DJ Barry Hammond Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 8 hours ago, Rincewind said: A fair society is delusional?. I wonder who says that the most? Possibly, unfortuantely, when you consider; To make things "fair" those deemed "unfair" would lose out No one likes losing out, so this cross section would rile against these moves Given this cross section is likely to have both wealth and a greater influence - they probably have the power to suppress movements Everyone's opinion of "fair" differs. Even if a fair society was achieved in the view of one person, another person may view things very differently To even get to a fair society... you'd have to be unfair to a lot of people for a long period of time. Apologies, a lot of this is samantics... and it doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for a "fairer society" where we can see clear injustice, but unfortunately the ultimate utopia is many, many, lifetimes beyond us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 NP. DJ You have basically said what I was getting at. those who have it fairer will do what they can to put people off even thinking about fairness can be acheived, hence the 'waste of time even trying, attitude. My thinking in no need for a Corbyn type in a fair society is like the work place. If a company offers a decent wage bonuses incentives holidays etc then why do they need a union. 100 years ago conditions were terrible which is why the unions were formed so as to give the worker. Admittedly they have now grown some say too powerful but there is still a need as not all bosses or governments offer the same. There is also the 'if you dont want to do the job for that wage there are plenty that will' creeping back in as we have seen with work schemes. 3 months work then sorry we do not need anyone atm. Months time they restart. I agree it may seem delusional to some but for someone choosing between a pound in the elrctricity or a pound meal that delusion enables them to look forward to another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 On 6/19/2017 at 10:17, davieG said: It's not really a new political movement rather a disparate and desperate bunch of people who think they all believe in the same needs and wants but I suspect underneath there will be vast differences of opinion. As for the political scene 40 years ago it was more or less two groups of intransigents that brought us down to our knees and left us with the Blair years (ok a bit of a simplification) I fear this current group of desperate people will be easily manipulated into a new group of intransigents by outsiders seeking to cause mayhem and will come head on with the equivalent right wing politicos and nothing much will be achieved, there will still be those with so much money they don't know what to do with it and an ongoing .underclass 1 hour ago, DJ Barry Hammond said: Possibly, unfortuantely, when you consider; To make things "fair" those deemed "unfair" would lose out No one likes losing out, so this cross section would rile against these moves Given this cross section is likely to have both wealth and a greater influence - they probably have the power to suppress movements Everyone's opinion of "fair" differs. Even if a fair society was achieved in the view of one person, another person may view things very differently To even get to a fair society... you'd have to be unfair to a lot of people for a long period of time. Apologies, a lot of this is samantics... and it doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for a "fairer society" where we can see clear injustice, but unfortunately the ultimate utopia is many, many, lifetimes beyond us. 2 minutes ago, Rincewind said: NP. DJ You have basically said what I was getting at. those who have it fairer will do what they can to put people off even thinking about fairness can be acheived, hence the 'waste of time even trying, attitude. My thinking in no need for a Corbyn type in a fair society is like the work place. If a company offers a decent wage bonuses incentives holidays etc then why do they need a union. 100 years ago conditions were terrible which is why the unions were formed so as to give the worker. Admittedly they have now grown some say too powerful but there is still a need as not all bosses or governments offer the same. There is also the 'if you dont want to do the job for that wage there are plenty that will' creeping back in as we have seen with work schemes. 3 months work then sorry we do not need anyone atm. Months time they restart. I agree it may seem delusional to some but for someone choosing between a pound in the elrctricity or a pound meal that delusion enables them to look forward to another day. Isn't this along the lines of what I posted, that you seem to completely misinterpret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 Here's a simpler explanation of the election: May pissed off the elderly, who didn't bother to vote, and the young turned up and did, further ruining May's election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 Interesting to see that huge amounts of young people stopped turning out to vote in the early 90's. Can someone with a bit of political knowledge from that era take a stab at what made young people become so disenfranchised / disconnected from politics that they went from a 65% turnout early 90's to lower than 40% mid 2000's? Was there anything in particular or just a failure on the government's part to engage young people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 3 minutes ago, daz*dsb said: Interesting to see that huge amounts of young people stopped turning out to vote in the early 90's. Can someone with a bit of political knowledge from that era take a stab at what made young people become so disenfranchised / disconnected from politics that they went from a 65% turnout early 90's to lower than 40% mid 2000's? Was there anything in particular or just a failure on the government's part to engage young people? No one promised them loads of free stuff pretty much sums it up. Well the Lib Dems did, but then obviously having got into office then had to cancel it as the cash wasn't there to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 12 minutes ago, MattP said: No one promised them loads of free stuff pretty much sums it up. Well the Lib Dems did, but then obviously having got into office then had to cancel it as the cash wasn't there to do it. Were governments promising them "free stuff" before, then? And of course, this is built on the predication that young folks only want "free stuff" and have zero other political motives in mind in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 Just now, leicsmac said: Were governments promising them "free stuff" before, then? And of course, this is built on the predication that young folks only want "free stuff" and have zero other political motives in mind in the first place. Apart from the Lib Dems no. The Corbyn pretty much dropped acid on that manifesto as he knew he couldn't win and they flew out for him. He's got the support unconditionally now though so I'd expect him to roll back and make the next manifesto a little more realistic and serious as he'll actually have a chance of winning. In a weird way I hope he does, we've already made our plans so he can't get his grubby hands on anything we own anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 7 minutes ago, MattP said: Apart from the Lib Dems no. The Corbyn pretty much dropped acid on that manifesto as he knew he couldn't win and they flew out for him. He's got the support unconditionally now though so I'd expect him to roll back and make the next manifesto a little more realistic and serious as he'll actually have a chance of winning. In a weird way I hope he does, we've already made our plans so he can't get his grubby hands on anything we own anyway. Then I don't see that as a reason why the turnout dropped. Perhaps it was just general boredom/apathy, which is pretty criminal, really. Regarding Corbyn, given how the entire UK political rule book has been turned upside down in the last twelve months I wouldn't want to put money down on anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 28 minutes ago, daz*dsb said: Interesting to see that huge amounts of young people stopped turning out to vote in the early 90's. Can someone with a bit of political knowledge from that era take a stab at what made young people become so disenfranchised / disconnected from politics that they went from a 65% turnout early 90's to lower than 40% mid 2000's? Was there anything in particular or just a failure on the government's part to engage young people? Looks to me like it was a global disconnected people and I think that did reflect most people's growing mistrust of politicians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 2 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Then I don't see that as a reason why the turnout dropped. Perhaps it was just general boredom/apathy, which is pretty criminal, really. Regarding Corbyn, given how the entire UK political rule book has been turned upside down in the last twelve months I wouldn't want to put money down on anything. No I wouldn't, genuine chance he could win. I'm already putting the feelers out with my friends in Texas in case, could be with you soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 31 minutes ago, MattP said: No one promised them loads of free stuff pretty much sums it up. Well the Lib Dems did, but then obviously having got into office then had to cancel it as the cash wasn't there to do it. Rather than the elderly usually being the beneficiaries of almost all government decisions? But obviously it's only the dastardly young who vote on what's best for them..... Anyway, seperate point but: Leak shows 'devastating' impact of planned NHS cuts in London https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/20/leak-shows-devastating-impact-of-planned-nhs-cuts-in-london Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 8 minutes ago, MattP said: No I wouldn't, genuine chance he could win. I'm already putting the feelers out with my friends in Texas in case, could be with you soon! Might want to be careful, some areas of the South are a bit extreme even for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 Just now, leicsmac said: Might want to be careful, some areas of the South are a bit extreme even for you! We'll soon see about that On the subject the young people I have spoken to have given some strange reasons for ticking the Labour ballot box, I've heard a 31 year old say he voted for him because he was promising to cancel his own student debt and a couple have said they thought they were campaigning to stay in the EU. Mostly off Facebook posts, vital the right get the memes going next time, they are crucial these days. So maybe across the nation people didn't actually realise what they voting for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: We'll soon see about that On the subject the young people I have spoken to have given some strange reasons for ticking the Labour ballot box, I've heard a 31 year old say he voted for him because he was promising to cancel his own student debt and a couple have said they thought they were campaigning to stay in the EU. Mostly off Facebook posts, vital the right get the memes going next time, they are crucial these days. So maybe across the nation people didn't actually realise what they voting for. In this "information-heavy" age, I think it is very easy for a message to get clouded and twisted, so I don't disagree. Seriously man, you remember some of the stuff Ted Cruz said when he was a candidate? Imagine that, written large. It's...interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 1 hour ago, MattP said: We'll soon see about that On the subject the young people I have spoken to have given some strange reasons for ticking the Labour ballot box, I've heard a 31 year old say he voted for him because he was promising to cancel his own student debt and a couple have said they thought they were campaigning to stay in the EU. Mostly off Facebook posts, vital the right get the memes going next time, they are crucial these days. So maybe across the nation people didn't actually realise what they voting for. There were plenty of memes from the right this time round. Don't worry, they were just as shit as the ones from the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: There were plenty of memes from the right this time round. Don't worry, they were just as shit as the ones from the left. Really? I barely saw one and I'm numerous political Facebook groups. You couldn't move for them in the great meme war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 1 hour ago, MattP said: Really? I barely saw one and I'm numerous political Facebook groups. You couldn't move for them in the great meme war. Yep, the ones I saw were just as lacking in accuracy and basic grammar as their left wing counterparts. Their trouble was the same as the Tories had themselves though, in that they were basically just attacking Corbyn and didn't actually offer the people seeing them any positive reason to vote Tory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Yep, the ones I saw were just as lacking in accuracy and basic grammar as their left wing counterparts. Their trouble was the same as the Tories had themselves though, in that they were basically just attacking Corbyn and didn't actually offer the people seeing them any positive reason to vote Tory. I agree. Baffling we didn't speak about economics and spending looking back with what Labour were offering, no idea why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 19 minutes ago, MattP said: We'll soon see about that On the subject the young people I have spoken to have given some strange reasons for ticking the Labour ballot box, I've heard a 31 year old say he voted for him because he was promising to cancel his own student debt and a couple have said they thought they were campaigning to stay in the EU. Mostly off Facebook posts, vital the right get the memes going next time, they are crucial these days. So maybe across the nation people didn't actually realise what they voting for. Like the Brexit vote, you mean? Fvcking priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 5 minutes ago, Buce said: Like the Brexit vote, you mean? Fvcking priceless. Glad you spotted it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 37 minutes ago, MattP said: We'll soon see about that On the subject the young people I have spoken to have given some strange reasons for ticking the Labour ballot box, I've heard a 31 year old say he voted for him because he was promising to cancel his own student debt and a couple have said they thought they were campaigning to stay in the EU. Mostly off Facebook posts, vital the right get the memes going next time, they are crucial these days. So maybe across the nation people didn't actually realise what they voting for. People should realise that even when they know what their voting for they aren't always going to get it even if they back the winning side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 There was some discussion going on a few pages back / last night and my phone logged out b2b couldn't remember my password so couldn't reply at the time... BUT... I think (most likely) it was Matt (and Strokes) who were talking about people voting for Labour like they were going to back out of Brexit and if people really cared they should have gone for Lib Dem as they were promising another referendum. I was 100% aware that Labour were still going to push ahead with Brexit (something I don't want but I'm willing to accept, begrudgingly) but I much preferred Corbyn's approach of treating the EU as our allies and remembering they're our neighbours and friends as opposed to May's rhetoric about 'no deal bla bla bla' and being a 'bloody difficult woman'. Voting for Lib Dems would have been a dead-vote for me (and everyone else) and they were never a realistic choice for people wanting out of Brexit as they were never, ever, in a million years going to take a big enough slice of the pie to be relevant in this GE. Labour were putting forward a lot of other things I liked and a more reasonable, measured and amicable approach to Brexit which I also liked even though I'd like no Brexit at all. Saying that people didn't care enough about Brexit isn't a fair assessment at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 1 hour ago, daz*dsb said: Interesting to see that huge amounts of young people stopped turning out to vote in the early 90's. Can someone with a bit of political knowledge from that era take a stab at what made young people become so disenfranchised / disconnected from politics that they went from a 65% turnout early 90's to lower than 40% mid 2000's? Was there anything in particular or just a failure on the government's part to engage young people? Aceeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 20 June 2017 Share Posted 20 June 2017 7 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said: Aceeed! I see where you're coming from but getting high didn't stop people being politically involved in the 70's! The government introducing things like the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 probably didn't help! For anyone wanting to know more: https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/anti-rave-act-protests-20th-anniversary-204 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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