President Trump & the USA

[Carl the Llama]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/07/emmanuel-macron-jostles-way-front-g20-photo-stand-donald-trump/

Nobody's responded to this so I may as well:

First of all that's completely different to the way Trump shoved his way through, the dude even stops to give a kiss at one point.  Second of all I believe he's actually being pretty sneaky and undermining Trump's habit of standing apart to one side in group photos, add in the handshake and fake out from a few weeks back and it seems like Macron has a bit of a penchant for subtly messing with the Donald.

[Darkon84]

43 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Exactly.

 

So the point I'm making is that Trump was daft to say what he said - something Matt seemed to want to shift the blame for, unless I'm mistaken on that and if I am I apologise.

Sorry mate, you'll have to excuse my ignorance. I came in to the debate later on than that when it had morphed in to something else so I don't actually know what Trump's tweet said (assuming its a tweet). My posts were mainly reactionary to what other people had said regarding other things or the progression of the debate (argument), rather than the original thing Trump said. I'd gladly give you my thoughts, as always, if you've got it to post up again or something? ( I won't lie, I can't be arsed to search for it, as I'm enjoying the wine too much  ). 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

Sorry mate, you'll have to excuse my ignorance. I came in to the debate later on than that when it had morphed in to something else so I don't actually know what Trump's tweet said (assuming its a tweet). My posts were mainly reactionary to what other people had said regarding other things or the progression of the debate (argument), rather than the original thing Trump said. I'd gladly give you my thoughts, as always, if you've got it to post up again or something? ( I won't lie, I can't be arsed to search for it, as I'm enjoying the wine too much  ). 

 

 

On 7/6/2017 at 05:35, Innovindil said:

Wait are we blaming trump for NK constantly testing missiles? 

 

 

On 7/6/2017 at 07:37, MattP said:

Yep,  somehow

 

I think we've got the point now, if Trump flew into the middle east and created peace in the Israel/Palestine conflict the first reaction would be from some to cry about the plane he flew in on.

 

It's all a bit boring now. 

Sorry, innovindil started the whole misdirection and Matt seemed to agree with it.

 

I then pointed out that the US response -  both Trump and otherwise - meant far more for world events than anything NK does and gave my reasons why.

[Darkon84]

17 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

Sorry, innovindil started the whole misdirection and Matt seemed to agree with it.

 

I then pointed out that the US response -  both Trump and otherwise - meant far more for world events than anything NK does and gave my reasons why.

Ah right, well from the brief bits I've gathered thus far, Trump has taken some flack in general for saying that China etc need to step their game up. They do. The big players and especially NK's neighbours need to put the noisy kid back in the corner again, and whilst it may not seem it at the moment, I do still think that before things get TOO rough, China, Russia etc will have a word and but NK back in it's place, which we both agree on. Again, with my ignorance tonight....what is the US response? Calling for China etc to help? Direct threats to NK?

 

Scratch that, I've gone back to re-read how it started again. It looks like Buce posted the BBC article regarding Trump's speech in Poland and commented about starting war. Now, anyone who has ever seen an American President knows you get backing, by warring. I don't like it, and it shouldn't be like that but money talks and so do voters and voters love a way. I then have to disagree with Nicks post about ineptitude about Russia and China helping out. They should ramp up their talks with NK, and it's in their interests to do so. Besides, they already know this, and Trump by saying that is just bravado to make America look like they're dictating things. Any other president would do the same I think. 

Inno's post was slightly wide of the mark, but it didn't seem to be 100% literal. The point still stood. People didn't seem to be annoyed at the fact that NK were progressing and pushing on with dangerous weapons that could threaten numerous countries. No, they were mad that Trump said something  Have I described that right, from an attempted neutral-ish view? (Not saying you're being hugely biased or anything btw). Does that make sense at all? I'm not sure if I'm putting things down on paper as well as it seems in my head (damn wine)   

 

EDIT: I've re-read your response to the earlier posts and yea, NK probably know they would get battered by everyone. It's just grandstanding. Though it's very VERY close to going too far now, and i do think words need to be had. They've had their fun and flexed their muscles, but enough is enough. They can do their own thing, fine, but theres only so many times you can take the pi$$ and try someoes patience. 

Edited 7 July 2017 by Darkon84

[Buce]

6 hours ago, Darkon84 said:

Ah right, well from the brief bits I've gathered thus far, Trump has taken some flack in general for saying that China etc need to step their game up. They do. The big players and especially NK's neighbours need to put the noisy kid back in the corner again, and whilst it may not seem it at the moment, I do still think that before things get TOO rough, China, Russia etc will have a word and but NK back in it's place, which we both agree on. Again, with my ignorance tonight....what is the US response? Calling for China etc to help? Direct threats to NK?

 

Scratch that, I've gone back to re-read how it started again. It looks like Buce posted the BBC article regarding Trump's speech in Poland and commented about starting war. Now, anyone who has ever seen an American President knows you get backing, by warring. I don't like it, and it shouldn't be like that but money talks and so do voters and voters love a way. I then have to disagree with Nicks post about ineptitude about Russia and China helping out. They should ramp up their talks with NK, and it's in their interests to do so. Besides, they already know this, and Trump by saying that is just bravado to make America look like they're dictating things. Any other president would do the same I think. 

Inno's post was slightly wide of the mark, but it didn't seem to be 100% literal. The point still stood. People didn't seem to be annoyed at the fact that NK were progressing and pushing on with dangerous weapons that could threaten numerous countries. No, they were mad that Trump said something  Have I described that right, from an attempted neutral-ish view? (Not saying you're being hugely biased or anything btw). Does that make sense at all? I'm not sure if I'm putting things down on paper as well as it seems in my head (damn wine)   

 

EDIT: I've re-read your response to the earlier posts and yea, NK probably know they would get battered by everyone. It's just grandstanding. Though it's very VERY close to going too far now, and i do think words need to be had. They've had their fun and flexed their muscles, but enough is enough. They can do their own thing, fine, but theres only so many times you can take the pi$$ and try someoes patience. 

 

So, in a nutshell, it's all my fault.

[Guest MattP]

8 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Nobody's responded to this so I may as well:

First of all that's completely different to the way Trump shoved his way through, the dude even stops to give a kiss at one point.  Second of all I believe he's actually being pretty sneaky and undermining Trump's habit of standing apart to one side in group photos, add in the handshake and fake out from a few weeks back and it seems like Macron has a bit of a penchant for subtly messing with the Donald.

Yeah it's slightly different.

 

Fact is had Trump done what Macron did it would be on the front page of the Guardian etc alongside a piece insinuating to us all what a bully he is.

 

9 hours ago, Darkon84 said:

I appreciate that buce, but as above, I'm not in favour of it. I certainly would not have gone down that route  

It worked though making the point I wanted to make.

 

Obama did shoot hoops in front of the press, he did dance around in the Whitehouse in front of cameras to continue to give impression of his cool persona that often distracted from some of the quote horrific things he did, things far worse than what the Donald has done.

[Nick]

8 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Nobody's responded to this so I may as well:

First of all that's completely different to the way Trump shoved his way through, the dude even stops to give a kiss at one point.  Second of all I believe he's actually being pretty sneaky and undermining Trump's habit of standing apart to one side in group photos, add in the handshake and fake out from a few weeks back and it seems like Macron has a bit of a penchant for subtly messing with the Donald.

There's also the added possibility that he is meant to stand there at the front on the end as he is short and balances the picture! 

 

Jostles! What a load of crap.

[leicsmac]

13 hours ago, Darkon84 said:

Ah right, well from the brief bits I've gathered thus far, Trump has taken some flack in general for saying that China etc need to step their game up. They do. The big players and especially NK's neighbours need to put the noisy kid back in the corner again, and whilst it may not seem it at the moment, I do still think that before things get TOO rough, China, Russia etc will have a word and but NK back in it's place, which we both agree on. Again, with my ignorance tonight....what is the US response? Calling for China etc to help? Direct threats to NK?

 

Scratch that, I've gone back to re-read how it started again. It looks like Buce posted the BBC article regarding Trump's speech in Poland and commented about starting war. Now, anyone who has ever seen an American President knows you get backing, by warring. I don't like it, and it shouldn't be like that but money talks and so do voters and voters love a way. I then have to disagree with Nicks post about ineptitude about Russia and China helping out. They should ramp up their talks with NK, and it's in their interests to do so. Besides, they already know this, and Trump by saying that is just bravado to make America look like they're dictating things. Any other president would do the same I think. 

Inno's post was slightly wide of the mark, but it didn't seem to be 100% literal. The point still stood. People didn't seem to be annoyed at the fact that NK were progressing and pushing on with dangerous weapons that could threaten numerous countries. No, they were mad that Trump said something  Have I described that right, from an attempted neutral-ish view? (Not saying you're being hugely biased or anything btw). Does that make sense at all? I'm not sure if I'm putting things down on paper as well as it seems in my head (damn wine)   

 

EDIT: I've re-read your response to the earlier posts and yea, NK probably know they would get battered by everyone. It's just grandstanding. Though it's very VERY close to going too far now, and i do think words need to be had. They've had their fun and flexed their muscles, but enough is enough. They can do their own thing, fine, but theres only so many times you can take the pi$$ and try someoes patience. 

Right. A good war always gets the approval ratings up, but isn't that fvcking disgusting? You're right in that it shouldn't be like that and (more importantly) it doesn't have to be like that. That kind of attitude isn't fixed and immutable - or if it is there's a lot of trouble ahead. 

 

Russia and China are probably talking to NK on the quiet about what is going on here, and that's fair enough - that is what should be happening, not idiotic jingoistic bluster released to the press - and any other president would know that, too. Let the NK's play that game.

 

Anyone with any kind of sense or stake in the region knows that NK are never going to start anything, lest they get curb-stomped, so why would they get annoyed at whatever they are doing? The only way something starts in that region is if the US elicit to intervene, or (maybe) the NK's are so sure that such an intervention is imminent that they feel they have to do something. Ratcheting up the language in this way is daft and destabilising.

 

IMO the NK's can say what they want - they know they always and forever lose a war with the SK's and US, so all it is is words. They're the little mouthy kid in the classroom who keeps mouthing off to the bigger ones who will always be bigger than him. He knows that he'll never win a fight with one of them, but he keeps liking mouthing off anyway, and possibly gets a little stronger and tougher (but, again, and this is the important point: never as strong as to even vaguely threaten the other kids) so that he might give a little injury to the bigger ones if there was a fight...but he'll always get beaten into the ground in response if he tries.

 

What's the sensible, mature response to him? Leave him alone and let him mouth off, he's harmless. Don't waste time with him.

 

5 hours ago, MattP said:

Yeah it's slightly different.

 

Fact is had Trump done what Macron did it would be on the front page of the Guardian etc alongside a piece insinuating to us all what a bully he is.

 

It worked though making the point I wanted to make.

 

Obama did shoot hoops in front of the press, he did dance around in the Whitehouse in front of cameras to continue to give impression of his cool persona that often distracted from some of the quote horrific things he did, things far worse than what the Donald has done.

3

I can remember the Yemen thing (as well as other interventions, but then I'm not sure why Repubs would disagree with a good shooting/bombing match anyway), but what else did you think was horriffic? Economically he spent a large portion of his tenure trying to sort out the money from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, which did have an effect on the landscape.

Edited 8 July 2017 by leicsmac

[leicsmac]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40540359

 

G20 to the US: "Well, you can keep going with using vast amounts of air, sea and land pollutants and not look for better options because we can't really stop you."

 

[Carl the Llama]

6 hours ago, MattP said:

Yeah it's slightly different.

 

Fact is had Trump done what Macron did it would be on the front page of the Guardian etc alongside a piece insinuating to us all what a bully he is.

Oh come on you're just doubling down for the sake of it now.  If anything had Trump interacted civilly with the people he was trying to get past like Macron did then it would have been blown out of proportion in the media as a demonstration that he's learning presidential behaviour like when he miraculously gave that state of the union speech without going off on a rant a month or two into his incumbency.

 

Also, at the risk of being accused of being a filthy, Marxist Corbynista is the Guardian now the far right's go-to scapegoat in the UK?  It looks a lot like you're all a bit desperate for a news outlet to malign so you can be like the alt-right Americans with their CNN and MSNBC (or the UK centrists/leftists/right wingers with common sense with their Daily Mail/Sun/Mirror etc.)...

[Vacamion]

 

If any of you haven't seen this, it's worth a watch. 

 

You can always rely on the Aussies to tell it like it is, although when you reflect on what is being said, it's incredibly depressing.

 

 

 

 

[Nick]

1 hour ago, Vacamion said:

 

If any of you haven't seen this, it's worth a watch. 

 

You can always rely on the Aussies to tell it like it is, although when you reflect on what is being said, it's incredibly depressing.

 

 

 

 

Spot on.

[Guest MattP]

19 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Oh come on you're just doubling down for the sake of it now.  If anything had Trump interacted civilly with the people he was trying to get past like Macron did then it would have been blown out of proportion in the media as a demonstration that he's learning presidential behaviour like when he miraculously gave that state of the union speech without going off on a rant a month or two into his incumbency.

 

Also, at the risk of being accused of being a filthy, Marxist Corbynista is the Guardian now the far right's go-to scapegoat in the UK?  It looks a lot like you're all a bit desperate for a news outlet to malign so you can be like the alt-right Americans with their CNN and MSNBC (or the UK centrists/leftists/right wingers with common sense with their Daily Mail/Sun/Mirror etc.)...

The Guardian has always been a bit of a joke though hasn't it? 

 

Even the Labour voting lefties I hang around with take the piss out of it, it's dying a slow death anyway now looking at its circulation. 

[Guest MattP]

It's long been the acceptable face of the "don't talk about that, you're racist" crowd.

 

There have been 50 articles like this one over the years, which is quite horrific given what actually happened.

[Nick]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

The Guardian has always been a bit of a joke though hasn't it? 

 

Even the Labour voting lefties I hang around with take the piss out of it, it's dying a slow death anyway now looking at its circulation. 

Yawn.

[Guest MattP]

Here's the article - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jan/07/grooming-racialising-crime-tradition

 

I do force myself to read these just to try and get inside the head of the author, to try and understand how they have managed to become so deluded and the only conclusion I can come to is they are totally sheltered from it.

[Nick]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

It's long been the acceptable face of the "don't talk about that, you're racist" crowd.

 

There have been 50 articles like this one over the years, which is quite horrific given what actually happened.

And we are steered back here again on race politics... we've done this over and over.

 

Are you Thracian in disguise?

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, MattP said:

The Guardian has always been a bit of a joke though hasn't it? 

 

Even the Labour voting lefties I hang around with take the piss out of it, it's dying a slow death anyway now looking at its circulation. 

I agree it's quite clearly biased if that's what you mean. I think I've already mentioned that I don't personally choose to read the paper so that should tell you where I stand on it but it's a bit disingenuous to say it's equivalent to the Mail.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Swan Lesta said:

And we are steered back here again on race politics... we've done this over and over.

 

Are you Thracian in disguise?

 

Yet again the response if effectively - "you're racist" - not interested anymore, putting you on ignore so I don't have to deal with this guff.

[Lionator]

Sounds like they all turned on old Donnie in Hamburg, led by Macron. His lack of leadership, twitter rants and empty cocktail of emptiness and nothingness is going to make him the worst president in history.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

I agree it's quite clearly biased if that's what you mean. I think I've already mentioned that I don't personally choose to read the paper so that should tell you where I stand on it but it's a bit disingenuous to say it's equivalent to the Mail.

I don't think it's THAT disingenuous, it's certainly better written than the Mail but the bias and hyperbole is often the same, just from the other side.

 

I agree with the guy who said the Guardian is basically a tabloid for the middle classes disguised as a broadsheet. 

[Buce]

Just now, Lionator said:

Sounds like they all turned on old Donnie in Hamburg, led by Macron. His lack of leadership, twitter rants and empty cocktail of emptiness and nothingness is going to make him the worst president in history.

 

Unfortunately, that also makes him the most dangerous President in history.

[Nick]

Just now, MattP said:

 

Yet again the response if effectively - "you're racist" - not interested anymore, putting you on ignore so I don't have to deal with this guff.

You do that  

 

Wake up on a Sunday, find an article from 2011 about Muslim paedophiles and start typing away bashing at the Guardian and your other favourite subject.

 

I've spent years working with paedophiles and victims of abuse and studying serious case reviews so why would I know anything? 

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Sounds like they all turned on old Donnie in Hamburg, led by Macron. His lack of leadership, twitter rants and empty cocktail of emptiness and nothingness is going to make him the worst president in history.

The whole is actually a little bit scary when I look at the picture this morning. 

 

A picture of them all together and you realise the problems we face.

 

With Putin, Kim, Erdogan etc we have probably the most critical stage of world politics in years, in terms of foreign policy it's the most important era ever and we have a man in the Whitehouse, a women in Downing Street and a man in the Elysees palace in Trump, May and Macron who all know very little about foreign policy and have never worked in it.

[Nick]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

The whole is actually a little bit scary when I look at the picture this morning. 

 

A picture of them all together and you realise the problems we face.

 

With Putin, Kim, Erdogan etc we have probably the most critical stage of world politics in years, in terms of foreign policy it's the most important era ever and we have a man in the Whitehouse, a women in Downing Street and a man in the Elysees palace in Trump, May and Macron who all know very little about foreign policy and have never worked in it.

Wow - a decent post.

 

Not sure about the Man Woman part relevance but I agree about the lack of experience entirely.