Guest MattP Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said: And the best 'possible' deal..... which sounds like some real fighting talk over some table scraps! Yep, that's probably where we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 Just now, MattP said: Yep, that's probably where we are now. It doesn't really feel like its an empowering process of independence and future strength - more like an embarrassing road to a failing economy and an inevitable government change... Tories would be better of letting Labour make a hash of it! This Parliament is a poisoned chalice - no government could survive it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 2 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Sure - I simply thought the DUP agreement would have to be done before this process took place... So what happens now - do the commons vote on whether to accept the governments proposals? I read that the issues in the Queen's Speech will be debated for a few days before any vote is taken. As I understand it, any defeat on the Queen's Speech would be treated like a vote of no confidence and could bring down the government - but I'm not sure whether that is set in stone constitutionally or just a tradition. Anybody know? Even if there's no formal Tory/DUP deal yet, I'm sure they have a firm understanding that the DUP will support the Queen's Speech. If no deal is completed soon, it will leave the government vulnerable in future votes, though - particularly if anything (Brexit, Ireland, economy) starts to go seriously wrong and to affect the reputation of the DUP by association. Mind you, any divisions in the government majority could just as easily happen within the Tory party (over Brexit, with Scottish Tories etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 2 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: It doesn't really feel like its an empowering process of independence and future strength - more like an embarrassing road to a failing economy and an inevitable government change... Tories would be better of letting Labour make a hash of it! This Parliament is a poisoned chalice - no government could survive it. Yep. As a (not uncritical) Labour supporter, party interests are almost certainly best served by the Tories staying in power for at least a few months, if not a year or two. I struggle to see how the Tories can make a success of this parliament. It's highly unlikely that the Brexit negotiations will bring them popularity. OK, they can ease up on austerity a bit, but any benefits of that will almost certainly be eaten up by the effects of likely short-term economic decline. Sadly, we can also probably throw a few more terror attacks into the mix and a likely rise of the Far Right.....a poisoned chalice, as you say, especially with a fragile minority govt, a divided party and a discredited leader. If there were another election now, the Tories might do worse than a few weeks ago, but I doubt that Labour could win a majority, so they'd be in the same difficult position as the Tories are now (albeit with a better trajectory and a mandate to spend more). If the Tories stay in office while the wheels come off, Labour could easily win a majority in a year's time or whenever. On a side-track: I was down in Kent at the weekend and got talking to a mate of a mate who's heavily into left-wing politics down there - but who seemed a reliable source. He was telling me that there's been a big rise in support for the Far Right - particularly Britain First - down there in the last couple of years: well-attended rallies, growing membership and big casual support in pubs etc. I'm afraid a big rise in the Far Right is something that I'm expecting, especially if the economy turns down, Brexit negotiations don't yield what Brexiters expect and/or more Islamist terror outrages are staged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Yep. As a (not uncritical) Labour supporter, party interests are almost certainly best served by the Tories staying in power for at least a few months, if not a year or two. I struggle to see how the Tories can make a success of this parliament. It's highly unlikely that the Brexit negotiations will bring them popularity. OK, they can ease up on austerity a bit, but any benefits of that will almost certainly be eaten up by the effects of likely short-term economic decline. Sadly, we can also probably throw a few more terror attacks into the mix and a likely rise of the Far Right.....a poisoned chalice, as you say, especially with a fragile minority govt, a divided party and a discredited leader. If there were another election now, the Tories might do worse than a few weeks ago, but I doubt that Labour could win a majority, so they'd be in the same difficult position as the Tories are now (albeit with a better trajectory and a mandate to spend more). If the Tories stay in office while the wheels come off, Labour could easily win a majority in a year's time or whenever. On a side-track: I was down in Kent at the weekend and got talking to a mate of a mate who's heavily into left-wing politics down there - but who seemed a reliable source. He was telling me that there's been a big rise in support for the Far Right - particularly Britain First - down there in the last couple of years: well-attended rallies, growing membership and big casual support in pubs etc. I'm afraid a big rise in the Far Right is something that I'm expecting, especially if the economy turns down, Brexit negotiations don't yield what Brexiters expect and/or more Islamist terror outrages are staged. And I think in some ways Farage and UKIP gave the far right blinkered bell ends a vehicle to channel their representation through but now thats all gone west, it does appear that they are seeking out and forming their own little cohorts... It was a bit like that in the mid 90's - you walk in to a pub in a strange town or city and some guy with a shaved head politely asks to join you then sits down to tell you what a great gut Columbus was.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said: And I think in some ways Farage and UKIP gave the far right blinkered bell ends a vehicle to channel their representation through but now thats all gone west, it does appear that they are seeking out and forming their own little cohorts... It was a bit like that in the mid 90's - you walk in to a pub in a strange town or city and some guy with a shaved head politely asks to join you then sits down to tell you what a great gut Columbus was.... Yes. I think the country has actually been quite well served having Farage and UKIP as the main outlet for politics to the right of the Tories (yes, I know, it's not as simple as right-left with populist stuff). It might be quite good for the state of the nation in difficult times if Farage comes back as UKIP leader again, syphoning support away from the likes of Britain First & Tommy Robinson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 6 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Yes. I think the country has actually been quite well served having Farage and UKIP as the main outlet for politics to the right of the Tories (yes, I know, it's not as simple as right-left with populist stuff). It might be quite good for the state of the nation in difficult times if Farage comes back as UKIP leader again, syphoning support away from the likes of Britain First & Tommy Robinson. At the time when the far right were arguably at their most dangerous and had their greatest depth of support in recent times, we were spoilt with the laughable incompetence of Nick Griffin who though I thought was the biggest joke in the history of political humanity did a fantastic job of not getting anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 3 hours ago, Foxin_mad said: I am not sure there have been any events where the far right (however despicable they maybe) have threatened to bring down a government that was democratically elected, but I am happy for you to enlighten me with examples Only too happy to oblige: - the hanging of Obama in effigy at various protests after he was elected (the implication is pretty clear) - Britain First (or at least some elements of it) calling for more "direct action" against those it considers undesirable; again, the implication that the Government has to change for this to happen - Ukrainian far-right groups engaging in protest with a clear objective of government overthrow. And those are just three examples. I'm sure if folks looked deeper they could find more as well as quotes from those involved to back them up. And, of course, all of this is based on the rather egregious assumption that the intent of the protests here is to bring down the government as opposed to, say, merely highlight grievances. Calling it a "day of rage" quite frankly is fvcking stupid and McDonnell has been a moron, but I'm not having that both ends of the political spectrum don't engage in exactly the same stupid behaviour at some points in time. If anything, the far right is better at being more subtle about it, as you can see in a few places over here in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 6 hours ago, davieG said: Don't forget the over 65s not being allowed to vote. Could be a good idea. It's a cause for concern what some of the elderly generation get up to. Look at this Davie fellow: https://rinxolsdefoc.wordpress.com/2016/06/19/dainty-davie-tendre-davie/ "It was down among my father’s pease and underneath the cherry trees. It was there he kissed me as he pleased; now he’s my only dainty Davie. Oh, leeze me on your curly pow, dainty Davie, dainty Davie." I've no idea what "leezing" is, but this Davie needs to keep his "curly pow" to himself at his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said: Yep. As a (not uncritical) Labour supporter, party interests are almost certainly best served by the Tories staying in power for at least a few months, if not a year or two. I struggle to see how the Tories can make a success of this parliament. It's highly unlikely that the Brexit negotiations will bring them popularity. OK, they can ease up on austerity a bit, but any benefits of that will almost certainly be eaten up by the effects of likely short-term economic decline. Sadly, we can also probably throw a few more terror attacks into the mix and a likely rise of the Far Right.....a poisoned chalice, as you say, especially with a fragile minority govt, a divided party and a discredited leader. If there were another election now, the Tories might do worse than a few weeks ago, but I doubt that Labour could win a majority, so they'd be in the same difficult position as the Tories are now (albeit with a better trajectory and a mandate to spend more). If the Tories stay in office while the wheels come off, Labour could easily win a majority in a year's time or whenever. On a side-track: I was down in Kent at the weekend and got talking to a mate of a mate who's heavily into left-wing politics down there - but who seemed a reliable source. He was telling me that there's been a big rise in support for the Far Right - particularly Britain First - down there in the last couple of years: well-attended rallies, growing membership and big casual support in pubs etc. I'm afraid a big rise in the Far Right is something that I'm expecting, especially if the economy turns down, Brexit negotiations don't yield what Brexiters expect and/or more Islamist terror outrages are staged. I think all of this and brexit itself are readily down to the difficult economic situation of the last few years. These sorts of things kick off when people are having a hard time of it. Unfortunately i can't see brexit making this any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Could be a good idea. It's a cause for concern what some of the elderly generation get up to. Look at this Davie fellow: https://rinxolsdefoc.wordpress.com/2016/06/19/dainty-davie-tendre-davie/ "It was down among my father’s pease and underneath the cherry trees. It was there he kissed me as he pleased; now he’s my only dainty Davie. Oh, leeze me on your curly pow, dainty Davie, dainty Davie." I've no idea what "leezing" is, but this Davie needs to keep his "curly pow" to himself at his age. My pow is no longer curly. I think it's lean on me your curly brow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 2 minutes ago, davieG said: My pow is no longer curly. I think it's lean on me your curly brow. Impressed at your Scottish-English translation....but only to be expected, I suppose, with a name like yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Impressed at your Scottish-English translation....but only to be expected, I suppose, with a name like yours. I guess so. Davie Google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 Benyon delivering some hilarious stuff - not a fan of his politics but a great speaker nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 3 hours ago, Swan Lesta said: Benyon delivering some hilarious stuff - not a fan of his politics but a great speaker nonetheless. Was an entertaining speech. Today was a good day for the Tories, Corbyn was back doing what he isn't comfortable at, taking interjections from people in a house rather than preaching to a crowd. It's in the Conservative parties interest (and the country of course IMHO) to keep him there as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: Could be a good idea. It's a cause for concern what some of the elderly generation get up to. Look at this Davie fellow: https://rinxolsdefoc.wordpress.com/2016/06/19/dainty-davie-tendre-davie/ "It was down among my father’s pease and underneath the cherry trees. It was there he kissed me as he pleased; now he’s my only dainty Davie. Oh, leeze me on your curly pow, dainty Davie, dainty Davie." I've no idea what "leezing" is, but this Davie needs to keep his "curly pow" to himself at his age. https://www.wordnik.com/words/leeze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 6 minutes ago, Buce said: https://www.wordnik.com/words/leeze Gay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: Was an entertaining speech. Today was a good day for the Tories, Corbyn was back doing what he isn't comfortable at, taking interjections from people in a house rather than preaching to a crowd. It's in the Conservative parties interest (and the country of course IMHO) to keep him there as long as possible. The Benyon speech was great but I really think this has been a terrible day for the Tories. The news on every channel on constant loop says no social care dementia tax but there will be a consultation still, no fox hunting vote, no Trump mention, no more grammar school increase, no triple lock, Hs2 go ahead development, means tested winter fuel allowance scrapped and still no deal with the DUP combined with no defined Brexit policy... but the kids still get to eat for free at school because we don't want to look like absolute mean brutal uncaring basterds. Honestly in a terrible way, thank goodness she got to rant on about common ground in relation to fighting terror and 'islamaphobia' - saved her bacon in all honesty because there's no real substance in anything that's come out today and Corbyn noted that their original manifesto has even been removed from the Tory website! The fact they picked for it to be delivered on Ascot day with the (crownless and robeless) queen running off to be with rich people combined with the terrible press of May going to speak at a 5K a head Tory donors get together spending more time there than she did at the fire site not talking to victims the other day wasn't well thought through - and the decision to buy 68 posh new apartments in Kensington to rehouse the fire victims will come to bite them on the ass from the right and the left. Bleak day for the Tories from what I'm watching - And don't even get me started on the media blackout on the day of rage protests! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oxlong Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 May's had to do the political equivalent of licking the sh1t off a butt plug Bad times for the PM ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 15 minutes ago, Strokes said: Gay Could be, but not in that song, I don't think. Your avatar suggests a strong interest in cocks. Don't fight it, Strokes. Express your true self. After converting publicly from Toryism to communism on FT, it can't be any more difficult for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said: Could be, but not in that song, I don't think. Your avatar suggests a strong interest in cocks. Don't fight it, Strokes. Express your true self. After converting publicly from Toryism to communism on FT, it can't be any more difficult for you. I've always had you down as an astute interpreter as well Alf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 41 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: The Benyon speech was great but I really think this has been a terrible day for the Tories. The news on every channel on constant loop says no social care dementia tax but there will be a consultation still, no fox hunting vote, no Trump mention, no more grammar school increase, no triple lock, Hs2 go ahead development, means tested winter fuel allowance scrapped and still no deal with the DUP combined with no defined Brexit policy... but the kids still get to eat for free at school because we don't want to look like absolute mean brutal uncaring basterds. Honestly in a terrible way, thank goodness she got to rant on about common ground in relation to fighting terror and 'islamaphobia' - saved her bacon in all honesty because there's no real substance in anything that's come out today and Corbyn noted that their original manifesto has even been removed from the Tory website! The fact they picked for it to be delivered on Ascot day with the (crownless and robeless) queen running off to be with rich people combined with the terrible press of May going to speak at a 5K a head Tory donors get together spending more time there than she did at the fire site not talking to victims the other day wasn't well thought through - and the decision to buy 68 posh new apartments in Kensington to rehouse the fire victims will come to bite them on the ass from the right and the left. Bleak day for the Tories from what I'm watching - And don't even get me started on the media blackout on the day of rage protests! We'll agree to disagree, the news being full of those policy being thrown in the bin can only be good - some might be under the impression they are still happening. Barely anyone appears to have turned up at the protest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 Very interesting from Nigel Dodds, says in his speech the vote to leave the EU should be interpreted as one to leave the single market and customs union. Means DUP probably would vote for hard Brexit With the Tories gone from the Uni towns and Hoey still there for Labour that means is possible they get it through the house. The Scottish Tories could end up being the main opposition to it and with where they are based it could come down to whether fishing waters are a part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderbyFox Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 This is up there with any Abbott interview, shambles from Boris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 21 June 2017 Share Posted 21 June 2017 13 minutes ago, EnderbyFox said: This is up there with any Abbott interview, shambles from Boris. It's bad but it's not that bad, the interview just reflects the situation an absolute shambles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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