Buce Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 "Taxes will not rise.." - Fallon https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/03/income-tax-absolutely-will-not-rise-under-tories-says-michael-fallon May "will not rule out tax rises,," https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/03/may-and-corbyn-enter-last-weekend-of-election-campaign-after-harsh-question-time-politics-live They can't even agree on which lies to peddle.
Guest MattP Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 1 minute ago, Buce said: "Taxes will not rise.." - Fallon https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/03/income-tax-absolutely-will-not-rise-under-tories-says-michael-fallon May "will not rule out tax rises,," https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/03/may-and-corbyn-enter-last-weekend-of-election-campaign-after-harsh-question-time-politics-live They can't even agree on which lies to peddle. Fallon is the liar there, the manifesto commits to no such thing.
Strokes Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 27 minutes ago, Buce said: Which proves that there is an exception to every rule. I wouldn't be so hard on yourself buce
Rincewind Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 1 minute ago, Buce said: "Taxes will not rise.." - Fallon https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/03/income-tax-absolutely-will-not-rise-under-tories-says-michael-fallon May "will not rule out tax rises,," https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/03/may-and-corbyn-enter-last-weekend-of-election-campaign-after-harsh-question-time-politics-live They can't even agree on which lies to peddle. No need to lie just don't talk to anyone. The next debate there will be a cardboard cutout of the Tory guest with a sign saying Strong and Stable. Everytime a question is asked the camera will zoom in on the sign.
Strokes Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 18 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Well any party governing or otherwise attempt to align themselves with 'ordinary folk' or at the very least ordinary folk who vote... any party that doesn't do that won't win an election... popular and populist ideology are not necessarily the same thing. Populist ideology is about challenging the corrupt elite not the 'undeserving rich' as Webbo's paper puts it. You also compared supporters and crowd behaviours of demographics in a negative way, associating them with Trump supporters. This wasn't about policy it was about trying to manipulate an instance by associating it with something or groups of people at polar opposites in order to discredit them. You also then went in to offensively label supporters of Corbyn likening them to a cult and calling them morons. You also then don't answer any questions on your support for Trump and similarity in policy to Tories, instead deflecting with your dislike for Hilary Clinton. Using Trump as a dirty word to demonise one group of people but quietly supporting other Trump policy with a sly satisfaction is a tad dishonest. Passing things of as fact that are your opinion is what I do take issue with. Perhaps it's just your writing style. Saying things like 'I don't expect you to be able to see it' and 'I think the vast majority can see it' is a really cheap rhetoric at positioning your argument and adds bugger all substance to your arguments. Momentum are a moronic cult.
Guest MattP Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 5 minutes ago, Strokes said: Momentum are a moronic cult. This as well.
Nick Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 29 minutes ago, MattP said: You see the main problem with accusing me of holding support for Trump is that I'm on record as saying I couldn't and wouldn't vote for Trump, so it's just not true. You have fell into that trap a lot have by assuming anyone who disliked Clinton wanted the Donald, which again, simply isn't true and isn't backed up by any evidence. It's fair to compare crowds at Trump and Corbyn rallies because they do behave similar, reasons I've already mentioned from jeering the press to attacking bankers etc - policy isn't the same, behaviour often is. I realise it's uncomfortable for you, but when even people on your own side can see it it just might be worth considering the point, rather than just getting upset because they are being compared with a figure you don't like. I'm not even a Corbyn supporter - it's not uncomfortable for me. I've pointed out that there are similarities in popular political agendas. I don't like any far right or left political crowds and all extreme political crowds have similarities in behaviours but you again are blurring both the politics and the behaviours of groups to paint a picture of an entire demographic of support which is dishonest and you are doing so to support your rhetoric. PS it's not about whether you could vote for Trump it's about the fact you personally share policy ideals, no? Yet you use him as a dirty word to discredit other groups...
leicsmac Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 2 hours ago, Captain... said: Also @MattP is partially right about Corbyn being a Lefty Trump, he did come to lead the party on a wave of populism and his radical views gained him a lot of support from those disaffected with the established elite. The difference is he is leading a party campaign and not a presidential campaign and his more extreme ideas have been filtered out, scrapping trident, abolishing the monarchy, nationalising banks etc and compromises have been made for the good of the party to create a manifesto that appeals to many people. Trumps increasingly over the top rhetoric won him many votes whereas Corbyn has had to tone it down because people are not voting for the individual but the party. Another key difference is that Corbyn doesn't have a small hardcore of backers who have varying kinds of fundamentalist belief, stand directly in the way of good scientific progress because reasons, and think that certain demographics of the population should not have fundamental rights. A small subset of supporters, but a very vocal and rather important one. 1 hour ago, MattP said: You see the main problem with accusing me of holding support for Trump is that I'm on record as saying I couldn't and wouldn't vote for Trump, so it's just not true. You have fell into that trap a lot have by assuming anyone who disliked Clinton wanted the Donald, which again, simply isn't true and isn't backed up by any evidence. It's fair to compare crowds at Trump and Corbyn rallies because they do behave similar, reasons I've already mentioned from jeering the press to attacking bankers etc - policy isn't the same, behaviour often is. I realise it's uncomfortable for you, but when even people on your own side can see it it just might be worth considering the point, rather than just getting upset because they are being compared with a figure you don't like. Come on Matt, we've been here before. You may have not voted or wanted to vote for Trump, but I'm reasonably sure that at least some of his policies you either agreed with or found amusing enough to smile about and enable - which is essentially the same thing.
Strokes Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 44 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: I'm not even a Corbyn supporter - it's not uncomfortable for me. I've pointed out that there are similarities in popular political agendas. I don't like any far right or left political crowds and all extreme political crowds have similarities in behaviours but you again are blurring both the politics and the behaviours of groups to paint a picture of an entire demographic of support which is dishonest and you are doing so to support your rhetoric. PS it's not about whether you could vote for Trump it's about the fact you personally share policy ideals, no? Yet you use him as a dirty word to discredit other groups... What are you going on about? You seem to be in agreement but are arguing because it supports Matts rhetoric? I genuinely think this is the strangest election I've ever known, nobody can agree, even if their opinion is the same/similar or they support the same party. I can't even make up my mind where I sit, it's fùcked up.
Jon the Hat Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 1 hour ago, Rincewind said: A happy workforce makes for a happy work environment and successful business. Of course there are exceptions but usually if the worker has a good reason to get up in the morning they will be more willing to give that bit extra. At my sisters place they all muck in with whatever needs doing whether its loading a van cutting material or serving customers and she can rely on any of them to do any locking up. She paysthem a decent wage as she knows what it is like to struggle. There is any will leave for another job. Pay is only a small part of that mix.
Webbo Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 1 minute ago, leicsmac said: Another key difference is that Corbyn doesn't have a small hardcore of backers who have varying kinds of fundamentalist belief, Really? Momentum is the nearest thing to a religion you can get.
Strokes Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 3 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Another key difference is that Corbyn doesn't have a small hardcore of backers who have varying kinds of fundamentalist belief, stand directly in the way of good scientific progress because reasons, and think that certain demographics of the population should not have fundamental rights. A small subset of supporters, but a very vocal and rather important one. Come on Matt, we've been here before. You may have not voted or wanted to vote for Trump, but I'm reasonably sure that at least some of his policies you either agreed with or found amusing enough to smile about and enable - which is essentially the same thing. That's not the same thing at all, I might think think the greens have a good policy or amusing ones but I certainly don't support them. Matt said right from the primaries, who he liked and who he did not iirc. And he thought Trump was a Joke, Clinton was a dangerous Crook and Sanders a nutter. Im sure there will be plenty on the left that don't vote for Labour/Corbyn but will find it hilarious if he gets in because it will upset the right.
leicsmac Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 5 minutes ago, Webbo said: Really? Momentum is the nearest thing to a religion you can get. For all their faults, the last time I checked they didn't think certain demographics were an inherent abomination and should be denied fundamental rights.
Webbo Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 4 minutes ago, leicsmac said: For all their faults, the last time I checked they didn't think certain demographics were an inherent abomination and should be denied fundamental rights. Apart from Jews?
leicsmac Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 2 minutes ago, Strokes said: That's not the same thing at all, I might think think the greens have a good policy or amusing ones but I certainly don't support them. Matt said right from the primaries, who he liked and who he did not iirc. And he thought Trump was a Joke, Clinton was a dangerous Crook and Sanders a nutter. Im sure there will be plenty on the left that don't vote for Labour/Corbyn but will find it hilarious if he gets in because it will upset the right. Sorry, I should have been clearer with my first post. I didn't correlate liking policies with direct voting support, I meant that finding policies amusing because they annoy others is essentially the same as supporting those policies. And, tbh, pretty much every single policy Trump has tried to implement thus far over here has been bad news for anyone except rich white guys. In any case, my point is that though you might liken Momentum to Trump supporters through the way they act, through their aims they are markedly different.
leicsmac Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: Apart from Jews? When a Momentum supporter goes on record as staying Jews are destined for hell and puts forward legislation that would deny them getting married or adopting, then I'll be all ears.
Guest MattP Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 One thing that has come out of last night..... Tories are galvanised again after being a bit meh - the few Corbyn fans on my Facebook page are being challenged again rather than ignored when sharing memes etc He'll get a huge youth vote but in terms of taxpaying public (certainly private sector) he just isn't going to win over enough people.
Strokes Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 10 minutes ago, leicsmac said: When a Momentum supporter goes on record as staying Jews are destined for hell and puts forward legislation that would deny them getting married or adopting, then I'll be all ears. http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57e8c2eae4b0e81629aa08f4 If that was UKIP on Islam it would be considered racist.
Guest MattP Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 15 minutes ago, leicsmac said: When a Momentum supporter goes on record as staying Jews are destined for hell and puts forward legislation that would deny them getting married or adopting, then I'll be all ears. Some of them openly support groups who not only want to deny them marriage, but actually wipe every Jew off the map. (Hamas T-shirts and flags) I wonder now if the anti-semitism from the hard left has always been there like on the far right - we just didn't see it before Social Media.
Strokes Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: Some of them openly support groups who not only want to debt them marriage, but actually wipe every Jew off the map. I wonder now if the anti-semitism from the hard left has always been there like on the far right - we just didn't see it before Social Media. Oh I'm certain of it, I could certainly tell you a few tales of things I've seen or heard but that's not for this platform. It's amazing what you hear when people think they can't be overheard.
leicsmac Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 7 minutes ago, Strokes said: http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57e8c2eae4b0e81629aa08f4 If that was UKIP on Islam it would be considered racist. I'm thinking handing out leaflets saying that Jews aren't welcome in the Labour party (as disgusting as that is, and it really is - I hope they nailed whoever was responsible to the nearest wall) is rather different from physically standing up, saying they are fundamentally wrong and then looking to pass legislation to deny them basic rights. 4 minutes ago, MattP said: Some of them openly support groups who not only want to deny them marriage, but actually wipe every Jew off the map. (Hamas T-shirts and flags) I wonder now if the anti-semitism from the hard left has always been there like on the far right - we just didn't see it before Social Media. Again, when they say such things themselves and act to pass legislation with that effect, I'll liken them to some of the Repub members of Congress and those who elect them. There is however a problem with anti-Semitism in both hard-left and hard-right fields - over here, however, the hard-right has much more power to make those it dislikes miserable.
Bryn Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 I'm going to ask a genuine question here, because my knowledge of economics isn't brilliant (probably above average in the grand scheme of things and I'm probably more likely to ask when I don't know as well); what's the evidence that having a larger economy (as in, more pounds in the pot and more production) is directly equivalent to a safer, healthier, and happier population?
Guest MattP Posted 3 June 2017 Posted 3 June 2017 6 minutes ago, Strokes said: Oh I'm certain of it, I could certainly tell you a few tales of things I've seen or heard but that's not for this platform. It's amazing what you hear when people think they can't be overheard. A question I'd like to have asked Corbyn at one of the debates was... "Ever since World War Two Labour has been the natural home for British Jews, since you took over, yougov now estimates less than 10% of them will vote for the party led by you, why do you think that is?" I'd love to know what his answer was, his reply last night to Ken Livingstone was beyond pathetic, anti-semitism is quite welcome in the Labour party now.
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