Load of tosh, but hopefully demonstrates to the In campaign we can scaremonger as well as you.