Truck Drives Through Crowd in Nice, France

[Alf Bentley]

The authorities are reeping what they have sowed, I'm surprised we've not had more given we allowed people like Abu Qatata and Abu Hamza to preach on the corners of Hyde Park for years about the need to kill infidels, of course some angry young men are going to be turned to these sort of people if they offer them something, how we allowed this to actually happen still baffles me? We throw the EDL leader in prison for a "fcuk ISIS" flag while Anjem Choudary gets to go on the Big Questions on the BBC and talk about the need for Jihad and then we wonder why people get radicalised?

 

 

 

I'm not commenting for or against that post.That's the old dilemma of free speech v. incitement to hatred/violence.

 

However, previous attackers have often had little connection with mosques or radical preachers - and I very much doubt that France allows such people TV exposure (traditionally the French have been critical of our "laxity" in dealing with such radicals). We'll doubtless hear about this bloke's background in due course, but he doesn't sound very religious at first sight (petty criminal).

 

At least some, possibly many of these people seem to get involved via exposure to radical web sites and/or as an extension of involvement in petty crime.....that's probably harder to tackle than radical preachers. There'll always be the odd ideological extremist, whatever their cultural/religious/nationalist/racial cause, but how do you deal with the flow of "angry young men with nothing to lose" (quoting Bovril)? Ensure that they DO have something to lose - some prospects, some sense of their own value, some stake in society? I'm well aware that's easier said than done - and that some will see me as a laughable wet liberal for even saying such a thing....

[Thracian]

Will it ever end.

 

 

Only when people and the authorities understand the seriousness of previous errors and start showing the determination necessary to put them right.

 

Even then it will be hard because the problems have been recklessly compounded year on year.

 

And doubtless many more will die while Western leaders, here and in the wider EU,  ponder the problems of first admitting they were wrong.  

[Thracian]

Angry young men with nothing to lose. Plenty of them littered throughout history.

 

 

 

It's deeper and more complex than that. The essence of terrorism is the unexpected. And we've not seen the worst yet by any means. 

[Thracian]

I believe the Paris shooters had a similar background.

 

 

 

Petty crime points to vulnerability. Terrorists identify the vulnerable put them under pressure in terms of satisfying needs, fears, vulnerabilities and then use/abuse them when the victim feels he or she has no other choice.

[leicsmac]

There's no point being either, Best thing you can do is to not change anything.That's what they want.

Precisely. It has to be said over and over every time something terrible like this happens, but it remains true.

[Buce]

How many times will this happen before words like 'internment' and 'repatriation' become acceptable?

[filbertfoxy00]

Why are the media not showing the bodies of the poor dead children? They didn't hang about showing that Muslim child who was washed up on a beach!

It needs showing, people need shocking instead of just hearing the news and thinking oh it's another terrorist attack.

Show people the full barbaric horror and then maybe then the enormity of what is happening on our doorstep will hit home.

[Guest MattP]

At least some, possibly many of these people seem to get involved via exposure to radical web sites and/or as an extension of involvement in petty crime.....that's probably harder to tackle than radical preachers. There'll always be the odd ideological extremist, whatever their cultural/religious/nationalist/racial cause, but how do you deal with the flow of "angry young men with nothing to lose" (quoting Bovril)? Ensure that they DO have something to lose - some prospects, some sense of their own value, some stake in society? I'm well aware that's easier said than done - and that some will see me as a laughable wet liberal for even saying such a thing....

 

It certainly something to aspire too, but it's completely impossible to build a society that everyone has a stake in as we fundamentally will believe in different things, although I'm still a huge believer a lot of this is going on in the prisons, a place full of angry young men with nothing to lose, the perfect breeding ground for it. But of course sadly when a prisoner or warden claims Militant Islamism is rampant in these buildings instead of discussing it we generally just label them racist, as happened on here when the Leicester Prison story was discussed.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prisons-jihadi-jails-keep-terrorists-8416508- This maybe a good idea though, a seperate section where these people can no longer spread the poison to others.

 

It isn't always people left behind that believe in these ideologies though, most British jihadis who have gone to fight with ISIS are university educated or beyond - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-documents-leak-reveals-profile-of-average-militant-as-young-well-educated-but-with-only-basic-a6995111.html

[Webbo]

How many times will this happen before words like 'internment' and 'repatriation' become acceptable?

You can't lock people up for what they might do, you can't repatriate someone from the country they were born in.

[Buce]

You can't lock people up for what they might do, you can't repatriate someone from the country they were born in.

I'm not suggestig it as an option, but these words have been used by the far right. Imo, there will come a time where they will be spoken more widely.

[Webbo]

I'm not suggestig it as an option, but these words have been used by the far right. Imo, there will come a time where they will be spoken more widely.

Well I've not heard that, but nobody who's ever likely to be in power in this country is ever likely to go down that road.

[Finnaldo]

Well I've not heard that, but nobody who's ever likely to be in power in this country is ever likely to go down that road.

 

To be fair Webbo you very rarely know you're going down that road until it springs up on you. Gradual steps to set the foundation before a couple of events like these happen and you can just flip the switch.

 

Not saying it's going to happen but if it did I doubt we'd know too much about it until it was upon us, otherwise I doubt it would of happened so much historically...  

[Thracian]

Why are the media not showing the bodies of the poor dead children? They didn't hang about showing that Muslim child who was washed up on a beach!

It needs showing, people need shocking instead of just hearing the news and thinking oh it's another terrorist attack.

Show people the full barbaric horror and then maybe then the enormity of what is happening on our doorstep will hit home.

 

 

Community harmony responsibilities and control from above. It's long been apparent. Good taste aspects too.  

[filbertfoxy00]

So why didn't "good taste" apply when the media had those pics of the dead Muslim child plastered all over it?

[leicsmac]

To be fair Webbo you very rarely know you're going down that road until it springs up on you. Gradual steps to set the foundation before a couple of events like these happen and you can just flip the switch.

Not saying it's going to happen but if it did I doubt we'd know too much about it until it was upon us, otherwise I doubt it would of happened so much historically...

Right. Such things never spring up out of nowhere, you have a public that gets more and more afraid of the "other" until one day they're agreeing to such measures for their own protection.

Numerous examples throughout history.

[lgfualol]

I was thinking the same, how long would it take us to scramble armed police as well to a village fete or a local music festival? It would be a massacre.

 

 

The authorities are reeping what they have sowed, I'm surprised we've not had more given we allowed people like Abu Qatata and Abu Hamza to preach on the corners of Hyde Park for years about the need to kill infidels, of course some angry young men are going to be turned to these sort of people if they offer them something, how we allowed this to actually happen still baffles me? We throw the EDL leader in prison for a "fcuk ISIS" flag while Anjem Choudary gets to go on the Big Questions on the BBC and talk about the need for Jihad and then we wonder why people get radicalised?

 

To say we need a different appraoch is an understatement.

 

France have been no better, it's taken them years to deport similar sorts, lord only knows how many people they got to in that time. Where is Theresa May as well? Not heard from her yet which is quite disgraceful really.

 

We're all weeping what we sow, buying oil from our chums Saudi Arabia and turning a blind eye while they fund wahhabism around the world. 

[Webbo]

We're all weeping what we sow, buying oil from our chums Saudi Arabia and turning a blind eye while they fund wahhabism around the world. 

Try running your car on good intentions.

[bovril]

There have been plenty of angry young men in history who have killed for a cause.

 

Being so angry that you kill as many civilians as possible (including Muslims, by all accounts) is a step beyond that. Likewise, having so little to lose that you are prepared to actively seek death in pursuing such mass murder.

 

I think we need to work out what combination of factors is giving people this mentality - a hideous transformation of the traditional "angry young man". Otherwise, security can only do so much, if there's an endless flow of new recruits. 

 

You're right. It's nihilistic. But we live in such a nihilistic, individualistic world, maybe these 'lone wolf' attacks are an extreme expression of that.

[leicsmac]

Try running your car on good intentions.

And yet successive governments skew even less than zero interest in trying to pursue alternative everyday power source research in any meaningful fashion.

Yes, there is heavy reliance on middle East oil and gas, but it's like TPTB don't want that to change and they're comfortable with the status quo.

[ramboacdc]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prisons-jihadi-jails-keep-terrorists-8416508- This maybe a good idea though, a seperate section where these people can no longer spread the poison to others.

 

would have to be done in the right way however or it could infringe human rights. 

[Webbo]

And yet successive governments skew even less than zero interest in trying to pursue alternative everyday power source research in any meaningful fashion.

Yes, there is heavy reliance on middle East oil and gas, but it's like TPTB don't want that to change and they're comfortable with the status quo.

Walk down any street and you'll see solar panels on roofs, you can't drive more than 5 miles with out seeing a windmill, all subsidised by the state through our energy bills. For less than zero interest, we're not doing bad.

[leicsmac]

Walk down any street and you'll see solar panels on roofs, you can't drive more than 5 miles with out seeing a windmill, all subsidised by the state through our energy bills. For less than zero interest, we're not doing bad.

And yet the majority of our power needs are still met by oil and gas burning stations, and the idea of a vehicle that runs entirely on anything not hydrocarbon with the same reliability, power and range as one is still a pipe dream.

Perhaps I'm being harsh or expecting too much too fast, but I see that as failure caused by lack of will rather than lack of ability or time. Change is coming way too slowly, and I think this is deliberate.

[Manwell Pablo]

Apparently not that religious according to sources? Didn't even take part in Ramadam.

 

So just a total whack job if that's the case.

 

EDIT: Described as being "not that religios" and didn't "fully" practice Ramadam this year.

[Finnaldo]

Apparently not that religious according to sources? Didn't even take part in Ramadam.

 

So just a total whack job if that's the case.

 

It's always the case. 

 

One of the Paris November suspect were quite acquainted with local gay bars, the Orlando shooter was exactly the same.

 

These people feel isolated from society, have obvious anger and/or mental issues so grab whatever they can cause destruction with and let lose against what they feel has become their enemy: society.

 

Really no different to half the US shootings we see, except they have a background they can use as extra 'justification' for their actions. 

[Manwell Pablo]

It's always the case. 

 

One of the Paris November suspect were quite acquainted with local gay bars, the Orlando shooter was exactly the same.

 

These people feel isolated from society, have obvious anger and/or mental issues so grab whatever they can cause destruction with and let lose against what they feel has become their enemy: society.

 

Really no different to half the US shootings we see, except they have a background they can use as extra 'justification' for their actions. 

 

I was getting at he might have zero links to ISIS at all, have ISIS even claimed any reponsibility?