EU referendum opinion poll.

[m4DD0gg]

Bottom line the average english citizen has had enough and wants out....the sooner the better.

[Strokes]

We'd probably become a less affluent Norway. All the EU laws (they'd set the terms of trade, not us) and none of the influence over the executive. Remember, the European Parliament is just one part of the EU. Our elected government is part of all laws proposed by the EU executive as it is part of it. The parliament does not (cannot) propose laws - it's is legislative only.

It would be nothing like Norway, we buy and sell over £450 billion of trade with the EU and you think they are going to ride roughshod over that. They will go weak at the knees to try and keep it, the whole project could be in jeopardy if they don't.

[Nalis]

23 June it is then!

Surprised it is this early but strike while the iron is hot I guess.

[Carl the Llama]

So how come we keep having these laws imposed on us?

Such as?  Which EU directive took the jam out of your doughnut?

 

Thanks for explaining that to me but you're talking bollox. There are rules imposed on us every week that never voted for and can't opt out of. UKIP are the biggest British party in Europe and yet Europe continues with policies they are opposed to.

Wanting more integration is a legitimate opinion to hold, personally I'd rather we made our own laws.

Well that's just rude.  Again, which of these new weekly laws are camped in your driveway waiting to accost the doughnut delivery guy and steal the jam from all the ones marked "Webbo, Little England"?  Also, it's really just as well the EU has a majority voice that disagrees with the childish UKIP MEPs, many of those voices are Conservative, Lib Dem, and Labour MEPs from our fair isle so we are being represented despite what Farage's leaflets might try to tell people.

 

It's a fault in the Structure of the EU that this can even happen. It's not the fault of the British parties.

It's a fault in the structure of the UK government that someone can vote for the Lib Dems and end up with them in coalition with the party that most starkly contrasts with that person's political views, it's not the fault of the EU that our system sucks.  See, I can do it too.

[bovril]

Pictures of Farage and Galloway laughing and joking together at the "GO" rally this evening is brilliant for the stay campaign.

I'm really hoping for a Waddle / Hoddle style anti-EU single in June.

[Carl the Llama]

Bottom line the average english citizen has had enough and wants out....the sooner the better.

Is that what the polls are saying?  Hopefully the above average English citizen votes in more numbers and commits their grey cells to the matter rather than being taken in by blithe populist statements with no basis.

[lgfualol]

Is that what the polls are saying? Hopefully the above average English citizen votes in more numbers and commits their grey cells to the matter rather than being taken in by blithe populist statements with no basis.

No chance of that happening.

[Thracian]

It's an easy decision for me. None of the scaremongering impresses me (especially from the likes of Kinnock with his conveniently false figures) because no-one's going to willingly chuck away the business income from 70 million people. And we're sitting on vast wealth so money shouldn't be a problem - at least for the forseeable future.

People need to remember that the UK will still be a part of the Europe - and an increasingly important one as time goes on (but on our terms) - because our withdrawal from the EU will place massive pressure on the entire concept.

The EU will doubtless try to make things uncomfortable for us in some ways but they've got an enormous amount to lose in alienating the UK and we, meanwhile, will surely be enlarging our trading markets elsewhere and increasing the worldwide influence (and allies) we should never have compromised in the first place.

To say we'll be losing our influence in the EU is nonsense. We've not got any of any consequence. The EU is an orchestra which plays a far different tune to anything that makes easy listening to me. So Europe needs to change and our leaving the EU might well serve to help in time.

That we've gone along this far (and so deviously) makes me cringe and more especially with the problems such misguided thinking has created in respect of our infrastructure, our sense of wellbeing, our laws and our philosophy.

The only lasting worry I have is that so much of the EU's stupidity seems to be mirrored over here and there are so many misguided activists intent on maintaining those influences everywhere from the universities and on into the legal framework of all our institutions and workplaces.

Laws which protect some and have such a negative impact on others.

We need a massive change in our legal framework that reflects fairness to everyone (accused and affected), not the disadvantages and injustice that's resulted from the so-called "fairness" effected on us by devious lawyers and politicians serving their own ends and agendas.

People need to be suspicious.

The press needs its freedom back and every opportunity to investigate every aspect of potential corruption because it's no use uncovering it when the damage is done whether it involve government, the police, the health service, the immigration service, the education authorities or anything else.

It could be argued that the entire mess - all the death, maiming and destruction - which has decimated great swathes of the Middle East is down to the lies of Tony Blair, George Bush and their collective associates in the European community.

So I'll take independence and full accountability anyday and the kind of laws that reflect that independence and accountability. Far to much that's happened in the EU has never been approved by the people of this land and never should have been had sanity prevailed.

The EU? I'm Out!

[digitalalba]

23 June it is then!

Surprised it is this early but strike while the iron is hot I guess.

 "I do not love Brussels, I love Britain...the question is - will be we safer, stronger and better off working together in a reformed Europe or out on our own?"

 

Isn't it strange how someone who claims to love Britain and doesn't love Brussels, wants to be at least partially ruled over by them, when he can rule over all Britain himself, and, he questions whether we'd be safer etc with his 'reformation' in the EU?

 

Is the leader of the In campaign, mentally stable?

[Webbo]

Such as?  Which EU directive took the jam out of your doughnut?

 

Well that's just rude.  Again, which of these new weekly laws are camped in your driveway waiting to accost the doughnut delivery guy and steal the jam from all the ones marked "Webbo, Little England"?  Also, it's really just as well the EU has a majority voice that disagrees with the childish UKIP MEPs, many of those voices are Conservative, Lib Dem, and Labour MEPs from our fair isle so we are being represented despite what Farage's leaflets might try to tell people.

 

It's a fault in the structure of the UK government that someone can vote for the Lib Dems and end up with them in coalition with the party that most starkly contrasts with that person's political views, it's not the fault of the EU that our system sucks.  See, I can do it too.

For a start, can we stop with the jammy doughnuts and little Englander stuff? Implying people are stupid and racist adds nothing to your argument.

 

I didn't want to make this about the migrant thing because that's a side issue to me but it is an example of my point, the majority of people in this country don't want uncontrolled immigration from Europe, even the Labour party are pretending to be bothered about it now but we can't stop it because Europe tells us we can't.So we want to reduce benefits to those workers from those countries but Europe tells we can't. Whose taxes are those benefits coming out of? When did we get a vote on whether we wanted to do those things?

 

You'll say that we have the right to work in their countries but I don't want to go to Romania to live off their benefits for obvious reasons so it's always going to be a one way thing.

 

Now you live in Belgium, Fif lives in France so you'll vote for your own self interest, nothing wrong with that. Don't insult others in this country because they do the same.

[Carl the Llama]

For a start, can we stop with the jammy doughnuts and little Englander stuff? Implying people are stupid and racist adds nothing to your argument.

Sorry Webbo didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I personally thought I was being much more polite than telling someone they're talking bollox but there you go.

 

I didn't want to make this about the migrant thing because that's a side issue to me but it is an example of my point, the majority of people in this country don't want uncontrolled immigration from Europe, even the Labour party are pretending to be bothered about it now but we can't stop it because Europe tells us we can't.So we want to reduce benefits to those workers from those countries but Europe tells we can't. Whose taxes are those benefits coming out of? When did we get a vote on whether we wanted to do those things?

EU migrants can only draw from the same benefits as you if they're fully employed - a situation where they're de facto not scrounging off the state any more than you would be.  3 months after entry if they still haven't found a job and can't prove they'll be likely to find one any time soon then it's back home they go.  Reducing benefits to EU workers is just a populist manoeuvre which flies in the face of our already fair EU migration laws (despite what Murdoch et al. would have you believe).

 

You'll say that we have the right to work in their countries but I don't want to go to Romania to live off their benefits for obvious reasons so it's always going to be a one way thing.

Wow.  You talk of Romanians coming into Britain to take your tax money and you don't want me to make Little England comments?  I'll try not to.

 

Now you live in Belgium, Fif lives in France so you'll vote for your own self interest, nothing wrong with that. Don't insult others in this country because they do the same.

Actually I'm in the middle of trying to sort out a return to the UK so no, my country of residence has bugger all to do with my views.

[Webbo]

 

 

 

Wow.  You talk of Romanians flooding into Britain to take your tax money and you don't want me to make Little England comments?  I'll try not to.

 

 

 

Can you point out where I said there were Romanians flooding into Britain?

 

Secondly I'm part of the UK and it's not that little so" little England" is a silly thing to say.

 

I lack neither the intelligence nor the life experience to make up my own mind, I don't read the Sun or the Times so, believe it or not,my views definitely haven't been influenced by the Murdoch press.

[Carl the Llama]

Can you point out where I said there were Romanians flooding into Britain?

 

Secondly I'm part of the UK and it's not that little so" little England" is a silly thing to say.

 

I lack neither the intelligence nor the life experience to make up my own mind, I don't read the Sun or the Times so, believe it or not,my views definitely haven't been influenced by the Murdoch press.

When you say " I don't want to go to Romania to live off their benefits for obvious reasons so it's always going to be a one way thing" it very clearly means that you think Romanians want to come to the UK to live off benefits.  I didn't restate your words verbatim in my last comment (chiefly because they were quoted within it) but come on Webbo your meaning is perfectly clear.  

 

As for "little England", it's a well known phrase which I believe applies to your comments on this issue, if we're arguing the semantics of each word I choose to use I then take it you concede that I might be making a good point in general?

[Webbo]

When you say " I don't want to go to Romania to live off their benefits for obvious reasons so it's always going to be a one way thing" it very clearly means that you think Romanians want to come to the UK to live off benefits.  I didn't restate your words verbatim in my last comment (chiefly because they were quoted within it) but come on Webbo your meaning is perfectly clear.  

 

As for "little England", it's a well known phrase which I believe applies to your comments on this issue, if we're arguing the semantics of each word I choose to use I then take it you concede that I might be making a good point in general?

I didn't say flooding so that's an exaggeration on your part.

 

Little England is a well known derogatory term, implying racism. If you mean I put my country first then you are correct, what's wrong with that? I have no wish to tell other countries how to run their affairs, they're entitled, in my opinion, to do what's best for them as well.

[Carl the Llama]

 

I didn't say flooding so that's an exaggeration on your part.

 

Little England is a well known derogatory term, implying racism. If you mean I put my country first then you are correct, what's wrong with that? I have no wish to tell other countries how to run their affairs, they're entitled, in my opinion, to do what's best for them as well.

Fine... "Wow.  You talk of Romanians flooding coming into Britain to take your tax money and you don't want me to make Little England comments?  I'll try not to."  I've edited the post above for your benefit.  I happen to know a lot of Romanians as a result of the school I went to; one of them's currently an immigrant in Rome where he works for the ESA as an outside contractor, the others all now work office jobs in the Brussels area which require them to coordinate with their colleagues in either French or English.  One of them has a sister who lives in England while she attends King's College.  Those damn uneducated scroungers.

 

Xenophobia is what I think you're displaying here, not racism.  That and a misguided sense that foreigners see Britain as some utopian state, which I can promise you is not true.

 

I don't think any nation should be put first, we're all members of the same universe at the end of the day.

[Carl the Llama]

Oh and one of aforementioned Romanians who I've not spoken to in a few months was the first person to text me commiserations after the Welbeck goal.  Good folk them lot.

[Carl the Llama]

One further point:  Don't put yourself down Webbo you're clearly a very intelligent guy which is why I'm regularly happy to engage in discussions with you, it just happens that I think you're very misguided in this instance.

[Webbo]

 

 

Fine... "Wow.  You talk of Romanians flooding coming into Britain to take your tax money and you don't want me to make Little England comments?  I'll try not to."  I've edited the post above for your benefit.  I happen to know a lot of Romanians as a result of the school I went to; one of them's currently an immigrant in Rome where he works for the ESA as an outside contractor, the others all now work office jobs in the Brussels area which require them to coordinate with their colleagues in either French or English.  One of them has a sister who lives in England while she attends King's College.  Those damn uneducated scroungers.

 

Xenophobia is what I think you're displaying here, not racism.  That and a misguided sense that foreigners see Britain as some utopian state, which I can promise you is not true.

 

I don't think any nation should be put first, we're all members of the same universe at the end of the day.

 

It's only xenophobia if you fear or hate foreigners. I don't hate or fear Romanians, Poles or any other nationality that wants to come here to work. They want to improve their lot and that's an admirable quality but  their wants are not my concern.

 

As I said earlier migrants are a side issue for me. It's not that they are coming here, it's that we have no choice in the matter. 

[Carl the Llama]

It's only xenophobia if you fear or hate foreigners. I don't hate or fear Romanians, Poles or any other nationality that wants to come here to work. They want to improve their lot and that's an admirable quality but  their wants are not my concern.

 

As I said earlier migrants are a side issue for me. It's not that they are coming here, it's that we have no choice in the matter. 

We do though just not in specific circumstances ie. when it contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights which our democratically elected government ratified and which incidentally falls under the scope of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg and not the EU institutions aka Brussels.

[Webbo]

We do though just not in specific circumstances ie. when it contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights which our democratically elected government ratified and which incidentally falls under the scope of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg and not the EU institutions aka Brussels.

Pretty sure rules on benefits have nothing to do with the convention on Human Rights.

 

The present democratically elected govt, which had reducing immigration and migrant benefits as part of it manifesto have tried to change the rules on these things and have been told they can't, so that's not democratic.

[Carl the Llama]

Pretty sure rules on benefits have nothing to do with the convention on Human Rights.

 

The present democratically elected govt, which had reducing immigration and migrant benefits as part of it manifesto have tried to change the rules on these things and have been told they can't, so that's not democratic.

There have been lengthy debates between Cameron and the other democratically elected heads of state within the EU.  If Cameron can't convince a majority to agree with his view and therefore doesn't get his way then that's democracy in action, not inaction.

[Webbo]

There have been lengthy debates between Cameron and the other democratically elected heads of state within the EU.  If Cameron can't convince a majority to agree with his view and therefore doesn't get his way then that's democracy in action, not inaction.

Tell me how I can vote against the people who've blocked his plan?

[Carl the Llama]

Tell me how I can vote against the people who've blocked his plan?

You can't, they've been voted in by the people whose interests they represent. It's like a bloke from Massachusetts complaining about a bill ratified by the US House of Representatives because they don't get to vote for the Representative of North Carolina.

[The Doctor]

Tell me how I can vote against the people who've blocked his plan?

You can't, just as you can't vote against the SNP if they look to block plans in Westminster. Doesn't make our parliamentary system undemocratic though does it?

[Thracian]

There have been lengthy debates between Cameron and the other democratically elected heads of state within the EU.  If Cameron can't convince a majority to agree with his view and therefore doesn't get his way then that's democracy in action, not inaction.

And there's the problem with democracy. Because others disagree with you it doesn't mean your own view is wrong. So-called unions - of any kind - mean the inevitable compromising of individual opinions - or the coercion of agreement. They are not really "unions" at all. Just gangs conveniently assembled to increase power and influence through the pressure of the "mass", whatever the cost to rightness or the views of those who disagree.