EU referendum opinion poll.

[bovril]

Modern politics 101.

 

Politician: "Vote the way I want you to."

Electorate: "Why?"

Politician: "Err.... terrorists."

[Carl the Llama]

IDS says more chance of being hit by terrorists in EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624409

Load of tosh, but hopefully demonstrates to the In campaign we can scaremonger as well as you.

This is exactly what I'm talking about - IDS is apparently under the impression that the EU has given us an open border where the closed border I travel through whenever I enter the UK is.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Will boris be an asset to the leave campaign?

I'm a Tory ,but can't stand boris

Yes because the campaign(s) for out can selectively use Farage now.

I can see us leaving the EU now, because come June I don't think there will be enough people strongly interested to actually turn up and vote "in" - even though I don't think that would be in our ultimate interests.

[Carl the Llama]

The talk from UK politicians about elites in Europe manipulating the continent like their personal marionette is equally cringeworthy and looking at them talk brings to mind one of my favourite Bad Religion lines:  You never stole from the rich to give to the poor, all you ever gave to them was a war and a foreign enemy to deplore.

 

(For the 'take Carl's words literally without applying critical thought' brigade:  Substitute the "rich" for "elites", the "poor" for "UK voters", and the "war" for "campaign based on misrepresentation in a blatant grab for more personal power because I don't like compromising for the benefit of an international community with people who don't speak my language and by that I mean I don't speak theirs".)

[The Year Of The Fox]

G'won Boris

[RobHawk]

Looking at the list of names for the out campaign has 100% made my mind up that it would be best to stay in!

[Stadt]

My worst fear is that we leave but then fearing the whole project collapsing the EU reforms and becomes less convoluted

[Strokes]

One of the biggest problems with the EU is the complicated interweaving of the individual institutions which comprise it and make the whole thing a bit of a tangled mess. It certainly needs somewhat of a structural streamlining if at all possible. Looking at the sort of statements coming from the out camp it's very clear that people don't understand its functions and procedures. It would be a shame if we gave up on a good project because a too many people are either confused, haven't had a proper look at it, or have had matters deliberately misrepresented to them.

As has been said before that argument could apply to anyone who voted for a minority party in any democracy anywhere so please stop pretending that's your sticking point unless you also feel the UK government should be abolished too every time your preferred party fails to gain power.

Its not the same as a minority party, its like the snp being in government despite not reresenting the whole uk. Ive bever pretended its my sticking point, i keep bringing it up because you keep brushing it aside with crap examples.

I will say it again, how can we change the bits we dont want, if the whole voting community the uk voted against the current ruling alliance. The answer i'm looking for is - we can't.

[LanguedocFox]

In my view, if the referendum results in a vote for the UK to leave the EU it would be a disaster. It would create massive uncertainty that would last for several years, it would likely cause serious problems for the City of London, and it would probably lead to the break-up of the EU, because the Scots would definitely want to stay in. As I say, in my view.

 

But a friend of mind down here made an interesting observation which I've not heard before, and which I thought was very acute. It's like this. Most of the British ex-pats living permanently in France (and I suspect, but don't know for sure, in Spain, Malta, Italy and other EU countries) are over 60. Talking purely about the people in this area of France - which I suspect is typical - most don't do any productive work, most pay very little tax, most enjoy the benefits of the French healthcare system, and many enjoy the French social-security benefits system. In fact, the UK government reimburses the French government for most of the social and health costs, but having the ex-pats here costs the French government a reasonable amount of money, imposes a burden on the French support system - and reduces massively the impact on, for example, the NHS. Incidentally, for the record I exempt myself from this because I still work, don't claim benefits, and pay income tax.

 

If the UK leaves the EU, ex-pats down here will no longer benefit from any of the French social or health services. Never mind that the UK contributes to the cost at the moment, as non-EU residents, they will simply not be allowed to use the system. So they will, in all probability, go back to the UK. The same thing will happen with most ex-pats living out their retirement years in other EU countries. These returning, elderly former ex-pats will continue to do no productive work, and will continue to pay very little tax - but they will impose a huge burden on services such as the NHS, because older people get ill more often.

 

The reverse is true in the UK. Most of the immigrants from the EU who come into the UK are young, and they want to come to the UK to work - in the leisure sector, in transport, in the NHS, in manufacturing... and on and on, where they pay taxes and (generally) don't impose a burden on UK social services. OK, so they can claim in-work benefits, and child benefit and so on. But there is plenty of statistical evidence that they make a net contribution to the UK economy. This is because they are productive - unlike the elderly British ex-pats who have left the UK for a better life elsewhere. And if the UK leaves the EU, most of these productive, tax-paying immigrants are likely to leave, leaving a massive hole in the UK workforce.

 

OK, so not all elderly ex-pats will go back to the UK. I won't, and neither will my friend who raised this issue: in fact we are both organising dual nationality - he's actually becoming a French national, which is really hard, whereas I can claim Irish nationality through my father. And not all of the young working EU immigrants to the UK will leave the UK. But it's likely that most older ex-pats will come back, and most younger immigrants will leave. And that could be disastrous for the UK economy.

 

As I say, I have not seen this issue raised by any politician on either side of the divide. OK, so people like Farage bluster that hard-working people will continue to be welcome here, but EU immigrants to the UK will feel very insecure - and they came here for security in the first place. And I know that many ex-pats are making contingency plans to move back to the UK.

[digitalalba]

How so? It is possible to have localised power and individual rights while at the same time having meaningful direct input on decisions which affect everybody.

 

If that were not true, then most modern Western nation states (which are just the same thing on a smaller scale) wouldn't be able to function at all.

 

There's one person with his or her family, and then there's all of humanity. There doesn't have to be anything in between, not in this day and age. What separates people is ideology based on either a piece of land where you were born or words you read in an ancient book, both of which are absurd things to conflict over and simply don't have to be that way. But...they are, and it's probably not going to change any time soon.

 

I don't see the contradiction.

 

Sorry for possibly veering offtopic again Webs, but I thought it good to answer the question, and it does tie into the idea of the EU and sovereignty in a way.

Borders are what countries have, as does your home, you're against country borders but not your home. You're happy for folk to move without borders, but not from home to home - contradiction?

 

Should all the countries of the world join the EU?

[Thracian]

IDS says more chance of being hit by terrorists in EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624409

Load of tosh, but hopefully demonstrates to the In campaign we can scaremonger as well as you.

Quite agree - and I don't think the remark was substantiated What I want to hear from the debate is convincing reasons for voting one way or the other.

[Carl the Llama]

Its not the same as a minority party, its like the snp being in government despite not reresenting the whole uk. Ive bever pretended its my sticking point, i keep bringing it up because you keep brushing it aside with crap examples.

I will say it again, how can we change the bits we dont want, if the whole voting community the uk voted against the current ruling alliance. The answer i'm looking for is - we can't.

Some facts for you.

 

In the current European Parliament there are:

20 labour MEPs in the 2nd largest political group in the EU (S&D), 20 conservatives and 1 ulster unionist in the 3rd largest (ECR), and then 9 others from UK parties elsewhere before you get to the 22 UKIP members allied with the suspect Italian 5 Stars party and the 1 UKIP member who thought that wasn't exreme enough and got in bed with the French National Front.

 

That's a nice little spread of politicians from the UK throughout the Parliament, most of them willingly contributing to debates on legislation, budgets and the like.  None of them are in the largest PG though so we already have a Europe where UK voters have, if we're being incredibly pedantic, voted "against the current ruling alliance" and the answer to your question is by contacting whichever MEPs are affiliated with the PG most likely to represent your interests and try getting them put forward. If that still fails then you know that your opinion is a minority one and democracy has triumphed for the masses once more.

[digitalalba]

George Galloway on Twitter,

 

"If we leave the EU London can become the effective capital city of the world."

 

That doesn't sound like economic destruction to me.

[Strokes]

Some facts for you.

In the current European Parliament there are:

20 labour MEPs in the 2nd largest political group in the EU (S&D), 20 conservatives and 1 ulster unionist in the 3rd largest (ECR), and then 9 others from UK parties elsewhere before you get to the 22 UKIP members allied with the suspect Italian 5 Stars party and the 1 UKIP member who thought that wasn't exreme enough and got in bed with the French National Front.

That's a nice little spread of politicians from the UK throughout the Parliament, most of them willingly contributing to debates on legislation, budgets and the like. None of them are in the largest PG though so we already have a Europe where UK voters have, if we're being incredibly pedantic, voted "against the current ruling alliance" and the answer to your question is by contacting whichever MEPs are affiliated with the PG most likely to represent your interests and try getting them put forward. If that still fails then you know that your opinion is a minority one and democracy has triumphed for the masses once more.

I am aware of this, i looked at it just yesterday, it doesnt really address my point though.

[Webbo]

Some facts for you.

 

In the current European Parliament there are:

20 labour MEPs in the 2nd largest political group in the EU (S&D), 20 conservatives and 1 ulster unionist in the 3rd largest (ECR), and then 9 others from UK parties elsewhere before you get to the 22 UKIP members allied with the suspect Italian 5 Stars party and the 1 UKIP member who thought that wasn't exreme enough and got in bed with the French National Front.

 

That's a nice little spread of politicians from the UK throughout the Parliament, most of them willingly contributing to debates on legislation, budgets and the like.  None of them are in the largest PG though so we already have a Europe where UK voters have, if we're being incredibly pedantic, voted "against the current ruling alliance" and the answer to your question is by contacting whichever MEPs are affiliated with the PG most likely to represent your interests and try getting them put forward. If that still fails then you know that your opinion is a minority one and democracy has triumphed for the masses once more.

You've completely missed the point. Britain will always be a minority in Europe, we can only get what we want with the permission of others. Why should we need permission to do the things we want? It's not like the EU is a massive success.

[Webbo]

 

George Galloway on Twitter,

 

"If we leave the EU London can become the effective capital city of the world."

 

That doesn't sound like economic destruction to me.

 

Tbf, who cares what George Galloway thinks?

[Carl the Llama]

I am aware of this, i looked at it just yesterday, it doesnt really address my point though.

I suppose not because as the post I quoted said, "the answer I'm looking for is you can't" but I provided an intelligent response which proved that wrong.  If you want to keep brushing aside the "crap examples" I keep offering you without providing any examples or critical analysis of real life facts of your own then please just let me know I needn't bother trying to debate with you.

[Strokes]

I suppose not because as the post I quoted said, "the answer I'm looking for is you can't" but I provided an intelligent response which proved that wrong. If you want to keep brushing aside the "crap examples" I keep offering you without providing any examples or critical analysis of real life facts of your own then please just let me know I needn't bother trying to debate with you.

So if we all voted labour and S&D had the extra 33 meps, would the S&D be the ruling party?

[Carl the Llama]

You've completely missed the point. Britain will always be a minority in Europe, we can only get what we want with the permission of others. Why should we need permission to do the things we want? It's not like the EU is a massive success.

As will Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Finland, Malta, Belgium, Austria, Croatia, Poland, Romania, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Portugal, Ireland, Luxembourg, Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Sweden, the Netherlands, Greece, Hungary, Slovenia, and Slovakia.  Everyone will always be a minority in Europe.  The whole thing works by political groups from different countries allying to provide a solid framework to push their views forward in a democratic environment.  I'm baffled that the same people who were lording over the democratic process of Conservative government can't wrap their heads around this idea (tbf I don't think that means you Webbo).

So if we all voted labour and S&D had the extra 33 meps, would the S&D be the ruling party?

No but they'd be the group with the largest voice.

[Webbo]

As will Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Finland, Malta, Belgium, Austria, Croatia, Poland, Romania, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Portugal, Ireland, Luxembourg, Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Sweden, the Netherlands, Greece, Hungary, Slovenia, and Slovakia.  Everyone will always be a minority in Europe.  The whole thing works by political groups from different countries allying to provide a solid framework to push their views forward in a democratic environment.  I'm baffled that the same people who were lording over the democratic process of Conservative government can't wrap their heads around this idea.

No but they'd be the one with the largest voice.

But I've no interest in telling any other country what to do.

 

It's not even vaguely comparable with a British election. We could have 100% of the population in this country vote for party X but if Europe vote the other way we'll be governed by party Y. Can you not grasp that?

[digitalalba]

Tbf, who cares what George Galloway thinks?

Well yeah, he is a maniac, though sometimes he is worth listening to

February 13

[Carl the Llama]

But I've no interest in telling any other country what to do.

 

It's not even vaguely comparable with a British election. We could have 100% of the population in this country vote for party X but if Europe vote the other way we'll be governed by party Y. Can you not grasp that?

I grasp that notion very easily but unfortunately it misunderstands the process I've been describing.  The EU can't be 'governed' (or more accurately have policymaking influenced) by any one single national party, none of them can ever possibly be large enough.  We vote for our MEPs based on their politics, those MEPs then seek alliance with other like-minded MEPs.  Eventually a general shape of Europe's current political climate forms and the discussions which proceed over the ensuing years fairly represent this (presuming the MEPs show up for them). 

 

If all of the UK voted UKIP then yeah it's probably fair to say we should leave the EU.  That so many did shows there's discontent but that similar numbers of Labour and Conservative MEPs got the nod too shows that it's not a black and white "Britain wants x" debate.

[Alf Bentley]

But I've no interest in telling any other country what to do.

 

It's not even vaguely comparable with a British election. We could have 100% of the population in this country vote for party X but if Europe vote the other way we'll be governed by party Y. Can you not grasp that?

 

 

The SNP would view it as pretty comparable with a British election. They won about 55 of 58 seats (admittedly on 50% of the vote, not 100%) and the rest of the UK voted the other way and are governing them.

 

Come to that, Leicester voted massively for Labour but we get those Tory gits outvoting and governing us. Leicester should secede from the UK so that it can get the govt it wants. 

 

Of course, in the past, we've often formed part of the majority at European Parliament level: back when Labour was in power and the Socialists were the European majority - and when the Tories were in power but were part of the main centre-right grouping at European level.

[Webbo]

The SNP would view it as pretty comparable with a British election. They won about 55 of 58 seats (admittedly on 50% of the vote, not 100%) and the rest of the UK voted the other way and are governing them.

 

Come to that, Leicester voted massively for Labour but we get those Tory gits outvoting and governing us. Leicester should secede from the UK so that it can get the govt it wants. 

 

Of course, in the past, we've often formed part of the majority at European Parliament level: back when Labour was in power and the Socialists were the European majority - and when the Tories were in power but were part of the main centre-right grouping at European level.

The UK is a country though, Europe isn't. The Scots had a vote on independence and decided against it.

 

The people who vote in council elections vote in national elections too. We've just had 27 heads of state telling us what we can't do and we can't vote against any of them.

[Strokes]

The SNP would view it as pretty comparable with a British election. They won about 55 of 58 seats (admittedly on 50% of the vote, not 100%) and the rest of the UK voted the other way and are governing them.

Come to that, Leicester voted massively for Labour but we get those Tory gits outvoting and governing us. Leicester should secede from the UK so that it can get the govt it wants.

Of course, in the past, we've often formed part of the majority at European Parliament level: back when Labour was in power and the Socialists were the European majority - and when the Tories were in power but were part of the main centre-right grouping at European level.

There is nothing stopping the SNP standing for election in the south, the scots are welcome to and have in the past, voted for a further reaching party. We don't have that advantage. I said to you before Alf, I could get possibly get onboard more with the EU if national representation was taken more out of it and parties were exclusively European and campaigned for as such. I think the electorate would feel more involved and probably more aware.