Webbo Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 6 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: So, you ask a rhetorical question implying that the Labour Party is an anti-democratic force. I answer that rhetorical question but you don't have the good grace to acknowledge that. You merely move the goalposts to ask another rhetorical question designed to sling mud. I could get down in the gutter with you to ask all sorts of biased questions as to whether the Tories are seeking to collapse the Peace Process, to roll back gay rights, to ruin the nation's finances and to make abortion illegal. But I think that sort of gutter politics is pointless. The Peace Process might be damaged accidentally (a serious risk). I don't think the DUP will influence social policy in GB, and any softening of austerity is welcome, within reason. I'll humour you and answer your latest slanted rhetorical question. My guess is that a small minority at any such protest will become unruly (hotheads, members of extremist factions, people who've been boozing etc.). McDonnell and co certainly won't want there to be a riot as it would damage their public image and lose them votes via negative media coverage. The vast majority of protesters would be peaceful. I wouldn't say the whole of the Labour Party or their supporters but I would include McDonnell and that wing of the labour party.
Guest MattP Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 3 hours ago, Swan Lesta said: ? Apart from that he talked a fair bit of sense. The next candidate they pick to lead must be somebody extraordinarily good. Has to be either Swinson or Cable. I feel for Farron, no idea why but I do.
Nick Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 Just now, MattP said: Has to be either Swinson or Cable. I feel for Farron, no idea why but I do. There's talk of Cable on a temporary basis.
Guest MattP Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 47 minutes ago, EnderbyFox said: Those 29% are seriously loyal Tories.
Alf Bentley Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 19 minutes ago, Webbo said: I wouldn't say the whole of the Labour Party or their supporters but I would include McDonnell and that wing of the labour party. McDonnell has certainly made a few dubious comments in the past, but whatever else you might think of him, he isn't stupid. He would have to be stupid to call for a protest in the hope of a riot just now. He's not a criminal or violent revolutionary just because you don't like his politics. His party might or might not be within months of forming a government able to implement the sort of policies he's spent his life dreaming about. Why would he want to be implicated in a riot that would damage his party's reputation, lose it votes and possibly lose him the opportunity to be a left-wing Chancellor of the Exchequer? People from Class War, SWP or simple hotheads could get unruly at a protest, just as people from the Countryside Alliance, EDL or Britain First might at a different sort of protest. No sane Labourite would want to be connected with a riot.
Guest MattP Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 3 hours ago, urban.spaceman said: Tim Farron has finally realised that believing that homosexuality is a sin is not Liberal and wanting to overturn the will of the British people is not Democratic. The daft Christian twat. They are his beliefs. He is allowed those. Had you written "the daft Muslim twat" you would probably be now banned and had 10 posters calling you all sorts by now.
Guest MattP Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 Just now, Alf Bentley said: McDonnell has certainly made a few dubious comments in the past, but whatever else you might think of him, he isn't stupid. He would have to be stupid to call for a protest in the hope of a riot just now. He's not a criminal or violent revolutionary just because you don't like his politics. His party might or might not be within months of forming a government able to implement the sort of policies he's spent his life dreaming about. Why would he want to be implicated in a riot that would damage his party's reputation, lose it votes and possibly lose him the opportunity to be a left-wing Chancellor of the Exchequer? People from Class War, SWP or simple hotheads could get unruly at a protest, just as people from the Countryside Alliance, EDL or Britain First might at a different sort of protest. No sane Labourite would want to be connected with a riot. Didn't he once say that the London rioters were "the best of our movement"? The man is a dangerous lunatic and it's frightening he is so close to such a position of power.
Guest MattP Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: Didn't he once say that the London rioters were "the best of our movement"? The man is a dangerous lunatic and it's frightening he is so close to such a position of power. He did. http://www.lbc.co.uk/politics/parties/labour/uncovered-john-mcdonnell-praises-2010-riots/
Nick Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 18 minutes ago, MattP said: Has to be either Swinson or Cable. I feel for Farron, no idea why but I do. I'd prefer Swinson to Davey tbh.
Guest MattP Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 “It just needed the one small spark way back in November before last, of the students kicking the s**t out of Millbank and then that spark lighting all the combustible material - that then brought people out in March, June and then November, and that’s the best of our movement and it’s still there, you know it’s still there.” 40% of British people voted that to be chancellor - yet we laugh at the yanks for electing Donald Trump. Incredible.
Guest MattP Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 Just now, Swan Lesta said: I'd prefer Swinson to Davey tbh. I'd go with her as well, Scottish seats held and a proper liberal - smart move.
leicsmac Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 4 minutes ago, MattP said: They are his beliefs. He is allowed those. Had you written "the daft Muslim twat" you would probably be now banned and had 10 posters calling you all sorts by now. He is allowed those, as long as he isn't in a political position of power where those beliefs have any chance at all (no matter how slim) of being made into legislation. As I said a few pages back, there's more than enough entangling of religion and state around the world.
leicsmac Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 2 minutes ago, MattP said: “It just needed the one small spark way back in November before last, of the students kicking the s**t out of Millbank and then that spark lighting all the combustible material - that then brought people out in March, June and then November, and that’s the best of our movement and it’s still there, you know it’s still there.” 40% of British people voted that to be chancellor - yet we laugh at the yanks for electing Donald Trump. Incredible. Didn't you hear? 2016 was a race between the UK and US to see who would make the most long-term damaging political decisions. (In the end the US won by a short neck.)
Nick Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 2 minutes ago, MattP said: I'd go with her as well, Scottish seats held and a proper liberal - smart move. Good experience too business and energy in the coalition and still very young in political landscapes.
LiberalFox Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 18 minutes ago, MattP said: Has to be either Swinson or Cable. I feel for Farron, no idea why but I do. I'd be tempted to vote for Norman Lamb. Whoever goes for it needs to be properly stress tested, it's no good trying to pretend the media are mean and it's really unfair when they grill you on comments you have made in the past. It seems clear that all the leadership candidates will have been part of the coalition and will have voted to treble tuition fees so they all need to be quizzed on what they say to people who do not trust them for breaking that pledge and what their preferred policy on tuition fees is. They should also be fully scrutinised on their coalition record and what they have learned from it.
Alf Bentley Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 26 minutes ago, MattP said: Didn't he once say that the London rioters were "the best of our movement"? The man is a dangerous lunatic and it's frightening he is so close to such a position of power. I considered rolling out Thatcher and Pinochet again, or quoting the dubious words, actions or associations of some current Tory, but I'll be the bigger man - and hopefully avoid ruining this thread with a spiral of partisan propaganda. McDonnell has made some dodgy comments in the past - as have various others in various parties. But he'd have to be an idiot to encourage a riot at the moment. Whatever else he is, he isn't an idiot. His focus will be on gaining democratic power.
Guest Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 27 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Didn't you hear? 2016 was a race between the UK and US to see who would make the most long-term damaging political decisions. (In the end the US won by a short neck.) No, the us decision will last 4 years. Our one might last for decades or even forever.
Guest MattP Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 27 minutes ago, leicsmac said: He is allowed those, as long as he isn't in a political position of power where those beliefs have any chance at all (no matter how slim) of being made into legislation. As I said a few pages back, there's more than enough entangling of religion and state around the world. Do you think anyone with a religious belief should be excluded from office now if it's one you don't agree with? You don't think Gove is fit as he disagrees with you on climate change, Trump on everything. Now Farron as he doesn't tow your line on social issues. Can you send us a list of politicians you think we should be allowed to vote for? I wouldn't, but if wanted to what jobs in the cabinet would I be allowed to stand for? 3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I considered rolling out Thatcher and Pinochet again, or quoting the dubious words, actions or associations of some current Tory, but I'll be the bigger man - and hopefully avoid ruining this thread with a spiral of partisan propaganda. McDonnell has made some dodgy comments in the past - as have various others in various parties. But he'd have to be an idiot to encourage a riot at the moment. Whatever else he is, he isn't an idiot. His focus will be on gaining democratic power. Thatcher is dead, she isn't running for office in 2017. McDonnell is. So we should talk about his beliefs. To compare the two isn't relevant.
Guest MattP Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 29 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: I'd be tempted to vote for Norman Lamb. Whoever goes for it needs to be properly stress tested, it's no good trying to pretend the media are mean and it's really unfair when they grill you on comments you have made in the past. It seems clear that all the leadership candidates will have been part of the coalition and will have voted to treble tuition fees so they all need to be quizzed on what they say to people who do not trust them for breaking that pledge and what their preferred policy on tuition fees is. They should also be fully scrutinised on their coalition record and what they have learned from it. I forgot about Lamb - a good shout. No baggage and does seem a liberal.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 1 hour ago, EnderbyFox said: That fieldwork was prior to Grenfell!
Alf Bentley Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 9 minutes ago, MattP said: Thatcher is dead, she isn't running for office in 2017. McDonnell is. So we should talk about his beliefs. To compare the two isn't relevant. I presume you'll never comment again on Blair or Brown, then? They're not dead but aren't running for office. Thatcher remains more of an idol to her party - and to Tory posters on here - than Blair or Brown do. If we're going to limit it to serving politicians, there seem to be questions over Gavin Barwell, May's newly-appointed special adviser - allegations that he delayed action over housing improvements after the 2009 Camberwell fire. If there's any truth in that, it would be a hell of a lot more serious than a few stupid comments by McDonnell; likewise if the Tory council of Kensington & Chelsea bears any responsibility for the appalling tragedy currently unfolding. We already have Boris and his £350m per week for the NHS and his offers to help Turkey join the EU - and then attempts to scare everyone with the prospect that it was imminent.... Anyway, I haven't got the stomach for this partisan shite - and have to go out shortly. Fill your boots!
leicsmac Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 2 minutes ago, MattP said: Do you think anyone with a religious belief should be excluded from office now if it's one you don't agree with? You don't think Gove is fit as he disagrees with you on climate change, Trump on everything. Now Farron as he doesn't tow your line on social issues. Can you send us a list of politicians you think we should be allowed to vote for? I wouldn't, but if wanted to what jobs in the cabinet would I be allowed to stand for? If a person has religious belief that is actively discriminatory against a particular group simply because the Good Book of Whatever says so...absolutely. It's no better than discriminating against a group for another arbitrary reason, and having beliefs of any kind like that near legislative power is...disconcerting. Jesus-style "love thy neighbour" belief...absolutely not. That doesn't discriminate or have the potential to. That is the key difference here. Not the religious belief itself, but when it might be used to go after other people simply because the text on which it is based says so. Regarding Gove, I've already said that he can be elevated to any position the PM sees fit, just that I think having an EnvironSec with views that could potentially damage the environment irreparably is a rather strange move. Trump...well, the disagreement is there (esp on environmental stuff) but again, he's welcome to run for office and there should never be a block on him doing so.
LiberalFox Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 On religion... I don't think Tim Farron's religious beliefs have been handled very well either by him or the party. He isn't just a Christian but an Evangelist and he has quite a strong interpretation of the faith such as believing in the concept of heaven and hell. The question on gay sex should have been answered with a simple "no" just like Theresa May answered it. She has a "worse" voting record on LGBT+ rights but wasn't hounded because she gave a simple answer. I don't think people with a religious belief should be excluded from politics but I don't think it is unreasonable that people would consider whether they can vote for someone who might be prejudiced by their religion. I don't think I would have voted Lib Dem if I was not already a member of the party. I really don't trust "born again" religious people. It is not something obviously compatible with the values of reason and logic that I value most. It is my democratic right to vote for whoever I want and there is no formal definition of "a liberal" either. There may well be people who think it is deeply illiberal to consider anyone's personal beliefs relevant to a decision to vote for them, but I think people are always influenced by their prejudices and don't believe in the mythical construct of the "true liberal", the idea that you could be racist, homophobic, anti-semitic or whatever else privately, yet publicly not discriminate against anyone. It's a shame that people are going to interpret Tim Farron's resignation as proof that "liberals" are actually cultishly "PC" when I don't think this is true. I certainly wouldn't mind a politician having a faith, but it has to be an interpretation of that faith that does not infringe on other people's rights in my view.
Buce Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 Sinn Fein say Govt 'breaching Good Friday Agreement'. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/15/theresa-may-northern-ireland-talks-dup-deal-delayed-politics-live?page=with:block-5942ae11e4b0240ef7614cc2#block-5942ae11e4b0240ef7614cc2
LiberalFox Posted 15 June 2017 Posted 15 June 2017 It's early early days but I've been very impressed so far with Layla Moran our new MP for Oxford West and Abingdon.
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