A New Political Movement or Uprising?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Webbo said:

Tell that to the people of Venezuela.

Im getting annoyed with venezuela being used as the comparison every time left wing ideas are floated. 

 

This graph, from the economist, shows how european gdp very closely matches the number of left wing governments in power across the continent - the further left the eu is, the better it's economic performance.

 

 

[Thracian]

5 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Inequality gap between rich and poor in UK to be at biggest since Margaret Thatcher was in power

The poorest households will see their income fall by 2% - whereas the richest will see a mammoth 5% rise

 

 

 

Edit.... its not just wealth...

 

Lifespan gap 'widening between rich and poor'

 

Why does ANYONE (excluding the super rich) not find this offensive?

Because so many people voluntarily ruin their own health despite all advice meant to help them.

 

We also import disease with a reckessness that is beyond belief with more "poor" being imported than "rich" , making the trends inevitable..   

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/615109/London-TB-capital-Europe-mass-migration-poverty.

 

http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1450002/3/fmb%2E14%2E110-1.pdf

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

Apologies for the language in this but it demonstrates the spirit of the thread and what I'm noticing:

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

 

This guy needs to run for office.

28 minutes ago, Thracian said:

 

I don't see why anyone hard-working people should pay for wasters.

 

As for the "decent human beings" you mention, I doubt you've met many to the point you'd call them friends. 

 

Yes, I still think that, deep down, some of them are "decent".

 

But they've often had an appalling upbringing, have been schooled in the art of getting something for nothing by way of theft, acting as "fences", fiddling the system in various, sometimes quite ingenious, ways, and countless other things. 

 

Anyone who talks of these people getting minimum benefits is naive beyond belief... they're into all sorts and a whole lot I still don't know about.

 

It's them (the supposedly oppressed an unemployable) against us and that's the truth.

 

I still care because I honestly believe most have mental problems if not illness (I'm not sure of the difference) and they've suffered desperately due to the culture in which they've grown up.

 

May those who sanction the tackling of mental problems be blessed because there's no changing these people that I can see. And the figure I gave you was seriously conservative.

 

I just feel ashamed at wasting it all and doing no good whatsoever.

 

             

 

 

I have worked both as a benefit assessment officer and a benefit fraud investigator. The right massively exaggerates the issue of fecklessness. They do exist, of course, but their numbers are pretty insignificant. The VAST majority of people receiving benefits work. They work hard but are not paid enough to live on by companies making multi-million pound profits. This countries social problems are caused entirely by deregulation and putting profit before people. The 'somebody has to pay for it line' used so often by the right as a last gasp argument ignores the fact thatcas the fifth richest country in the world there is more than enough money in our economy to have everything we want. It just isn't shared across the nation, instead being captured and held by ever-shrinking numbers at the top. After the global crash and failure of austerity politics to adequately deal with the reality of the aftermath, neo-liberal economics is dead in the water.

[LiberalFox]

I hate Thracians line of thinking. So ignorant and so selfish. 

[Thracian]

33 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

This guy needs to run for office.

I have worked both as a benefit assessment officer and a benefit fraud investigator. The right massively exaggerates the issue of fecklessness. They do exist, of course, but their numbers are pretty insignificant. The VAST majority of people receiving benefits work. They work hard but are not paid enough to live on by companies making multi-million pound profits. This countries social problems are caused entirely by deregulation and putting profit before people. The 'somebody has to pay for it line' used so often by the right as a last gasp argument ignores the fact thatcas the fifth richest country in the world there is more than enough money in our economy to have everything we want. It just isn't shared across the nation, instead being captured and held by ever-shrinking numbers at the top. After the global crash and failure of austerity politics to adequately deal with the reality of the aftermath, neo-liberal economics is dead in the water.

Perhaps you should get a taste of reality. What many people get paid in benefit is not what they actually put in their pocket each week. Nor does what they receive necessarily equate with what they acquire for that money.

 

Oh yes,  the hardship is real enough come the week's end. But not just because of the benefit levels.

 

On top of existential bills there might well be the moneylender to pay, the fines for various offences, neighbours to pay back, drugs to find, mobile phone charges and prsents to get for birthdays.  

 

But that might well be offset by a whole lot of other things I could detail but won't. Some of them inconsequential but others quite lucrative.

 

It's so easy to throw away remarks referring to profits.

 

A friend of mine employs 40 people at £30,000/£50,000 a year and, with office rents, vehicles, insurance, and other expenses probably needs to generate close to £2million a year in business before drawing his own salary.

 

Would you take that risk on?  Or that responsibility? 

 

If not just try it for a while and see how rosy it really is. .    

 

 

 

.    

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, Indeedy said:

Too much filthy tory sentiment in this thread for this socialist.  I'm off to clean myself.

 

Corbyn is integrity, Corbyn is truth

Have a nice day.

[nnfox]

I'm not sure we are seeing any grand revolution here.  I do think there will be a revolution in the way politics are conducted though.

 

Do we need a socialist state?  No.  The principle of capatalism works just fine (although I accept we don't have a perfect model).  The idea that if you work hard then you can get ahead is one that should incentivise people to strive for a better life. 

 

When it comes to government, the people who want to run for these powerful position ultimately want one thing - to be in charge.  As the saying goes "It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government will always get in."  So whether it is TM or JC at the helm, they will both make decisions that will be questioned and unpopular.  One thing is for certain:  We will have a Labour government again, followed by a Conservative government and it will likely change hands every 10-15 years.

 

So what has happened here, now?  What we have is something of a perfect storm and it isn't about what is being said, it has more to do with how it is being said.

 

Times have changed and society has changed.  Politics has been slow to catch up.  I firmly believe that if you go back 30-40 years and beyond there was a sense of trust with politicians (albeit often misplaced).  Think about it, the politicians showed you what they wanted you to see.  There was just three or four TV channels and the radio as well as the printed press.  Access to the amount of data that the internet contains and 24hr TV News channels was not comprehendable back then.  People went to work, paid their taxes and that was that.  Yes, people moaned about paying tax but who doesn't?  It was never questioned really as to how the government spent the money - they just did, and that was that, it was accepted.  Now though, increassed access to facts and statistics, makes people question what is going on and politicians become ever more accountable.  Their policies come under more and more scrutiny.

 

Now add social media to the mix.  Here is a platform where it is free to post your views and opinions and free to listen to what people say.  And it is very influential, especially to those that use it the most.  Facebook started in 2004, meaning that someone who was 5 back then, is now old enough to vote.  There is a huge number of people who now don't know what life was like without social media and those people, growing up in a world of mass data, big data are starting to ask questions.  The politicians need to be there to give answers.

 

So enter charisma and charm.  The ability to speak to the common folk.  Whether he did it deliberately or not, JC is a good talker.  He naturally uses language that connects with people and people listen to him.  In his case, it becomes a very one sided argument becuase his main opposition, Mrs. May is totally devoid of all charm and charisma.  I accept that she is an introvert, but I believe that you have to go where your voters are.  Whilst she is hiding away from the spotlight because she is "not a showy politician", Corbyn had an open goal in front of him.  Young people, disillusioned with the world and looking for a leader had only one figure to rally behind.  They became engaged, shared and reposted content and importantly, when it came to it, voted.

 

Add to the mix the spotlight of how the austerity cuts have worked out over the last three quarters of a decade and all of a sudden the tories are on the back foot.  Policing for example was brought under the spotlight amongst the terrorist attacks.  Warning after warning was given how the cuts were damaging our security, yet they press ahead regardless.  20% cuts to the policing budget would never solve anything.  In 2010 policing accounted for 1% of total government spending.  Meaning a 20% cut to that budget - catastrophic for police and the public - saved the government 20p out of £100.

 

People have had enough of the political elite and their sense of entitlement and sheer arrogance.  People now have the tools to question it and make their voices heard.  Leaders of the future need to rip up the old rule book, because if they want to be in charge, then they have to get out there in the trenches and show that they care.  Whilst Cameron had a certain amount of charisma that could paper over the cracks, May has none and the walls are now bare.  She might be a strong, "bloody difficult" woman, but as demonstrated, if you lack charm or the common touch, you lose.  She is dead in the water now and incapable of rescuing the situation.

[lifted*fox]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Im getting annoyed with venezuela being used as the comparison every time left wing ideas are floated. 

 

This graph, from the economist, shows how european gdp very closely matches the number of left wing governments in power across the continent - the further left the eu is, the better it's economic performance.

 

 

 

People using Venezuela as a counter don't realise how ****ing dumb it makes them sound. It's such a weak argument. 

 

(no offense Webbo...) 

[Thracian]

7 hours ago, ozleicester said:

 yep coz all poor people are Alcoholics and Drug addicts.  ...

 

I agree with the compulsory retirement.... (i also think you shouldnt be able to vote after age 65)

 

Oh i see the young and poor are also lazy...

 

If we make "working" a viable option, we can rebuild manufacture, if we pay people fairly and employ them, they wont need to buy cheap stuff.

 

You really live in dreamland. Rebuild manufacturing at £10 an hour minimum and make things at twice the cost others do? Get real.

 

As for building quality there's no big demand and won't be while all the students live in rented accommodation and many of the working people too.

 

Cheap , cheerful and quickly disposable is what's wanted. And robot assembled given the expectations you'd be looking for.   

 

But you'll make a good Corbynite, that's for sure. Retire and deny the vote to anyone who might keep the young socialists out of work and influence an election.

 

The stuff of a real revolutionary that,

 

There's actually plenty of money to be earned by the young so there's no real need for the "young and poor" you mention to be anything but a myth.

 

My youngest does 70-80 hours a week in the summer, and loves what that can buy.

 

Lots of jobs going in the same business for those who roll their sleeves up and defy any suggestion of laziness.     

[Webbo]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

Im getting annoyed with venezuela being used as the comparison every time left wing ideas are floated. 

 

This graph, from the economist, shows how european gdp very closely matches the number of left wing governments in power across the continent - the further left the eu is, the better it's economic performance.

 

 

It all depends on interpretation. Looking at that it seems there were a lot of left wing govts during the boom, pissing money up the wall and  then the crash happened and therefore they've  been voted out. I know you won't accept that interpretation but it's certainly what happened in this country.

[Thracian]

7 hours ago, ozleicester said:

 yep coz all poor people are Alcoholics and Drug addicts.  ...

 

I agree with the compulsory retirement.... (i also think you shouldnt be able to vote after age 65)

 

Oh i see the young and poor are also lazy...

 

If we make "working" a viable option, we can rebuild manufacture, if we pay people fairly and employ them, they wont need to buy cheap stuff.

 

You really live in dreamland. Rebuild manufacturing and make things at twice the cost others do? Get real.

 

As for building quality there's no big demand and won't be while all the students live in rented accommodation and many of the working people too.

 

Cheap , cheerful and quickly disposable is what's wanted.

 

You'll make a good Corbynite, that's for sure. Retire and deny the vote to anyone who might keep the young socialists out of work and influence an election.

 

The stuff of a real revolutionary that,

 

There's actually plenty of money to be earned by the young so there's no real need for the "young and poor" you mention to be anything but a myth.

 

My youngest does 70-80 hours a week in the summer, and loves what that can buy.

 

Lots of jobs going in the same business for those who roll their sleeves up and defy any suggestion of laziness.     

[Thracian]

It is ironic given the number of disciples singing the praises of socialist idealogy that in the Russia once of Karl Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and all those game-changing revolutionaries the wealth seems far from redistributed!

 

       http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2451854/35-cent-household-wealth-Russia-belongs-just-110-billionaires.html

[Thracian]

And, would you believe, it's not much different in Communist China:

 

Haha, maybe the phrase, "everyone's equal" has it's own meaning in the East.   

 

 

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1882994-richest-in-china-are-connected-with-the-communist-party/

 

 

http://theconversation.com/communist-fat-cats-forbes-counts-168-billionaires-in-china-19440

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Great Boos Up]

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 20:09, LiberalFox said:

It's weird how people are openly saying they would prefer to live in Cuba or Greece. 

 

People actually want to vote for poverty?

I've read most of your posts and never thought I'd rep you as it seems your are on a football forum with a political agenda.

But good point made how we are very lucky to be here. Personally I don't want to share my good fortune with the entire world. This thread reminded of quote by Winston Churchill but could have been said by anybody;

" If your not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if your not a conservative at 40 you have no brain..."

Very simplistic I know but I'm old now and the new political movement is the young voting in record numbers and I'm pleased about that.

[Guest]

Trouble is half of all wealth in this country is owned by the top 10 most of which fall within the older age bracket that bought property at low prices in comparison. The older voters here seem to be having a very tough time understanding the reality of life now for the young. 

[Guest MattP]

Genuinely hope these marches start and Labour get behind them (McDonnell won't be able to help himself).

 

If they do and end in trouble which is highly probable, call an election. 

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

Trouble is half of all wealth in this country is owned by the top 10 most of which fall within the older age bracket that bought property at low prices in comparison. The older voters here seem to be having a very tough time understanding the reality of life now for the young. 

Top ten of?

[Guest]

Top 10% - I was on my phone

[Rincewind]

2 hours ago, Great Boos Up said:

I've read most of your posts and never thought I'd rep you as it seems your are on a football forum with a political agenda.

But good point made how we are very lucky to be here. Personally I don't want to share my good fortune with the entire world. This thread reminded of quote by Winston Churchill but could have been said by anybody;

" If your not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if your not a conservative at 40 you have no brain..."

Very simplistic I know but I'm old now and the new political movement is the young voting in record numbers and I'm pleased about that.

The ones who think they will never be in poverty vote for it indirectly for others. Those that repeat the old 'Workers and shirkers' line should think up something for themselves because it has been done to death since Tony Blair first used by the Mail and Sun. They should speak to people that work helping those in poverty. Many of those living rough are ex military. Many of those receiving benefits are in work. Those in power have little understanding of what it is like to struggle on little or no income often relying on food banks.

Dont even know why I bother to reply. It is always ridiculed and am accused of being jealous or envy.

[theessexfox]

Just thought I'd chip in and say that this is one of the most vibrant and diverse political discussions I have read/heard in a long time. I said on here a while ago about the simplistic and superficial nature of much political discourse in the UK, so it is nice to read through a proper debate from a range of ideological perspectives about not just certain single issues, but the very values and ideologies in our society. 

[Kopfkino]

3 hours ago, toddybad said:

Trouble is half of all wealth in this country is owned by the top 10 most of which fall within the older age bracket that bought property at low prices in comparison. The older voters here seem to be having a very tough time understanding the reality of life now for the young. 

 

Yet it's considered preposterous that these people would have to sell that property in which they have so much wealth tied up to pay for their care. Instead it seems that the view is it's acceptable to tax the young to pay for the care of people sitting in houses worth many hundreds of thousands of pounds. And it most certainly wasn't just the elderly or traditional Conservative voters that thought this. Bizarre really.

[Strokes]

21 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

Yet it's considered preposterous that these people would have to sell that property in which they have so much wealth tied up to pay for their care. Instead it seems that the view is it's acceptable to tax the young to pay for the care of people sitting in houses worth many hundreds of thousands of pounds. And it most certainly wasn't just the elderly or traditional Conservative voters that thought this. Bizarre really.

Come on, the top 10% would never have to sell their home to pay for care, it's the small assets that get gobbled up by that policy. People with 200k - 400k houses would be left with a bag of nuts to hand out at the funeral. 

Im not saying we shouldn't pay for care but a death/inheritance tax that smashes working class people is an horrendous policy. 

There is no point in me accumulating wealth now if I can't give it to my kids/grandchildren, I might as well not bother.

[ozleicester]

@Thracian your hatred, fear and sweeping generalisations about the poor, is not just sad and disturbing. it Is appalling, Im not sure what has happened to you to cause this, but it is unhealthy. 

 

You never responded regarding your $10,000 gift to the poor over the past 3 years, which charity did you give it to? how did they waste it? Id just like to know as it maybe offers some explanation for your current selfishness, hate and distrust.

 

Regarding the no voting over the age of 65... we accept that 16 year olds cant be trusted due to the (supposed) lack of experience etc... I would suggest that the over 65s are starting to lose their mental capacity and many of them will not be around to see the results of their votes.

[Guest]

Debt bubble returns millions to days of 2008 crash

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/17/uk-debt-bubble-queens-speech-consumer-credit-loans-spending

 

Aren't the Tories managing our economy fabulously....

[Strokes]

5 hours ago, toddybad said:

Debt bubble returns millions to days of 2008 crash

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/17/uk-debt-bubble-queens-speech-consumer-credit-loans-spending

 

Aren't the Tories managing our economy fabulously....

You know what, ive heard of a few friends/acquaintances (decent jobs) having gone into IVA plans recently. Unfortunately I've no details about why exactly they've ended up in trouble but it wouldn't surprise me if debt is spiralling again.