Labour party civil war

[Rincewind]

I had a smile at this.

 

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/06/30/jeremy-corbyn-blamed-for-death-of-princess-diana/

[Alf Bentley]

I had a smile at this.

 

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/06/30/jeremy-corbyn-blamed-for-death-of-princess-diana/

 

 

Although this link is humorous, I hate the "unjustified victim of criticism" concept that is behind it - and behind many other pro-Corbyn posts on Facebook etc.

 

The Corbynistas like to quote the fact that about 2/3 of Labour voters supported Remain.

 

But what proportion of Labour voters supported Remain in working-class seats across the North and Midlands? As many of those seats had 60%-70% support for Leave, quite clearly a high proportion of Labour voters supported Leave in such areas.

The fact that 2/3 of Labour voters supported Remain nationwide is clearly down to very high proportions voting that way in London and a few other big cities, the South and Scotland.

 

Corbyn supporters are implicitly saying that it is a good achievement that Labour delivered its support for Remain in London, Scotland and other comparatively prosperous areas - but did not have the support of most of its supporters in deindustrialised areas, struggling smaller towns/cities in the North/Midlands etc.

 

On the contrary, I think that it's disastrous for Labour and for politics in this country that, on the biggest issue for decades, Labour apparently doesn't speak for large swathes of the working class and people who are struggling - and that its leader's supporters are content to mainly speak for less hard-pressed, more cosmopolitan people in big cities (people like me, indeed).

 

There is an obvious risk of masses of working-class Labour voters switching to UKIP, once it becomes clear that the post-Brexit Tory Govt isn't going to greatly improve their quality of life or to remove large numbers of immigrants.

 

Corbyn must go - and must be replaced by a leader who sees this as an existential crisis to be addressed immediately. Otherwise, sadly I struggle to see a future for Labour.

[Strokes]

Although this link is humorous, I hate the "unjustified victim of criticism" concept that is behind it - and behind many other pro-Corbyn posts on Facebook etc.

 

The Corbynistas like to quote the fact that about 2/3 of Labour voters supported Remain.

 

But what proportion of Labour voters supported Remain in working-class seats across the North and Midlands? As many of those seats had 60%-70% support for Leave, quite clearly a high proportion of Labour voters supported Leave in such areas.

The fact that 2/3 of Labour voters supported Remain nationwide is clearly down to very high proportions voting that way in London and a few other big cities, the South and Scotland.

 

Corbyn supporters are implicitly saying that it is a good achievement that Labour delivered its support for Remain in London, Scotland and other comparatively prosperous areas - but did not have the support of most of its supporters in deindustrialised areas, struggling smaller towns/cities in the North/Midlands etc.

 

On the contrary, I think that it's disastrous for Labour and for politics in this country that, on the biggest issue for decades, Labour apparently doesn't speak for large swathes of the working class and people who are struggling - and that its leader's supporters are content to mainly speak for less hard-pressed, more cosmopolitan people in big cities (people like me, indeed).

 

There is an obvious risk of masses of working-class Labour voters switching to UKIP, once it becomes clear that the post-Brexit Tory Govt isn't going to greatly improve their quality of life or to remove large numbers of immigrants.

 

Corbyn must go - and must be replaced by a leader who sees this as an existential crisis to be addressed immediately. Otherwise, sadly I struggle to see a future for Labour.

Brilliant summary Alf, exactly how I see it. As a Tory voter in the last election but not a dyed in the wool Tory, I will be watching both these parties closely before any general election. Iwill happily vote for UKIP if I think they are selling brexit short.

[Darkon84]

Well said Alf. It echoed my sentiments wonderfully and worded far better than I ever could (as usual). This whole 'movement' or 'grass roots troops' thing he has going on at the moment is dangerous at best. The country needs a strong opposition and under JC, it appears to be getting weaker by the minute.

[Sharpe's Fox]

I think the 2/3 Labour voters for Remain is a rock solid argument. The figure is the same for the SNP yet Sturgeon believes she has a mandate of nation building out of it.

[Strokes]

I think the 2/3 Labour voters for Remain is a rock solid argument. The figure is the same for the SNP yet Sturgeon believes she has a mandate of nation building out of it.

It's a tough one, a lot of labour voters had already abandoned them because of their stance on the EU. They need to find a middle ground somewhere.

[Alf Bentley]

I think the 2/3 Labour voters for Remain is a rock solid argument. The figure is the same for the SNP yet Sturgeon believes she has a mandate of nation building out of it.

 

 

The argument and the SNP comparison is rock solid only if you're content with Labour representing large numbers of people in big cities and prosperous areas, but not representing people in deindustralised areas who are struggling on low incomes.

 

There's nothing implicitly wrong about that. For decades, the French Socialist Party has largely represented an alliance of unionised public-sector workers in secure employment and middle-class left-wing intellectuals. It used to be the French Communist Party that represented most industrial workers in the private sector etc. Now, as those French industrial areas have gone into decline, as they have in the UK, it is Le Pen's Front National who mainly speak for those in the French working class who have been left behind in poverty.

 

At least, in France, they have different electoral systems that allow the French Socialist Party to get into power sometimes. In the UK, the risk is that Labour will find itself locked out of power - and unable to implement any of Corbyn's policies (many of which I agree with) - for the foreseeable future, because its angry, despairing voters in deindustralised areas have switched to UKIP, handing power to the Tories almost in perpetuity (especially when combined with Scottish independence or SNP dominance in Scotland).

[Guest]

The argument and the SNP comparison is rock solid only if you're content with Labour representing large numbers of people in big cities and prosperous areas, but not representing people in deindustralised areas who are struggling on low incomes.

 

There's nothing implicitly wrong about that. For decades, the French Socialist Party has largely represented an alliance of unionised public-sector workers in secure employment and middle-class left-wing intellectuals. It used to be the French Communist Party that represented most industrial workers in the private sector etc. Now, as those French industrial areas have gone into decline, as they have in the UK, it is Le Pen's Front National who mainly speak for those in the French working class who have been left behind in poverty.

 

At least, in France, they have different electoral systems that allow the French Socialist Party to get into power sometimes. In the UK, the risk is that Labour will find itself locked out of power - and unable to implement any of Corbyn's policies (many of which I agree with) - for the foreseeable future, because its angry, despairing voters in deindustralised areas have switched to UKIP, handing power to the Tories almost in perpetuity (especially when combined with Scottish independence or SNP dominance in Scotland).

 

That's the labour party and the voters fault/choice Alf.

[Guest MattP]

The argument and the SNP comparison is rock solid only if you're content with Labour representing large numbers of people in big cities and prosperous areas, but not representing people in deindustralised areas who are struggling on low incomes.

 

There's nothing implicitly wrong about that. For decades, the French Socialist Party has largely represented an alliance of unionised public-sector workers in secure employment and middle-class left-wing intellectuals. It used to be the French Communist Party that represented most industrial workers in the private sector etc. Now, as those French industrial areas have gone into decline, as they have in the UK, it is Le Pen's Front National who mainly speak for those in the French working class who have been left behind in poverty.

 

At least, in France, they have different electoral systems that allow the French Socialist Party to get into power sometimes. In the UK, the risk is that Labour will find itself locked out of power - and unable to implement any of Corbyn's policies (many of which I agree with) - for the foreseeable future, because its angry, despairing voters in deindustralised areas have switched to UKIP, handing power to the Tories almost in perpetuity (especially when combined with Scottish independence or SNP dominance in Scotland).

 

I think a lot of people in Labour are already underestimating the size of the task in front of them, assuming Scotland is gone for Labour to win in 2020 after the boundary changes they are going to need to win seats like North West Leicestershire, Watford and Kensington, seats now with 10,000 Tory majorites.

 

The idea Corbyn can do this (as his supporters still claim) is to live in a World of delusion no normal person should even entertain.

[Alf Bentley]

That's the labour party and the voters fault/choice Alf.

 

 

I agree, FIF. But the Labour Party can make different choices to avoid ending up excluded from power/influence: e.g. keep many of Corbyn's policies, but ditch some, ditch him & address immigration more overtly - which doesn't mean aping UKIP.

 

A range of policies that address the concerns of struggling Lab Brexit voters in troubled areas might win many voters back; likewise, a more streetwise leader who comes across better to uncommitted voters on TV. A "decent man" with policies that sound perfect to committed lefties in big cities isn't going to cut it.

 

It might already be too late for the next election, if that happens this autumn. But it might not, as the Tories are also in chaos and economic problems could make them more unpopular within months - and UKIP are quite capable of alienating support (Farage, in particular). It's also possible that there won't be an early election - potentially 3-4 years to build support. 

[Guest]

I agree, FIF. But the Labour Party can make different choices to avoid ending up excluded from power/influence: e.g. keep many of Corbyn's policies, but ditch some, ditch him & address immigration more overtly - which doesn't mean aping UKIP.

 

A range of policies that address the concerns of struggling Lab Brexit voters in troubled areas might win many voters back; likewise, a more streetwise leader who comes across better to uncommitted voters on TV. A "decent man" with policies that sound perfect to committed lefties in big cities isn't going to cut it.

 

It might already be too late for the next election, if that happens this autumn. But it might not, as the Tories are also in chaos and economic problems could make them more unpopular within months - and UKIP are quite capable of alienating support (Farage, in particular). It's also possible that there won't be an early election - potentially 3-4 years to build support. 

 

I agree with you and don't think it's too late.

 

But I think there's no will for that in the party. The "revolutionaries" have taken over  - and that's not JC but his followers - and they are not going to let go until Labour is the minority party that a British Communist party would be.

 

A new "moderate" Labour party could do it, even if it was set-up now but the populous needs to see that the "crazy activists" are not part of the Labour party.

 

Don't think the Labour MPs have the balls to go for power.

 

My hope is that the Tories can put themselves in turmoil with this Brexit vote and then even the playing field a bit but then are the Liberals capable of moving back into the frame - I've heard nothing from them in what could be their most opportune moment. If not it's UKIP and SNP and PC that are going to pick up the votes. These are parites with clear intentions and no in-fighting. 

[Alf Bentley]

I agree with you and don't think it's too late.

 

But I think there's no will for that in the party. The "revolutionaries" have taken over  - and that's not JC but his followers - and they are not going to let go until Labour is the minority party that a British Communist party would be.

 

A new "moderate" Labour party could do it, even if it was set-up now but the populous needs to see that the "crazy activists" are not part of the Labour party.

 

Don't think the Labour MPs have the balls to go for power.

 

My hope is that the Tories can put themselves in turmoil with this Brexit vote and then even the playing field a bit but then are the Liberals capable of moving back into the frame - I've heard nothing from them in what could be their most opportune moment. If not it's UKIP and SNP and PC that are going to pick up the votes. These are parites with clear intentions and no in-fighting. 

 

 

Your pessimism about the "revolutionary" takeover of Labour and the lack of a response from other Labour folk may or may not be justified. Too early to say yet.

 

The Lib Dems plan to run on a platform of cancelling Brexit and returning to the EU at the next election....not sure how that will work.

 

I don't think UKIP do have "clear intentions and no in-fighting". Their 1 MP (Carswell) is at daggers-drawn with Farage & expresses much more socially tolerant, libertarian right views. My impression is that he's angling for a return to the Tory party. Some of the other UKIP leaders seem a bit similar. However, I can imagine Carswell and 1 or 2 others being sidelined, with UKIP under Farage focusing heavily on immigration and any "sell-out of Brexit", maybe with a few populist add-ons like extra cash for the NHS. It could then become a more united party with "clear intentions" - a more overtly anti-immigrant party - as our departure from the EU is confirmed (assuming that it is).

[Guest]

Your pessimism about the "revolutionary" takeover of Labour and the lack of a response from other Labour folk may or may not be justified. Too early to say yet.

 

The Lib Dems plan to run on a platform of cancelling Brexit and returning to the EU at the next election....not sure how that will work.

 

I don't think UKIP do have "clear intentions and no in-fighting". Their 1 MP (Carswell) is at daggers-drawn with Farage & expresses much more socially tolerant, libertarian right views. My impression is that he's angling for a return to the Tory party. Some of the other UKIP leaders seem a bit similar. However, I can imagine Carswell and 1 or 2 others being sidelined, with UKIP under Farage focusing heavily on immigration and any "sell-out of Brexit", maybe with a few populist add-ons like extra cash for the NHS. It could then become a more united party with "clear intentions" - a more overtly anti-immigrant party - as our departure from the EU is confirmed (assuming that it is).

 

That could be good for Lib Dems.

 

I think Carswell would like to re-join the Tories ranks too. He could've ran for leader.

[johnny the fox]

I had a smile at this.

 

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/06/30/jeremy-corbyn-blamed-for-death-of-princess-diana/

has legs for me..definitely something in this..he can't prove where he was that night..and that is a fact.. . then again if he had of been involved diana's third daughter would be starting university in a hijab right about now...

[Nick]

has legs for me..definitely something in this..he can't prove where he was that night..and that is a fact.. . then again if he had of been involved diana's third daughter would be starting university in a hijab right about now...

 

 

Which might have been exactly what this country needed to drag it into the 21st century?

[johnny the fox]

Which might have been exactly what this country needed to drag it into the 21st century?

if you cannot see the irony in that statement   re: hijab...well there is no hope..ha ha 

[RobHawk]

Interestingly call from the greens for a "progressive alliance". Makes the idea of leaving Corbyn to destroy the Labour party and setting up a new centre left party all the more enticing. To be honest, i think its desperately needed - The Labour party is dead in the water and i can't see any way of it improving. 

 

Right now, i'd vote either Plaid or Green with no hope of my vote making a difference, or really wanting either of them in power.

[Nick]

if you cannot see the irony in that statement   re: hijab...well there is no hope..ha ha 

 

 

Explain it to me.

[Guest MattP]

Which might have been exactly what this country needed to drag it into the 21st century?

 

I really hope you aren't implying that religious dress is in anyway something we should actually encourage and/or see as the future. A secular society is something all progressive and civilised people should work towards if we are to build bridges, break down barriers and live as one cohesive society.

 

Back to the subject, anyone got any idea why Leicester South MP Jon Ashworth hasn't resigned? He's no ally of Corbyn and all of the ones in the shadow cabinet that have similar views to him have long gone?

[inckley fox]

The argument and the SNP comparison is rock solid only if you're content with Labour representing large numbers of people in big cities and prosperous areas, but not representing people in deindustralised areas who are struggling on low incomes.

 

There's nothing implicitly wrong about that. For decades, the French Socialist Party has largely represented an alliance of unionised public-sector workers in secure employment and middle-class left-wing intellectuals. It used to be the French Communist Party that represented most industrial workers in the private sector etc. Now, as those French industrial areas have gone into decline, as they have in the UK, it is Le Pen's Front National who mainly speak for those in the French working class who have been left behind in poverty.

 

At least, in France, they have different electoral systems that allow the French Socialist Party to get into power sometimes. In the UK, the risk is that Labour will find itself locked out of power - and unable to implement any of Corbyn's policies (many of which I agree with) - for the foreseeable future, because its angry, despairing voters in deindustralised areas have switched to UKIP, handing power to the Tories almost in perpetuity (especially when combined with Scottish independence or SNP dominance in Scotland).

 

I read something the other day saying that Labour are basically juggling three hot potatoes right now - Socialist ideology, the perceived concerns of the working class roots (which aren't necessarily compatible with the Socialist ideology any more) and the 'progressive' politics of the intellectual middle class (which aren't compatible with either). It touched on some of your points here, and seemed to suggest a growing divide between Socialism as a labour movement for the under-represented classes, and Socialism as a progressive political movement which doesn't actually have all that much to do with Socialism at all.

 

As regards socialism itself, it is almost as dirty a word amongst working class Brits these days as it is among Americans. Travelling around Europe (freely, for now) I don't tend to see such hostility towards the word in other countries as back home. Obviously the Press has long since demonised it in the UK, but I don't see the same appetite for a popular socialist uprising as there has been with Podemos in Spain, just because the brand is so badly damaged here.

 

As regards the concerns of the working man, the suggestion is that the battle lines have been redrawn so many times that the Labour Party has simply failed to keep up. When 'Down and Out' was written the clamour among working people was for something which most Tories now take for granted. And, of course, in the 80s it was staggering how many poor people from Labour heartlands followed The Sun's advice and backed Thatcher. Nowadays the principal concern is immigration and integration, and it's hard to see how the sort of sentiment which UKIP exploited can ever be reached out to by a politically progressive party.

 

Blair decided, much like many other Socialist leaders around the world at the time, that Labour had to steal the vote of the intellectual middle class while simultaneously retaining sufficient support from its grassroots. He knew that if Murdoch told the working classes to vote Labour, they'd be unlikely to jump ship. But he ignored the fact that Foot would probably have won but for the Falklands, Benn, the 'Worzel' image and the 1983 manifesto. Some of these were bad luck, some were plain own goals. And since then the Blairites have ignored the fact that a sandwich probably cost Miliband a hung parliament. In other words, the image needed fixing, but the substance wasn't necessarily too far off.

 

So now, inevitably, Labour needs to re-position itself. But it has the genuine question mark - do you reach out for the 33% who turned their backs on Europe in the referendum, who turned to UKIP, and forget the fact that Labour heartlands also turned their backs the last time the party lurched to the left in the 1980s? This seems to be the priority for Corbyn - reconnect with the Socialist ideology first, and now reach out to Labour voters who want to see action taken over immigration by responding to the concerns of this 33%. Alternatively they can be more of a 'progressive' force than a 'Labour' force, and offer an alternative for those who feel alienated as a consequence of Brexit.

 

I'd like to stress that these aren't really my own ideas, but I thought I'd share what I can remember of the piece in light of your arguments.

[Strokes]

I really hope you aren't implying that religious dress is in anyway something we should actually encourage and/or see as the future. A secular society is something all progressive and civilised people should work towards if we are to build bridges, break down barriers and live as one cohesive society.

 

Back to the subject, anyone got any idea why Leicester South MP Jon Ashworth hasn't resigned? He's no ally of Corbyn and all of the ones in the shadow cabinet that have similar views to him have long gone?

Maybe he is not fearing the Chilcott report

[Guest MattP]

Maybe he is not fearing the Chilcott report

 

I'm looking forward to that, hoping to see Peter Mandelson crying into his fish, chips and guacamole.

[Nick]

I really hope you aren't implying that religious dress is in anyway something we should actually encourage and/or see as the future. A secular society is something all progressive and civilised people should work towards if we are to build bridges, break down barriers and live as one cohesive society.

 

 

 

I wouldn't encourage or discourage - its up to the individual what they want to wear for whatever reasons they wish. 

 

Civilised people?

 

Who's uncivilised in this scenario Matt?

[Guest MattP]

I wouldn't encourage or discourage - its up to the individual what they want to wear for whatever reasons they wish. 

 

Civilised people?

 

Who's uncivilised in this scenario Matt?

 

Really? I'd discourage all religious dress, it's just another layer of division in a society that shows the difference between people, of course everything should always have the freedom to wear what they want, but to suggest wearing the hijab is a sign of some sort of progressive ideology is a bit warped imho.

 

I take back civilised though, I should have said forward thinking.

[Nick]

Really? I'd discourage all religious dress, it's just another layer of division in a society that shows the difference between people, of course everything should always have the freedom to wear what they want, but to suggest wearing the hijab is a sign of some sort of progressive ideology is a bit warped imho.

 

I take back civilised though, I should have said forward thinking.

 

 

And how would you 'discourage' people to wear things that relate to their cultural identity?

 

Why does clothing create division or is perhaps attitudes towards difference that's the issue?