Labour party civil war

[Darkon84]

I feel sorry for Corbyn in some ways, for he was not supposed to win (did he even expect to get close when he stood?), but got elected nethertheless (party due to the durth of the other candidates) but hasn't been allowed to then implement even half of what he got elected on.

He's almost being held hostage, between the people who want to hold him to his stated agenda and the PLP who want to pull him miles away from it - and he hasn't even been able to placate things by taking a middle ground in some areas.

And that is therein where the problem in the Labour Party lies - rather than let new leaders lead in a way that is natural to them, there's a pressure to try and mould them into something they're not. Mean look at Ed Milliband now - he doesn't look like half the twat he looked like at times when trying to lead the party and you can see the same is happening with Corbyn, because when he does things on his own (like the Sky News EU debate with young people) he speaks really well, their's a genuine quality about him - even if you don't agree with his stance, it's difficult to completely deride him... it's only when the other clowns are around him that things look like a circus.

 

That's another way of looking at it, the you've got yourself a good point there. He's just kinda milling around in dead space between different factions of the party himself and hanging on, knowing the chopping block is round the corner.

However, he's had the job for coming up to a year now and he really should have pushed himself further and harder than he has, and that goes for pushing Cameron harder than he has too. He's had his chance, not taken it and he struggles with any opinion differing from his own. He seems to have formed some form of cult, rather than an electable opposition party.

[Buce]

This is half the problem though, he only ever seems comfortable, competent and when he's surrounded by groups of people he likes and agrees with.

Can you actually imagine him as Prime Minister? He's have turned into a real life version of Major Major Major Major from Catch 22.

Sat in his shed somewhere only wanting to speak to Students or Trade Unions while the country has urgent business, "Mr Corbyn it's President Putin on the phone he wants to talk about Syria" - "Seamus tell him to go away he's bullying me, Seumas he's threatening to do things to me, tell him we have a huge anti war protest and ask him nicely not to do anything" - "No problem Jeremy, President Trump arrives on Tuesday and he's already complaining about the Vegan Casserole that's on the menu" - "Well tell him to eat first then I don't want to meet him anyway he's racist and America is very nasty to my friends, can you organise me a meeting with some youth groups and International socialists so I don't have to do it"

I did feel for him as well in a way but it's hard for to keep doing now he's hanging on here when all hope is lost and the parties future is at stake, I have the same amount of sympathy for him as I would if Hodgson was hanging on because we couldn't afford to get rid of him.

I know you're a committed carnivore, Matt, but vegan food can be wonderful. I had a meal with an old friend a few months back (he's a Buddhist monk now - long story) and I can honestly say it was the nicest food I've eaten in years.

[Guest MattP]

Maybe I'll find out one day Buce!

Labour news Naz Shah has been re admitted to the Labour party, looks like anti-semitism isn't really much of a problem now.

Makes John McDonnells words look very hollow, just go the whole hog now and get Galloway back.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Maybe I'll find out one day Buce!

Labour news Naz Shah has been re admitted to the Labour party, looks like anti-semitism isn't really much of a problem now.

Makes John McDonnells words look very hollow, just go the whole hog now and get Galloway back.

Your being harsh, her offence and subsequent actions didn't merit expulsion.

[Dr The Singh]

Maybe I'll find out one day Buce!

Labour news Naz Shah has been re admitted to the Labour party, looks like anti-semitism isn't really much of a problem now.

Makes John McDonnells words look very hollow, just go the whole hog now and get Galloway back.

Labour are more embarrassing by the day. What next Rincewind becomes a Labour front bencher

[Webbo]

Labour are more embarrassing by the day. What next Rincewind becomes a Labour front bencher

The way things are going he wouldn't even need to be an MP.

[Dr The Singh]

The way things are going he wouldn't even need to be an MP.

Wtf Corbyn and Shah are voted MP's, what's the world coming to

What about Dianne Abbot, which part of the country are stupid enough to vote for that trash!!!

[SheppyFox]

Enjoying watching the mess unfold

[Webbo]

Defeated Labour rebels admit 'it's finished' as Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign as leader

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/defeated-labour-rebels-admit-its-finished-as-jeremy-corbyn-refus/

[Alf Bentley]

Defeated Labour rebels admit 'it's finished' as Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign as leader

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/defeated-labour-rebels-admit-its-finished-as-jeremy-corbyn-refus/

 

 

 

That headline is a bit misleading. The MPs seem close to giving up on Corbyn going voluntarily, but not on getting rid of him.

The assumption now seems to be that someone (Eagle?) will stand against him....though whether they'd win is far from clear.

 

It's really all getting very bizarre. Since the referendum, apparently 100,000 new members have joined Labour. 

Who are these people? If they're mainly idealistic young Corbynistas, then presumably he wins any contest - and the MPs have to either accept it or engineer some sort of split in the party.

 

Some new members will be people wanting Corbyn out, but surely not that many? But the New Statesman raises an alternative theory that many could be pro-EU voters dismayed at the Brexit vote....after all, about 15,000 new members have joined the Lib Dems in the past fortnight, taking membership to a 10-year high.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/07/labour-membership-surges-100000-what-does-it-mean

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liberal-democrats-gain-15000-new-members-after-brexit-a7123801.html

 

This is all a bit weird, a bit like the hysteria after Princess Diana died. Politics at the moment seriously needs to get sane again!

[Guest]

I think rather than get sane again it needs to blow up, explode, and start afresh.

[Alf Bentley]

I think rather than get sane again it needs to blow up, explode, and start afresh.

 

 

Maybe, but our electoral system is a massive disincentive to that.

 

If Labour and Tories came to an agreement that they'd both split up, then it might work, but that's obviously not going to happen.

 

Despite all their divisions, it looks as if the Tories will stick together. If Labour split in that context and both wings survived, they'd be guaranteeing the Tories a large majority for the foreseeable future, even on 35% of the vote or less.

 

I suppose there could be a scenario where Labour split but did some deal between the 2 wings (and maybe the Lib Dems) not to stand against one another in marginal seats....but, again, I can't see that happening, particularly with all the hostility and rivalry that a split would generate. The Tories are in more chaos than they have been for a generation, yet Labour has managed to outdo them by staging an existential crisis that could destroy the party and hand power to the Tories for the foreseeable future, all this in the context of the Brexit convulsions.

[The Horse's Mouth]

If it has come to the point where you're attempting to overthrow the vast majority of your members then you basically need to split from the party surely?

[Alf Bentley]

If it has come to the point where you're attempting to overthrow the vast majority of your members then you basically need to split from the party surely?

 

 

If the MPs stand a candidate against Corbyn and he wins convincingly, they'd certainly face that dilemma.

 

It will create an impossible situation if he doesn't resign and they don't stand someone against him, having voted overwhelmingly that they have no confidence in him.

I don't think the MPs can go into the next election with Corbyn as leader. The Tories would be able to point out that they have no confidence in their leader, which would surely be fatal to their chances?

 

So, I don't think a compromise deal is workable. Either Corbyn has to go (voluntarily or voted out) or the current MPs have to go, probably via a split (but on what terms, God knows)..

[Guest MattP]

If it has come to the point where you're attempting to overthrow the vast majority of your members then you basically need to split from the party surely?

 

I wouldn't say vast majority, the support according to yougiv polls had Corbyn with around 50% support, a vote would have been close and might still be.

 

There certainly needs to be a split though, they are in a far better position to do so as well, this isn't a "gang of four" situation, they have over 170 MP's who face either doing that or being deselected anyway - an immediate split and they could become the official opposition and relegate Labour to being the fourth party in British politics.

[Webbo]

If the MPs split from the party some activists would go with them but the party machine, constituencies and union funding would stay with the official party. They're between a rock and a hard place.

[Guest MattP]

If the MPs split from the party some activists would go with them but the party machine, constituencies and union funding would stay with the official party. They're between a rock and a hard place.

 

Money is draining away from the Labour party though, the funding is drying up under Corbyn (no surprise given a lot of it is Jewish money) and laws regarding union funding are being changed anyway.

[Alf Bentley]

Corbyn has an article in the Guardian today: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/08/jeremy-corbyn-labour-negotiations-europe-tories-exploit-cheap-labour

 

I agree with this:

"To bring the country back together, we have to understand what lay behind the narrow majority to leave. Part of it was clearly about the impact of immigration on a deregulated jobs market and investment-starved housing and public services. But leave voters were also concentrated in former industrial areas hit hardest by low pay, job insecurity and economic stagnation. In fact, Labour-supporting cities that voted remain, such as London, Bristol and Manchester, have far higher migrant populations than many that backed leave. The difference is that the latter are areas that have benefited least from a lopsided economic recovery. This was a vote by the people of left-behind Britain against a political establishment that has failed them".

 

This bit would have been valid comment IF Corbyn had campaigned properly during the referendum and IF there had been a narrow Remain vote. Unfortunately, neither of those things happened:

"During the referendum campaign, we argued for an end to EU-enforced liberalisation and privatisation of public services – and for freedom for public enterprise and public investment, now restricted by EU treaties. Those freedoms need to be part of the coming negotiations. Labour also campaigned for tougher regulation of the jobs market and of the exploitation of migrant labour to undercut pay and conditions, as the best way to protect jobs and living standards in the EU".

 

After the shock of Brexit, the EU27 may now do as he suggests - loosen the strict budgetary discipline under EMU/Eurozone (no more than 2.5% deficit etc.) and allow more public investment. It might also place restrictions on free movement, though "regulation of the jobs market" and "exploitation of migrant labour" are issues that could and should have been dealt with at a national level. Maybe the UK will still benefit from that, if we join EFTA/EEA and stay in the single market (the "Norway option"). But we'd have been a lot surer of benefiting if Corbyn & his mates had campaigned properly and not allowed the referendum to become a poorly-informed debate dominated by Cameron, Boris & Farage (who are ALL now leaving the scene - unbelievably), leaving us out of the debate about the future of the EU.

[Thracian]

Corbyn has an article in the Guardian today: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/08/jeremy-corbyn-labour-negotiations-europe-tories-exploit-cheap-labour

 

I agree with this:

"To bring the country back together, we have to understand what lay behind the narrow majority to leave. Part of it was clearly about the impact of immigration on a deregulated jobs market and investment-starved housing and public services. But leave voters were also concentrated in former industrial areas hit hardest by low pay, job insecurity and economic stagnation. In fact, Labour-supporting cities that voted remain, such as London, Bristol and Manchester, have far higher migrant populations than many that backed leave. The difference is that the latter are areas that have benefited least from a lopsided economic recovery. This was a vote by the people of left-behind Britain against a political establishment that has failed them".

 

This bit would have been valid comment IF Corbyn had campaigned properly during the referendum and IF there had been a narrow Remain vote. Unfortunately, neither of those things happened:

"During the referendum campaign, we argued for an end to EU-enforced liberalisation and privatisation of public services – and for freedom for public enterprise and public investment, now restricted by EU treaties. Those freedoms need to be part of the coming negotiations. Labour also campaigned for tougher regulation of the jobs market and of the exploitation of migrant labour to undercut pay and conditions, as the best way to protect jobs and living standards in the EU".

 

After the shock of Brexit, the EU27 may now do as he suggests - loosen the strict budgetary discipline under EMU/Eurozone (no more than 2.5% deficit etc.) and allow more public investment. It might also place restrictions on free movement, though "regulation of the jobs market" and "exploitation of migrant labour" are issues that could and should have been dealt with at a national level. Maybe the UK will still benefit from that, if we join EFTA/EEA and stay in the single market (the "Norway option"). But we'd have been a lot surer of benefiting if Corbyn & his mates had campaigned properly and not allowed the referendum to become a poorly-informed debate dominated by Cameron, Boris & Farage (who are ALL now leaving the scene - unbelievably), leaving us out of the debate about the future of the EU.

 

 

I love his reference to "Left-behind Britain" and have referred many times to native white Brits being systematically downgraded into second class citizens. It was a cynical Labour process from Blair onwards.     

[Nick]

I love his reference to "Left-behind Britain" and have referred many times to native white Brits being systematically downgraded into second class citizens. It was a cynical Labour process from Blair onwards.

Who are native white Brits?

[Rincewind]

Well Blair was practically Tory so the Tories carried on where New Labour left off. 

[leicsmac]

Who are native white Brits?

 

Good question. Racial essentialism is such a murky topic.

[Thracian]

Well Blair was practically Tory so the Tories carried on where New Labour left off. 

 

 

 

Distancing him now doesn't help! 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I love his reference to "Left-behind Britain" and have referred many times to native white Brits being systematically downgraded into second class citizens. It was a cynical Labour process from Blair onwards.

This post does feel a little far.... right I'm needed over there!

[Nick]

This post does feel a little far.... right I'm needed over there!

At some point you just have to say what you see. Because this question of 'What's Mr. Chips doing' dressed in a different bad graphic costume every week is actually now pretty overtly offensive.