General Election, June 8th

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

Out of curiosity, what do you find ridiculous about the proposed Irish Language Act? 

 

Do you view it as a waste of money because only a tiny number of people in N. Ireland speak Irish as a first language (though a larger minority use it as a second language)?

If so, in the far-fetched hypothetical situation where the Chinese had taken over England and most people spoke Mandarin, would you view it as a waste of money to try to keep the Engllish language alive?

 

The sister-in-law of David Ervine, the late Loyalist leader (for whom I had a lot of respect), disagrees with you: http://www.irishnews.com/news/politicalnews/2017/02/07/news/linda-ervine-sad-at-arlene-foster-s-comments-on-irish-language-act-922515/

Yep, when we are in such a critical condition with finance I think it's ludicrous to be spending decent money on it, yes to the second question as well, if we have ever got to a point in this country where English was such a tiny minority language then yes, it would deserve to die.

[Guest MattP]

[Alf Bentley]

26 minutes ago, MattP said:

Yep, when we are in such a critical condition with finance I think it's ludicrous to be spending decent money on it, yes to the second question as well, if we have ever got to a point in this country where English was such a tiny minority language then yes, it would deserve to die.

 

I find that sad on both counts (Irish and hypothetical English scenarios). Humanity and the diversity of human culture matters more than saving a few quid. Agree to disagree, anyway.

As an aside, I remember reading that research showed that growing up bilingual correlated to higher intelligence in adulthood, though I've no idea how reliable the research was.

 

I wonder how the potential savings would compare to the money wasted in Northern Ireland on the Renewable Heat Incentive scheme? That's another of Sinn Fein's demands - accountability for the money wasted in that scandal.

According to this, the total cost of the Heat Incentive could amount to £1bn (£600m from the UK Treasury and £400m from the Northern Irish block grant): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38307628

I've just checked: apparently the DUP claim is that the Irish Language initiative would cost £100m (and presumably the DUP will be over-estimating, if anything).....so probably less than 10% what was spent/wasted on the Heat Incentive.

 

The name of the Northern Irish minister responsible for the scheme? Arlene Foster....yet you find it a "beautiful picture" to see her arriving in London to demand more money from the UK Treasury.

One of her MPs even joked that the DUP were "going shopping" in London. 

 

[Rincewind]

We should have kept the Saxon English.

[Darkon84]

33 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I find that sad on both counts (Irish and hypothetical English scenarios). Humanity and the diversity of human culture matters more than saving a few quid. Agree to disagree, anyway.

As an aside, I remember reading that research showed that growing up bilingual correlated to higher intelligence in adulthood, though I've no idea how reliable the research was.

 

I wonder how the potential savings would compare to the money wasted in Northern Ireland on the Renewable Heat Incentive scheme? That's another of Sinn Fein's demands - accountability for the money wasted in that scandal.

According to this, the total cost of the Heat Incentive could amount to £1bn (£600m from the UK Treasury and £400m from the Northern Irish block grant): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38307628

I've just checked: apparently the DUP claim is that the Irish Language initiative would cost £100m (and presumably the DUP will be over-estimating, if anything).....so probably less than 10% what was spent/wasted on the Heat Incentive.

 

The name of the Northern Irish minister responsible for the scheme? Arlene Foster....yet you find it a "beautiful picture" to see her arriving in London to demand more money from the UK Treasury.

One of her MPs even joked that the DUP were "going shopping" in London. 

 

 

Going a bit off topic briefly.

 

With regards to the bit on bold, I've always wondered why Foster in particular has taken such gigantic flak for it, but no one over here? I can only assume she came up with the incentive in the first place? Or implemented it with even greater tariffs than over here, therefore wasting even more money? I'm pretty familiar with the scheme and it's failings, having worked on and helped design numerous RHI projects, so can tell you that some of them are laughing all the way to the bank with their locked in ridiculous tariffs, but I have never seen anyone really complain about the rate at which the tariffs were set, which was by the Tory/Lib Dem Coalition Government.

 

EDIT: Actually, it doesn't matter, the answer is already there in front of me  serves me right for skim reading. It's still a little strange that no one on this side of the Irish Sea got pulled up for it though. Ah well.

[Guest MattP]

19 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I find that sad on both counts (Irish and hypothetical English scenarios). Humanity and the diversity of human culture matters more than saving a few quid. Agree to disagree, anyway.

As an aside, I remember reading that research showed that growing up bilingual correlated to higher intelligence in adulthood, though I've no idea how reliable the research was.

 

I wonder how the potential savings would compare to the money wasted in Northern Ireland on the Renewable Heat Incentive scheme? That's another of Sinn Fein's demands - accountability for the money wasted in that scandal.

According to this, the total cost of the Heat Incentive could amount to £1bn (£600m from the UK Treasury and £400m from the Northern Irish block grant): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38307628

I've just checked: apparently the DUP claim is that the Irish Language initiative would cost £100m (and presumably the DUP will be over-estimating, if anything).....so probably less than 10% what was spent/wasted on the Heat Incentive.

 

The name of the Northern Irish minister responsible for the scheme? Arlene Foster....yet you find it a "beautiful picture" to see her arriving in London to demand more money from the UK Treasury.

One of her MPs even joked that the DUP were "going shopping" in London. 

Oh I agree with that, but I don't think it should be publicly funded, it wouldn't ever vanish completely, people still take and speak Latin courses these days but the Italian community don't demand taxpayers fork out for those people to do so or have a doctors appointment spoken in it.

 

The heating incentive was farcical, I still don't know how we agreed to this. I said there was something beautiful about her, a girl who was on a school bus the IRA tried to bomb stopping Corbyn and McDonnell from taking office, I find it tragic that we now have to throw money at people to keep them out - although I'd imagine that still is going to be far cheaper for the nation than watching Labour implement their manifesto.

 

Anyway, I have to work whilst watching the cricket, getting back into old habits!

[Alf Bentley]

43 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

 

Going a bit off topic briefly.

 

With regards to the bit on bold, I've always wondered why Foster in particular has taken such gigantic flak for it, but no one over here? I can only assume she came up with the incentive in the first place? Or implemented it with even greater tariffs than over here, therefore wasting even more money? I'm pretty familiar with the scheme and it's failings, having worked on and helped design numerous RHI projects, so can tell you that some of them are laughing all the way to the bank with their locked in ridiculous tariffs, but I have never seen anyone really complain about the rate at which the tariffs were set, which was by the Tory/Lib Dem Coalition Government.

 

EDIT: Actually, it doesn't matter, the answer is already there in front of me  serves me right for skim reading. It's still a little strange that no one on this side of the Irish Sea got pulled up for it though. Ah well.

 

You've obviously seen from the link why it's been a big issue in N. Ireland but not here. For anyone else, here's the bit describing how the N. Ireland scheme was much more generous and open to fraud:

 

"How does the scheme differ in NI from its equivalent in Great Britain?

The RHI schemes in NI and GB are similar but there are important differences.

[In N. Ireland], a generous subsidy was paid at a flat rate guaranteed for 20 years.

In Great Britain, there was a tiered rate with the upper amount paid for a percentage of the heat generated and a much lower rate for the rest.

In addition Great Britain had "degression", a price-control measure which allowed for the reduction of the subsidy rate in response to demand and to close the scheme quickly.

That is how the costs in Northern Ireland spiralled in a way they have not in Great Britain.

Why was there no limit applied?

That is the key question at the root of the controversy and what investigations into the scandal will undoubtedly focus on.

What are the figures involved?

1,946 applications were approved under the non-domestic RHI scheme - a 98% approval rate.

The assembly's Public Accounts Committee was told that a subsequent independent audit had found issues at half of the 300 installations inspected.

14 of those fell into the most serious category where fraud was suspected and payments to five of these have been suspended."

[Darkon84]

14 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

You've obviously seen from the link why it's been a big issue in N. Ireland but not here. For anyone else, here's the bit describing how the N. Ireland scheme was much more generous and open to fraud:

 

"How does the scheme differ in NI from its equivalent in Great Britain?

The RHI schemes in NI and GB are similar but there are important differences.

[In N. Ireland], a generous subsidy was paid at a flat rate guaranteed for 20 years.

In Great Britain, there was a tiered rate with the upper amount paid for a percentage of the heat generated and a much lower rate for the rest.

In addition Great Britain had "degression", a price-control measure which allowed for the reduction of the subsidy rate in response to demand and to close the scheme quickly.

That is how the costs in Northern Ireland spiralled in a way they have not in Great Britain.

Why was there no limit applied?

That is the key question at the root of the controversy and what investigations into the scandal will undoubtedly focus on.

What are the figures involved?

1,946 applications were approved under the non-domestic RHI scheme - a 98% approval rate.

The assembly's Public Accounts Committee was told that a subsequent independent audit had found issues at half of the 300 installations inspected.

14 of those fell into the most serious category where fraud was suspected and payments to five of these have been suspended."

 

Cheers Alf! Despite the tiered system being used over here, I've seen first hand that it has still been hugely taken advantage of and people have made a real killing from it, particularly with Biomass on farms, estates etc. In many of the cases, it's simply meant the richer getting richer. though clearly not to the extent as in NI!! The annoying thing is that by forking out so much money originally, the government scaled all feed in tariffs, incentives etc back so much that it's barely worth doing in many cases, thus putting people off and reducing our renewable potential (for now at least). 

 

Ah well, just a small derailment there. Feel free to get things back on track. 

[Alf Bentley]

I've not paid much attention to this Northern Irish Renewable Heat Incentive scandal until now. Judging from this, Arlene Foster certainly has questions to answer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38301428

- A whistleblower claims to have informed her, as the minister responsible, of the abuse/fraud 3 years before anything was done

- Allegations that she actively sought to prevent others from closing the scheme down

- Allegations that her name was removed from various papers concerning the scheme (not her doing, she says)

- A DUP Assembly Member has admitted that 4 members of his family installed wood pellet boilers to cash in on the scheme

- Some bloke aimed to claim £1m of public funds over 20 years for heating an empty shed 

 

"Innocent until proven guilty", of course, but she clearly has questions to answer......and this is the person that our new "strong and stable government" will rely upon "in the national interest"?! 

[Buce]

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I find that sad on both counts (Irish and hypothetical English scenarios). Humanity and the diversity of human culture matters more than saving a few quid. Agree to disagree, anyway.

As an aside, I remember reading that research showed that growing up bilingual correlated to higher intelligence in adulthood, though I've no idea how reliable the research was.

 

I wonder how the potential savings would compare to the money wasted in Northern Ireland on the Renewable Heat Incentive scheme? That's another of Sinn Fein's demands - accountability for the money wasted in that scandal.

According to this, the total cost of the Heat Incentive could amount to £1bn (£600m from the UK Treasury and £400m from the Northern Irish block grant): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38307628

I've just checked: apparently the DUP claim is that the Irish Language initiative would cost £100m (and presumably the DUP will be over-estimating, if anything).....so probably less than 10% what was spent/wasted on the Heat Incentive.

 

The name of the Northern Irish minister responsible for the scheme? Arlene Foster....yet you find it a "beautiful picture" to see her arriving in London to demand more money from the UK Treasury.

One of her MPs even joked that the DUP were "going shopping" in London. 

 

 

Remind me, Alf - how many languages do you speak? 

 

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Oh I agree with that, but I don't think it should be publicly funded, it wouldn't ever vanish completely, people still take and speak Latin courses these days but the Italian community don't demand taxpayers fork out for those people to do so or have a doctors appointment spoken in it.

 

The heating incentive was farcical, I still don't know how we agreed to this. I said there was something beautiful about her, a girl who was on a school bus the IRA tried to bomb stopping Corbyn and McDonnell from taking office, I find it tragic that we now have to throw money at people to keep them out - although I'd imagine that still is going to be far cheaper for the nation than watching Labour implement their manifesto.

 

Anyway, I have to work whilst watching the cricket, getting back into old habits!

 

 

Wtf?

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

• Remind me, Alf - how many languages do you speak? 

 

 

 

Wtf?

 

 

The research didn't say anything about any link between intelligence and learning languages as an adult, only with growing up bilingual.

I only grew up bilingual in one language - English. (There's some Irish-English for you! )

 

@MattP would apparently be quite content with a future in which English was like Latin and only a handful of academics could understand Shakespeare and Dickens or appreciate The Beatles or Springsteen.....provided that it saved almost 10% of the amount wasted on the Northern Irish Heat Incentive scandal. Your reaction is quite understandable, Buce....." Wtf", indeed! 

[fuchsntf]

4 hours ago, MattP said:

Yep, when we are in such a critical condition with finance I think it's ludicrous to be spending decent money on it, yes to the second question as well, if we have ever got to a point in this country where English was such a tiny minority language then yes, it would deserve to die.

We are not in a critical condition financially, your politicians and poor businessmen are robbing you...

60yrs of audacity and austerity, no matter which party is in....

Languages are part of our nations birthright, If you cant understand that from your education...god forbid..innit!!!

 

[Guest MattP]

42 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

@MattP would apparently be quite content with a future in which English was like Latin and only a handful of academics could understand Shakespeare and Dickens or appreciate The Beatles or Springsteen.....provided that it saved almost 10% of the amount wasted on the Northern Irish Heat Incentive scandal. Your reaction is quite understandable, Buce....." Wtf", indeed! 

Total fake news. I haven't said that at all.

 

I said it shouldn't be publicly funded if it dies out - I never even mentioned or equated it to the money lost from the heating scandal.

[Alf Bentley]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Total fake news. I haven't said that at all.

 

I said it shouldn't be publicly funded if it dies out - I never even mentioned or equated it to the money lost from the heating scandal.

 

OK, so you didn't compare it to the money lost from the heating scandal. I did. But you did say that you didn't want public funds used to support the Irish language - funds that the DUP (probably over-estimating) put at 10% the amount spent on the Heat scheme. You did make a comparison to Latin and said that English "would deserve to die" (like Irish) if it became a tiny minority language.

 

Latin is only understood by a tiny minority of academics and students. Rather than spend some public funds, you'd risk Irish (or hypothetically English) ceasing to be living languages and becoming dead, academic languages incomprehensible to 99% of the population. If it were English, only academics would be able to understand Bob Dylan or read Thomas Hardy.

 

It doesn't particularly surprise me that you'd not be bothered about that happening to the Irish language, but does surprise me that you wouldn't care about it happening to English. As a proud English nationalist, I'm sure you would care.

Maybe I've got it wrong, but my guess is that you wouldn't care about the Irish language disappearing (you might even be pleased), but would care very much about English becoming a dead language. Come on! Be honest! 

 

(I've no wish to get into an argument about this, btw, not least as the English language is hardly under threat - and Irish as a first language has almost gone, although bilingualism is now standard in education/formal situations in the Irish Republic, though only very partial in everyday usage. Agree to disagree....)

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

OK, so you didn't compare it to the money lost from the heating scandal. I did. But you did say that you didn't want public funds used to support the Irish language - funds that the DUP (probably over-estimating) put at 10% the amount spent on the Heat scheme. You did make a comparison to Latin and said that English "would deserve to die" (like Irish) if it became a tiny minority language.

 

Latin is only understood by a tiny minority of academics and students. Rather than spend some public funds, you'd risk Irish (or hypothetically English) ceasing to be living languages and becoming dead, academic languages incomprehensible to 99% of the population. If it were English, only academics would be able to understand Bob Dylan or read Thomas Hardy.

 

It doesn't particularly surprise me that you'd not be bothered about that happening to the Irish language, but does surprise me that you wouldn't care about it happening to English. As a proud English nationalist, I'm sure you would care.

Maybe I've got it wrong, but my guess is that you wouldn't care about the Irish language disappearing (you might even be pleased), but would care very much about English becoming a dead language. Come on! Be honest! 

 

(I've no wish to get into an argument about this, btw, not least as the English language is hardly under threat - and Irish as a first language has almost gone, although bilingualism is now standard in education/formal situations in the Irish Republic, though only very partial in everyday usage. Agree to disagree....)

I dont think we should waste money on languages, it doesn't really feature on my list of priorities whether it's 100%, 10% or 1% of a bogus heating project bill.

 

If English became such a minority language then it wouldn't bother me to see it die out, that's just the natural progression of history, don't get me wrong I'd do anything to keep it as a major language as it's massively beneficial to us and widely spoken but if it went from being the World's most common one to rarely spoken we wouldn't have a proper England to go with it anyway.

 

I take the cultural point, but if English has become so irrelevant by that point, no one but academics etc would be interested in things like Shakespeare anyway.

 

Apologies if I come across as curt, I've got the right arse over the cricket.

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

I dont think we should waste money on languages, it doesn't really feature on my list of priorities whether it's 100%, 10% or 1% of a bogus heating project bill.

 

If English became such a minority language then it wouldn't bother me to see it die out, that's just the natural progression of history, don't get me wrong I'd do anything to keep it as a major language as it's massively beneficial to us and widely spoken but if it went from being the World's most common one to rarely spoken we wouldn't have a proper England to go with it anyway.

 

I take the cultural point, but if English has become so irrelevant by that point, no one but academics etc would be interested in things like Shakespeare anyway.

 

Apologies if I come across as curt, I've got the right arse over the cricket.

 

No apologies required. I didn't find you curt. No idea what's happening in the cricket.

 

Languages feed into our culture and enrich it, whether national languages, minority languages, dialects or slang. Languages that have existed for millennia can have roots and references to cultures, societies and ways of seeing the world that enrich our world even today. It's a shame to lose that rich diversity and worth spending a few bob to keep it alive - though I'd prioritise use in school education, promotion of culture/literature, rather than stuff like bilingual road-signs or court hearings in Irish.....though the latter support the semi-bilingual message, I suppose. We value what is expressed in Renaissance paintings or black-and-white films even though society has moved on and those are "outdated" media of communication.

 

I regret the fact that I'm not more familiar with Shakespeare. I'm reading his biography by Peter Ackroyd at the moment (Ackroyd is a great writer himself). When I was a kid, I pressed my (Irish) Dad as to who was the greatest person ever. After the usual caveats about not being able to compare inventors to writers or engineers to diplomats, he said Shakespeare. In return, I'd say that the greatest work I've ever read in the English language was "Ulysses" by Joyce, an Irishman - the Irish language has made a contribution to the English language, too (though Joyce would've been a genius whatever his nationality).

 

Diversion over, must work! 

[Guest MattP]

Ulysses is still on my list of classics to read, I'll bump it up the list. 

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Ulysses is still on my list of classics to read, I'll bump it up the list. 

 

If you get round to it, I'd get a volume with some notes to appreciate the references / diverse styles / word plays.

 

No need to be constantly referring to notes, though. It has the reputation of being a difficult book, but that's not true - it's highly entertaining, even hilarious in parts.

I did quickly give up on his "Finnegan's Wake", though.....will hopefully try it again some day.

 

Must go and see a few more Shakespeare plays, though, before I'm dead. After Ackroyd's biography, I've got Germaine Greer's biography of Mrs. Shakespeare lined up.  

[Foxxed]

Left-wing prime minister John Major telling us that the Tory/DUP coalition risks Northern Irish Peace.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/13/john-major-tory-dup-deal-could-jeopardise-northern-ireland-peace

 

The DUP also did not support the Good Friday agreement. And now May has done a deal with the DUP.

 

Has May given Sinn Fein a reason to abandon the Good Friday agreement? The FT think "maybe":

 

Quote

Theresa May‘s decision to call on the support of the Democratic Unionist party to prop up her minority government has injected more uncertainty into the future of Northern Ireland.

 

The party’s rush to support Mrs May could determine whether the province returns to devolved government or faces a period of direct rule from London.

 

Talks involving Northern Ireland’s five main political factions are due to start on Monday to try to restore a devolved executive at Stormont. The experiment with devolution collapsed in January, when Sinn Féin, the main Irish nationalist party, pulled out of the power-sharing executive.

 

The collapse triggered a local election, in which Sinn Féin came within a whisker of overtaking the DUP as the largest political party in Northern Ireland. Since then, the two parties have failed to agree a working arrangement to restore the executive, leaving the province in political limbo just as the UK’s Brexit negotiations are due to get under way.

 

Northern Ireland’s devolved political institutions are creatures of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, which ended the Troubles. Article 1 of the agreement states that the UK and Irish governments should act with “rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions”.

 

If the UK government is reliant on the DUP for its political survival, the question is whether such impartiality is possible given the unionists’ stake both in the domestic politics of Northern Ireland and the national government at Westminster.

I've read that clause in the agreement but it's unclear to me. It all depends on what Sinn Fein and its supporters think, though.

[Foxxed]

On 13/06/2017 at 14:16, SMX11 said:

Define 'Hard Brexit'. It means nothing to me other than a buzzword for 'I don't like it'. If you mean leaving the single market and the customs union then most voted for that in the election based on the manifestos.

Soft Brexit is leaving the EU decision making.

 

Hard Brexit is leaving the EU decision making and Single Market.

 

The Single Market allows us to sell goods and services to the EU without tariffs, and import them without tariffs.

 

The Single Market demands free movement of people: you can't sell goods in Poland if Poland tell you to get out of their country.

 

Hardest Brexit is leaving the Customs Union in addition to the above.

 

The Customs Unions removes tariffs, not on the goods or services we produce, but on the goods we import and then sell onto the EU.

 

Only the hardest Brexit gives us the ability to create our own trade deals, incidentally.

[davieG]

31 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

Soft Brexit is leaving the EU decision making.

 

Hard Brexit is leaving the EU decision making and Single Market.

 

The Single Market allows us to sell goods and services to the EU without tariffs, and import them without tariffs.

 

The Single Market demands free movement of people: you can't sell goods in Poland if Poland tell you to get out of their country.

 

Hardest Brexit is leaving the Customs Union in addition to the above.

 

The Customs Unions removes tariffs, not on the goods or services we produce, but on the goods we import and then sell onto the EU.

 

Only the hardest Brexit gives us the ability to create our own trade deals, incidentally.

So if we end up with a soft Brexit we may as well have stayed in.

[The Horse's Mouth]

Farron's gone

[TheUltimateWinner]

2 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Farron's gone

Makes sense, think he's back on Doctor Who in a few weeks time

 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

They dont exactly have a gluttony of talent to choose from to replace him.

[Webbo]

That's a shame. Being religious shouldn't be a barrier to political office.