General Election, June 8th

[ramboacdc]

2 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

I agree ISIS needs to be destroyed, like I said in the other thread, the root cause is Islam interpretation, and Islam itself, something which no-o e seems to want to discuss...... people are too frightened to question the islamic beliefs, at not wanting to be anti islamic or racist, which is sad, and the impact is the Rotherham paedo attacks where people were too scared to associate the paedos as a group of islamic males or gang, hence this has just went under the radar

people are too scared to ask people. one of my good friends is a muslim and he is the nicest man you could ever meet. i have literally grilled him on some points before and he has debated my back on them in a polite manner. i respect him for it. 

 

the point i would disagree with what you say however is the root cause is islam itself. Any religion i can think of usually is there to promote peace and islam is the same. Its the argument of "are the KKK/WBC all representative of christianity?" the short answer is no and these people who interpret the quoran in this way are not muslims. They are cowards and idiots hiding behind religion going "cant touch us, we are religious." I can only think of one religion in which suicide is an honourable thing to do and that is the samurai religion of Japan (i would say Shinto but i am pretty sure that is wrong) and the taking of anyone's life in any of these is forbidden. 

[Guest MattP]

Just now, ramboacdc said:

the point i would disagree with what you say however is the root cause is islam itself. Any religion i can think of usually is there to promote peace and islam is the same. Its the argument of "are the KKK/WBC all representative of christianity?" the short answer is no and these people who interpret the quoran in this way are not muslims. They are cowards and idiots hiding behind religion going "cant touch us, we are religious." I can only think of one religion in which suicide is an honourable thing to do and that is the samurai religion of Japan (i would say Shinto but i am pretty sure that is wrong) and the taking of anyone's life in any of these is forbidden. 

We long ago decided that wasn't the case and did something about it, we allow Wahhabist preachers to spread their poison around the country, if we want to show we are serious that this doesn't represent Islam then it's high time we all stopped allowing it to represent Islam.

 

I made the point in the other thread, we wouldn't allow the KKK to fund or preach in British churches, so why do we allow salafists to fund and preach in British mosques?

[ramboacdc]

Just now, MattP said:

We long ago decided that wasn't the case and did something about it, we allow Wahhabist preachers to spread their poison around the country, if we want to show we are serious that this doesn't represent Islam then it's high time we all stopped allowing it to represent Islam.

 

I made the point in the other thread, we wouldn't allow the KKK to fund or preach in British churches, so why do we allow salafists to fund and preach in British mosques?

but you still get the extreme britain first groups and the EDL who use religion in their own way to spread their hatred. all religion in my eyes is a form of brain washing. and you do still get people who stand on their soap box even in leicester city centre and shout crap through a mic about christianity. the difference is we tune it out because its a white guy/gal and just go "oh hes just talking bollocks." instant people see some brown fella's doing it "OMG THIS IS WRONG!"  its a fear caused by a change in normality. its different and your brain goes "that's different, i will listen now...hold up he's talking absolute shite!"

 

also i have never had a bloke knock at my door and ask me to join islam. I have had so many bloody leaflets about joining a christianity sect though. It is just because it is different and people choose not to ignore is as they do christianity. 

[Dr The Singh]

3 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

people are too scared to ask people. one of my good friends is a muslim and he is the nicest man you could ever meet. i have literally grilled him on some points before and he has debated my back on them in a polite manner. i respect him for it. 

 

the point i would disagree with what you say however is the root cause is islam itself. Any religion i can think of usually is there to promote peace and islam is the same. Its the argument of "are the KKK/WBC all representative of christianity?" the short answer is no and these people who interpret the quoran in this way are not muslims. They are cowards and idiots hiding behind religion going "cant touch us, we are religious." I can only think of one religion in which suicide is an honourable thing to do and that is the samurai religion of Japan (i would say Shinto but i am pretty sure that is wrong) and the taking of anyone's life in any of these is forbidden. 

I disagree, if any bible or holy book that can be logically interpretated to give action to people in a dangerous manner, is dangerous in itself.  There are many passages in the quron with the phase '...what your right hand posseses', now logic would say, and history would say, facts do say, that your right hand is the sword hand, and the Sura's Inthe Qur'an relate to material possession, or women, slaves etc.   This makes the Qur'an for me a very subjective thing, take what you will, 7th century Arabic life, when this was written is alot different to today, slavery and possession was part of life.

 

Luckily, majority of Muslims are good people and they tend to overlook those things.

[ramboacdc]

1 minute ago, Dr The Singh said:

I disagree, if any bible or holy book that can be logically interpretated to give action to people in a dangerous manner, is dangerous in itself.  There are many passages in the quron with the phase '...what your right hand posseses', now logic would say, and history would say, facts do say, that your right hand is the sword hand, and the Sura's Inthe Qur'an relate to material possession, or women, slaves etc.   This makes the Qur'an for me a very subjective thing, take what you will, 7th century Arabic life, when this was written is alot different to today, slavery and possession was part of life.

 

Luckily, majority of Muslims are good people and they tend to overlook those things.

a lot of holy books are very open ended. I take your point that could be your sword hand but it completely depends on how you look at it. I've read parts of the quran and the bible (hell i went a christian primary school for 7 years) and it is all open to interpretation. 

 

its like its ramadan now for them. It doesnt say you can't eat dawn to sunset. it just says " And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month" says bugger all about it having anything to do with the sun. 

[Alf Bentley]

7 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Germany is in many ways vastly loyal to German manufacturers, go there everyone have German made cars, appliances etc etc, they look after their own. That combined with the well respect products for exports makes them successful but they are a highly efficient, modernised industrial nation. Trying to sell a product to a German as a non German company is tough! I know!

 

Romania and Poland are ex soviet countries, they are growing quickly and some of our jobs have already shifted over there.

 

Again the Nordic countries work because their population is so low it made Socialist principles more manageable, cracks are starting to show now they are suffering mass immigration, now someone is going to have to pay for those extra people who will it be?

 

Whatever might happen now or in the future, Germany didn't build its current strong economy by cutting tax and cutting pay. It invested in skills (e.g. apprenticeships on a massive scale) and in technology. Shareholders - often institutional shareholders - accepted somewhat lower short-term returns in exchange for longer-term growth and viability. Companies there have much more intensive and positive relationships with banks and with unions, both of whom are often represented on boards.

 

My impression is that there are more cracks in British society than in Scandinavia, which still rates very high for living standards, quality of life and contentment in most surveys. Even if cracks are developing now, they didn't build decades of success by cutting pay and tax, either.

 

No doubt low pay will help Romania & Poland to grow quickly for a while, provided other factors like instability, corruption, low skills and lack of investment don't get in the way. But that won't work long-term, as there's always someone else that will acquire the ability to do some of the less skilled work for less. They'll need to invest the fruits of growth to move up to higher-value, higher-productivity work. 

 

I suppose the UK could have a future as a low-tax, low-pay, low-skills, low-productivity nation, undercutting our neighbours' social and employment conditions in order to make profits for our companies.....but what sort of a future is that? You'd be returning to a Dickensian society just to fund profits for corporations. And it would probably only work if the EU fell to bits, as they'd erect barriers against us otherwise - and we'd struggle to compete in global markets by trying to rival social conditions in Bangladesh.

 

Agree to disagree.  

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

but you still get the extreme britain first groups and the EDL who use religion in their own way to spread their hatred. all religion in my eyes is a form of brain washing. and you do still get people who stand on their soap box even in leicester city centre and shout crap through a mic about christianity. the difference is we tune it out because its a white guy/gal and just go "oh hes just talking bollocks." instant people see some brown fella's doing it "OMG THIS IS WRONG!"  its a fear caused by a change in normality. its different and your brain goes "that's different, i will listen now...hold up he's talking absolute shite!"

 

also i have never had a bloke knock at my door and ask me to join islam. I have had so many bloody leaflets about joining a christianity sect though. It is just because it is different and people choose not to ignore is as they do christianity. 

Out of interest, how many churches allow the EDL or Britain First to preach their version of Christianity to the congregation?

 

That's why there is no comparison, people would be rightly outraged if the above was happening, there seems to no outrage whatsoever when even more extreme people are preaching in Mosques. I don't know if you watched QT last night but an audience member brought a leaflet he was given on an open day at Didbury Mosque (the one where the Manchester bomber prayed) - he read it out and it was basically a tirade against Western liberals values.

 

That's on a open day, if a mosque can give that to an kuffir on an open day then imagine what that same mosque might be allowing to poison young minds? I'm sure we'll find out eventually Salman Abedi was poisioned there.

[ramboacdc]

Just now, MattP said:

Out of interest, how many churches allow the EDL or Britain First to preach their version of Christianity to the congregation?

 

That's why there is no comparison, people would be rightly outraged if the above was happening, there seems to no outrage whatsoever when even more extreme people are preaching in Mosques. I don't know if you watched QT last night but an audience member brought a leaflet he was given on an open day at Didbury Mosque (the one where the Manchester bomber prayed) - he read it out and it was basically a tirade against Western liberals values.

 

That's on a open day, if a mosque can give that to an kuffir on an open day then imagine what that same mosque might be allowing to poison young minds? I'm sure we'll find out eventually Salman Abedi was poisioned there.

before i read any further. How many mosques have you been in to know these things are being preached in these mosques? 

[Guest MattP]

Just now, ramboacdc said:

before i read any further. How many mosques have you been in to know these things are being preached in these mosques? 

None myself, although I'm not generally a regular attendee of any mosque, but around 110 are thought to be under Wahhabi/Salafi control, and receiving funding from Saudi or allied sources in 2015 - http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2015/06/28/why-wahhabi-salafist-mosques-should-be-banned-from-receiving-foreign-funding

 

The Saudi's also spend 2-3 billion per year on Wahhabist propaganda, I doubt any nation spends that on promoting Britain First style Christianity across the World.

[Dr The Singh]

10 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

a lot of holy books are very open ended. I take your point that could be your sword hand but it completely depends on how you look at it. I've read parts of the quran and the bible (hell i went a christian primary school for 7 years) and it is all open to interpretation. 

 

its like its ramadan now for them. It doesnt say you can't eat dawn to sunset. it just says " And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month" says bugger all about it having anything to do with the sun. 

So how would you look at it, I'm really Intrigued? 

 

You have clearly substantiated what I have said, the religions itself is the root, what they have written can be made dangerous, which I'm questioning why are people not questioning it.  Let's be open, there is stuff written, that needs to be either agreed there controversial or mistinterpretated, this will stop wahabism.  What I'm seeing is brushing controversy under the carpet allowing those controversy's to convert and radicalise.  And it's Muslims that need to do this, it's there religion, there Qur'an, there sunahs, there hadiths

[bovril]

46 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Romania and Poland are ex soviet countries,

Massively pedantic and irrelevant to the conversation, but no they are not.

[Dr The Singh]

38 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

people are too scared to ask people. one of my good friends is a muslim and he is the nicest man you could ever meet. i have literally grilled him on some points before and he has debated my back on them in a polite manner. i respect him for it. 

 

the point i would disagree with what you say however is the root cause is islam itself. Any religion i can think of usually is there to promote peace and islam is the same. Its the argument of "are the KKK/WBC all representative of christianity?" the short answer is no and these people who interpret the quoran in this way are not muslims. They are cowards and idiots hiding behind religion going "cant touch us, we are religious." I can only think of one religion in which suicide is an honourable thing to do and that is the samurai religion of Japan (i would say Shinto but i am pretty sure that is wrong) and the taking of anyone's life in any of these is forbidden. 

Do the KKK  know Jesus is brown?  It makes me laugh that people have turned this brown middle eastern looking guy, who if wore a turban would look Sikh, into this white, blue eyed Aryan.

 

The BNP make me laugh, St George was also brown

[Guest Foxin_mad]

5 minutes ago, bovril said:

Massively pedantic and irrelevant to the conversation, but no they are not.

Apologies my error. You are indeed correct.

[Finnegan]

4 minutes ago, bovril said:

Massively pedantic and irrelevant to the conversation, but no they are not.

 

I'd probably rather nitpick about the Eastern Bloc circa 1980 than have debate #6985645367 on Foxestalk about Islam, tbfh.

 

I'm so bored of reading that we should "come down harder on these people" from people with (understandably) no idea how we even do that or what it even means.

 

Equally boring is hearing that if we just pull all military intervention in the middle east it'll just magically stop. Think that horse has bolted, tbh, Jeremy.

[Thracian]

44 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

people are too scared to ask people. one of my good friends is a muslim and he is the nicest man you could ever meet. i have literally grilled him on some points before and he has debated my back on them in a polite manner. i respect him for it. 

 

the point i would disagree with what you say however is the root cause is islam itself. Any religion i can think of usually is there to promote peace and islam is the same. Its the argument of "are the KKK/WBC all representative of christianity?" the short answer is no and these people who interpret the quoran in this way are not muslims. They are cowards and idiots hiding behind religion going "cant touch us, we are religious." I can only think of one religion in which suicide is an honourable thing to do and that is the samurai religion of Japan (i would say Shinto but i am pretty sure that is wrong) and the taking of anyone's life in any of these is forbidden. 

All religious doctrine is manipulated by man and some mainstream religions are only about power/control and/or peace on their terms only.

 

Consequently so much of what is done - or has been done - in the name of religion is utterly abominable and indefensible in human terms.

 

And the number of people who've lost their lives on the altar of religion should shame any God whose name was used as the excuse.           

[Dr The Singh]

5 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I'd probably rather nitpick about the Eastern Bloc circa 1980 than have debate #6985645367 on Foxestalk about Islam, tbfh.

 

I'm so bored of reading that we should "come down harder on these people" from people with (understandably) no idea how we even do that or what it even means.

 

Equally boring is hearing that if we just pull all military intervention in the middle east it'll just magically stop. Think that horse has bolted, tbh, Jeremy.

If your bored, you know what you can do instead.......,

[Finnegan]

Just now, Dr The Singh said:

If your bored, you know what you can do instead.......,

 

I'm sorry, Singh, I'm a taken man these days.

[Dr The Singh]

Just now, Finnegan said:

 

I'm sorry, Singh, I'm a taken man these days.

So?  It's not like we're gonna get married and have kids.

[Finnegan]

[Thracian]

1 hour ago, ramboacdc said:

but you still get the extreme britain first groups and the EDL who use religion in their own way to spread their hatred. all religion in my eyes is a form of brain washing. and you do still get people who stand on their soap box even in leicester city centre and shout crap through a mic about christianity. the difference is we tune it out because its a white guy/gal and just go "oh hes just talking bollocks." instant people see some brown fella's doing it "OMG THIS IS WRONG!"  its a fear caused by a change in normality. its different and your brain goes "that's different, i will listen now...hold up he's talking absolute shite!"

 

also i have never had a bloke knock at my door and ask me to join islam. I have had so many bloody leaflets about joining a christianity sect though. It is just because it is different and people choose not to ignore is as they do christianity. 

You don't need anyone to "spread the hatred" when kids bodies are lying in the morgue. There's no defending anyone acting like that. 

And this has nothing to do with black or white either.

Islamic extremism is a problem in other countries as well as ours, including ones with predominently black populations.

As for "Britain first",  Britain should be first for the British government. It's what they're responsible before anything else.          

[ramboacdc]

1 minute ago, Thracian said:

You don't need anyone to "spread the hatred" when kids bodies are lying in the morgue. There's no defending anyone acting like that. 

And this has nothing to do with black or white either.

Islamic extremism is a problem in other countries as well as ours, including ones with predominently black populations.

As for "Britain first",  Britain should be first for the British government. It's what they're responsible before anything else.          

and last time i checked. 5% of britain is british muslims. and the government stands by them as they know its not every mosque that wants to blow up kids, its not every person from syria, lybia, turkey that wants to spread hate. They know its a few rogue nutters who aint got nothing to do with islam. by your logic there all Catholics are members of the IRA. 

[ramboacdc]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

None myself, although I'm not generally a regular attendee of any mosque, but around 110 are thought to be under Wahhabi/Salafi control, and receiving funding from Saudi or allied sources in 2015 - http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2015/06/28/why-wahhabi-salafist-mosques-should-be-banned-from-receiving-foreign-funding

 

The Saudi's also spend 2-3 billion per year on Wahhabist propaganda, I doubt any nation spends that on promoting Britain First style Christianity across the World.

i accept your point about the saudis but looking through that source he gives facts about how many are this without sourcing it himself. 

 

and it depends what you mean by "propaganda." if the saudi's spend that much just on holding onto power in their country so be it. But if you look into the definition of propaganda, america would be rather high with its christian propaganda. The one thing i love about this country is i never feel like im having religion rammed down my throat. In america i definitely do. 

1 hour ago, Dr The Singh said:

So how would you look at it, I'm really Intrigued? 

 

You have clearly substantiated what I have said, the religions itself is the root, what they have written can be made dangerous, which I'm questioning why are people not questioning it.  Let's be open, there is stuff written, that needs to be either agreed there controversial or mistinterpretated, this will stop wahabism.  What I'm seeing is brushing controversy under the carpet allowing those controversy's to convert and radicalise.  And it's Muslims that need to do this, it's there religion, there Qur'an, there sunahs, there hadiths

without knowing the full source of that right hand quote i wouldn't be able to really say. But you are correct in what you say. The problem with faith is people just go "it is written, this is true" and no one goes "but why?" It is why i believe religion is outdated in this century. It worked in the days when we needed to set rules down but not in the world we are now. 

[ealingfox]

Sure one of the party leaders was in Saudi Arabia selling them weapons literally weeks ago....

[Thracian]

11 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

and last time i checked. 5% of britain is british muslims. and the government stands by them as they know its not every mosque that wants to blow up kids, its not every person from syria, lybia, turkey that wants to spread hate. They know its a few rogue nutters who aint got nothing to do with islam. by your logic there all Catholics are members of the IRA. 

The government might be right and then again they might be wrong in respect of some of those 5%. As for actions related to mosques has anyone suggested any has an administration that wants to blow up kids, though even one would represent a serious situation? But that has nothing to do with the aims of Islam and the people concerned with spreading the word and strength of Islam.

My logic has nothing to do with suggesting or believing in any way that all Catholics are members of the IRA.

But some are and were and some wreaked havoc not only in this country but in a business run by a relative in Belfast which cost the life of a staff member. Further evidence that our government should accept its responsibilities concerning who should be welcomed here based on their background and compatibility.

                

 

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

i accept your point about the saudis but looking through that source he gives facts about how many are this without sourcing it himself. 

 

and it depends what you mean by "propaganda." if the saudi's spend that much just on holding onto power in their country so be it. But if you look into the definition of propaganda, america would be rather high with its christian propaganda.

I've not seen any evidence that the US government funds Christian propaganda (source?) but even if they are I doubt it would be a version of it that is barely past the stone age. More to the point even if they did it shouldn't have any baring whatsoever on our domestic policy.

 

You don't seem to be able to take in the fact that it isn't "Islam" Saudi Arabia is spreading, it's the Wahhabist sect of it, something really worth reading about, it's a branch of the religion the vast majority of Sunni and Shia find vile, totally abhorrent and yet we have opened our doors to it, it really is crazy.

 

I'd be absolutely delighted if a nation started to spread Ahamdiyya Islamic theology across the World, it would be something wonderful, the total opposite to Salafism and it would show the religion at it's very best rather than it's very worst.

 

We are not going to get anywhere in a debate about Islamism unless we start talking about the different sects, it's numerous different religions inside a religion, the way we talk about Islamism now is so asinine it's akin to talking about the problems in Northern Ireland as "Christian ones" whilst refusing the recognise the difference between Protestants and Catholics.

 

I don't blame anyone for not knowing these things, we were never taught them and it's only something I've taken an interest in since I joined the Henry Jackson Society, but it's something extremely important, the young Muslim girl was brilliant on QT last night and exceptionally brave given what happened to the Glasgow shopkeeper a couple of years ago.