Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Spudulike]

Great article in today's Times by Roger Boyes ... "This is not a divorce. We were never in a marriage: no passion, no offspring. It was more like a flat share where we squabbled about the bills, about pilfering from the fridge and about the uninvited guests sleeping on the sofa" ...

[Thracian]

2 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Don't think I mentioned either of those specific examples, but never mind. If you can't see why people still feel pretty nervous about what deal we're actually going to get out of it, and whether it was all worth it, then I feel bad for you.

 

I suppose it'll all be worth it as long as we get state-sanctioned killing, different coloured passports, legalised child assault and strawb'ries-by-the-pound back though...

 

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/leave-voters-support-reintroduction-of-death-penalty-caning-and-traditional-incandescent-light-bulbs/

As ever with these so-called surveys, no-one has asked me. So I treat em rather like poll predictions - as ammunition for misinformed gossip but of no real value whatsoever.  Bring back smoking in pubs? My preference would be not to have smoking anywhere. a) I detest being next to anyone who's smoking and b) I've seen far too much of what it does to people.    

[Nick]

59 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

A very happy day, for me.     

You should kiss a foreign man to celebrate DT - you might like it and it might be your last chance before the imposition of a casual repatriation program.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

o thanks, but they can kiss my arse before they go. 

[Donut]

Brexit is shit. Why have a referendum on something with no facts either way or before a plans even been drawn up?

 

Would you join my make £100 an hour money making scheme, yes or no?

 

I wont tell you what you have to do, what your hours are, whether its legal, whether i take a cut, what youre selling, will it affect you......

 

Do you want in, yes or no?

 

Everyone that voted in the referrendum voted for what their personal idea of a brexit or not was, without an actual plan either way.

 

All politics is shit. People lie and self interest comes first. Just cause were brexiting wont change that.

[Nick]

19 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

o thanks, but they can kiss my arse before they go. 

 

And that sums you up really.

[l444ry]

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I'm just wondering what the country will be called if Scotland and eventually Northern Ireland leave?

 

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" wouldn't really be feasible any more.

 

How about "the Divided Kingdom of Lesser Britain and Northern Ireland"?

Then that could be shortened to "the Divided Kingdom of Lesser Britain" if the Northern Irish bugger off too.

"The DK" has a ring to it, as we Don't Know what we're doing...

Oh the irony! So all those wanting to "take back control" of our country will be finally getting their wish and taking back one that is only half the size it was before Brexit. 

[Thracian]

30 minutes ago, Donut said:

Brexit is shit. Why have a referendum on something with no facts either way or before a plans even been drawn up?

 

Would you join my make £100 an hour money making scheme, yes or no?

 

I wont tell you what you have to do, what your hours are, whether its legal, whether i take a cut, what youre selling, will it affect you......

 

Do you want in, yes or no?

 

Everyone that voted in the referrendum voted for what their personal idea of a brexit or not was, without an actual plan either way.

 

All politics is shit. People lie and self interest comes first. Just cause were brexiting wont change that.

I'm not much for EU politics, waste and federalisation whatever.  We've stood firmly enough on our own feet in the past, it'd be  a shame if we've lost the will or the strength.   

[Charl91]

19 minutes ago, Thracian said:

I'm not much for EU politics, waste and federalisation whatever.  We've stood firmly enough on our own feet in the past, it'd be  a shame if we've lost the will or the strength.   

Being in the EU shows we're lacking "the Will or the Strength"?

 

Good grief, what kind of shitty propaganda is this? All it's missing now is a caption stating how valiant and courageous us Brits are, emblazoned across a picture of Winston Churchill and Richard the Lionheart riding aboard a spitfire.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

Being in the EU shows we're lacking "the Will or the Strength"?

 

Good grief, what kind of shitty propaganda is this? All it's missing now is a caption stating how valiant and courageous us Brits are, emblazoned across a picture of Winston Churchill and Richard the Lionheart riding aboard a spitfire.

Or a bus with some sort of slogan written down the side

[Charl91]

2 minutes ago, Emilio Lestavez said:

Or a bus with some sort of slogan written down the side

 

Nah, people would never fall for it if it was just written on the side of a bus, surely.

[Sharpe's Fox]

We need to expose Clegg and Farron for the instellar jellyfish aliens they really are since no being from this universe would be so spineless to be in the same EU parliamentary group as crazed Euronut federalists like Guy Verhofstadt. Blokes a nutter and who does his hair? Council?

[moseeds]

Fully expecting a crazy 2 years of 'developing country' casino style financial growth followed by a giant depression/crash when the UK actually leaves the EU officially and the Scotland referendum looks likely to head for a split. This is going to be Pepsi Max at Blackpool style of a rollercoaster followed by the kind of headache the morning after that Blackpool also offers.

[Thracian]

14 minutes ago, moseeds said:

Fully expecting a crazy 2 years of 'developing country' casino style financial growth followed by a giant depression/crash when the UK actually leaves the EU officially and the Scotland referendum looks likely to head for a split. This is going to be Pepsi Max at Blackpool style of a rollercoaster followed by the kind of headache the morning after that Blackpool also offers.

What bothers me most is not the challenge of Brexit itself,  but that a good chunk of the UK will be hoping it's a disaster. It shows people up for what they are I suppose but I can't see how it'll help except in providing extra incentive for those who support Brexit to make it work. But you can bet that every setback will make headlines and mischief making will abound.       

[moseeds]

10 minutes ago, Thracian said:

What bothers me most is not the challenge of Brexit itself,  but that a good chunk of the UK will be hoping it's a disaster. It shows people up for what they are I suppose but I can't see how it'll help except in providing extra incentive for those who support Brexit to make it work. But you can bet that every setback will make headlines and mischief making will abound.       

As a 'remainer' I haven't met a single person who wants this to be a disaster. What is a disaster is selling the deal on the back of dubious information - lies. I'm sure we'll be 'fine' in the long term but no one knows what long-term means and there's no definition for 'fine' either. We're heading into the future with so many unknowns. Any questioning of these unknowns is immediately shot down with accusations of treachery and lacking faith in blighty. It's an absurd situation to be in and one entirely created from an unrelated issue - immigration.

[Donut]

No one wants Brexit to fail........we have to live here and live with its consequences. So it needs to work!

 

 

[Thracian]

22 minutes ago, Donut said:

No one wants Brexit to fail........we have to live here and live with its consequences. So it needs to work!

 

 

 

Sturgeon gives the impression she'd be delighted.   

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Donut said:

No one wants Brexit to fail........we have to live here and live with its consequences. So it needs to work!

 

 

 

This. There's no need to confuse "disinclined to help/assist to be a success and being concerned with uncertainty" with "wanting to fail".

[Jimothy]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

This. There's no need to confuse "disinclined to help/assist to be a success and being concerned with uncertainty" with "wanting to fail".

Exactly. Also when it does go wrong (which I'm sure it will) people shouldn't confuse people saying "I told you so" with them being happy about it. When it all goes to shit I'm going to make sure every vocal brexiter I know gets told so, doesn't mean I'm happy it's happened.

 

Also I have great faith in this country, certainly the people on a whole if not the government, to make the best of whatever card it is dealt.  But again people shouldn't confuse making the best of bad situation with success. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

Brexit can only be a "success" if you vote for a goverment you want in a general election and they get in. Nobody campaigned to leave the EU just for the sake of just leaving it. Whether they were Tory or a socialist it was because they want their party to legislate for their politics should they return to government. Only unimaginative centrists like the Lib Dems with their busted flush neoliberal economic model and identity politics grieve for the EU because they know for as long as we remained that narrow band of politics would be dominant.

[Alf Bentley]

7 hours ago, Thracian said:

What bothers me most is not the challenge of Brexit itself,  but that a good chunk of the UK will be hoping it's a disaster. It shows people up for what they are I suppose but I can't see how it'll help except in providing extra incentive for those who support Brexit to make it work. But you can bet that every setback will make headlines and mischief making will abound.       

 

45 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Exactly. Also when it does go wrong (which I'm sure it will) people shouldn't confuse people saying "I told you so" with them being happy about it. When it all goes to shit I'm going to make sure every vocal brexiter I know gets told so, doesn't mean I'm happy it's happened.

 

Also I have great faith in this country, certainly the people on a whole if not the government, to make the best of whatever card it is dealt.  But again people shouldn't confuse making the best of bad situation with success. 

 

People who see criticism of Brexit as disloyal or unpatriotic need to develop some self-awareness. Did they loyally and patriotically support the Labour Govt when that was the majority view? Did they loyally and patriotically support EU membership because the people had backed it in the 1975 referendum? Of course not. They criticised because they opposed those policies - and I have no problem with that. That's freedom of expression. We aren't going to shut up, even if we remain a minority.

 

Like Facecloth, I'm deeply pessimistic about where this all leads. I'd settle for somewhere mildly bad right now. I'm expecting this to deeply damage my country for the rest of my lifetime and half my daughter's. That certainly doesn't mean that I'm hoping for disaster and looking forward to enjoying it. I'd be genuinely delighted to be proved wrong and for us to get a great Brexit deal, great trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world, for the economy to prosper, society to become more harmonious and for there to be no upsurge in toxic xenophobia. After all, unless I emigrate, then I and my family have to live here, too - why would we enjoy the prospect of living in a country with major economic and social problems?

 

Sadly, Facecloth, I don't think there'll be an "I told you so" moment - apart from with the more honest and self-critical Brexiters. If/when things become difficult, I'm fully expecting the EU - and maybe foreigners in general - to get the blame. If we can't get good trade deals, the economy starts to struggle and social problems result, I can't imagine that the Govt will 'fess up and say "sorry, we got it wrong and raised false expectations". They'll blame EU intransigence - and much of the press will do likewise. A toxic xenophobic atmosphere is a distinct possibility. 

 

The public response on immigration will be an interesting one. After all, that is the one area where "success" should be guaranteed. Whether there's a good Brexit deal, a bad one or no deal, Britain will "get back control of its borders". So, what will the public reaction be if there's only a slight drop in immigration and still a lot of foreigners in the country? Particularly if living standards for natives are the same or worse than before? Will people really just be glad that "we've got back control of our borders"? Will they blame the Government for allowing too many people to enter/stay? Will they blame the immigrants themselves? They won't be able to blame the EU any more....

[Strokes]

34 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Exactly. Also when it does go wrong (which I'm sure it will) people shouldn't confuse people saying "I told you so" with them being happy about it. When it all goes to shit I'm going to make sure every vocal brexiter I know gets told so, doesn't mean I'm happy it's happened.

 

Also I have great faith in this country, certainly the people on a whole if not the government, to make the best of whatever card it is dealt.  But again people shouldn't confuse making the best of bad situation with success. 

It depends over what period of time you are judging it to be a success or failure. If the deal is poor, (which it might be) there will inevitably be a downturn. If the exit deal is good, I expect there will be quite a boost and if we can follow it up with some quickly announced trade deals, we could ride on the crest of a wave for a while. The real picture probably won't become clear until after 5-10 years, maybe even longer. I worry that the exit deal with the  EU will be where a lot of people issue judgements and although it will be a huge part of it, it will not necessarily indicate exactly what lies ahead.

[Thracian]

Like "goals conceded", downturns are inevitable and the more successful we are in any phase of our new "life" the more noticeable any downturn is likely to be.

 

Furthermore it was the many failings of EU politics which led to Brexit and any idea that we are leaving some kind of utopia is just untrue.

 

Remainers will carp about the mistake of leaving the EU at every major and minor setback. As for "patriotism" the fact that we've ceded so much power to the EU over the years is clear evidence concerning patriotism and our right to independent governance instead of some of the shit we've been saddled with.

 

My concerns are more about how much we're likely to keep in terms of EU legislation than how much we actually abandon in reality.

 

Because things need to change and if they don't then leaving the EU rather loses its point.

 

But many will be fighting for the pre-Brexit status quo to remain as untouched as possible. And would still be doing so if 90% had voted to leave.

 

Did the modern Labour party ever represent the "patriotic" view in recent years. From what I see they caused the problems by giving so much of our sovereignty away and for consequences that have created turmoil across much of Europe,

 

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[Alf Bentley]

58 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Brexit can only be a "success" if you vote for a goverment you want in a general election and they get in. Nobody campaigned to leave the EU just for the sake of just leaving it. Whether they were Tory or a socialist it was because they want their party to legislate for their politics should they return to government. Only unimaginative centrists like the Lib Dems with their busted flush neoliberal economic model and identity politics grieve for the EU because they know for as long as we remained that narrow band of politics would be dominant.

 

Certainly, the policies pursued by governments following Brexit are crucial.

 

When you say that "nobody campaigned to leave the EU for the sake of leaving", I'm not sure that's true. It might be true of many Tories and of some Eurosceptics on the Left (your stance, I think?). But UKIP didn't have a massive vision for the future beyond leaving the EU and cutting immigration, did it? I know it developed a few other policies, but largely because it had to. It may now develop some broader right-wing populist platform, but seems to have just descended into chaos post-Brexit. Likewise, there were lots of people who voted Brexit who had never voted before and were politically non-aligned. They may have just felt their lives were crap, partly blamed the EU, partly the Govt and other elites - and taken the chance to give them a kicking.

 

I wouldn't say that I "grieve for the EU", as I have strong criticisms of it. But I might end up grieving for being out of it and for what Brexit does to my country. One of the main reasons why I considered voting Leave was because it had become too neo-liberal in the last 10-15 years, serving the interests of international capital more than the interests of Joe Public, who had benefited greatly until those recent years.

 

Categorising all Remain voters as centrists and neo-liberals is unfair. I voted Remain and I'm broadly soft-left in my politics and hostile to neo-liberalism. Indeed, the main reason why I think we need international organisations like the EU is to counteract the massive, mobile power of global capital. I take it that you're not a neo-liberal yourself, but the people handed power over our country are. The Tories might approve some social measures to maintain public support, but they're essentially neo-liberal. They believe in the benign power of the free market to sort most things out, believe in a small state, low public spending, privatisation, deregulation etc. Those are the people taking back control of our nation from the "neo-liberal EU"...out of the frying-pan into the fire. Of course, that doesn't mean they'll be in power forever....but there's little chance of them losing power any time soon, so they'll be able to set the post-Brexit ground rules for this country. And if things get tough? Well, May has already threatened to turn this nation into an offshore tax haven, by definition meaning massive public spending cuts and/or taxes on the public to fund corporate tax cuts. Even Hammond targeted the self-employed, not big global companies.

[Alf Bentley]

Worth having a definition of "neo-liberalism", as it's a word sometimes used as an ill-defined insult (I'm not accusing Sharpe's Fox of that).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

"Neoliberalism (neo-liberalism)^[1] refers primarily to the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism.^[2]:7 These include extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society.^{[3][4][5][6][7][8][9]} These market-based ideas and the policies they inspired constitute a paradigm shift away from the post-war Keynesian consensus which lasted from 1945 to 1980".