Rogstanley Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 15 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: Well now you're just being difficult. But OK OK. Let's do it your way. The difficult way. So where is it that you feel traffic congestion is an issue that would be resolved by building over a few farms? Clearly not London. Oakham? Getting rid of Farmer Brown's turnip field just past the Upper Hambleton turn-off would surely shave a good 30 seconds off the journey to Rutland Water. I was merely responding to claims that we can't build new infrastructure because we are overcrowded by pointing out that there is huge amounts of non-urban space we could build on. Congestion exists all over the country and could be solved to a significant extent with the building of new infrastructure on existing farmland and/or expanding urban areas to reduce inner city congestion. You can also build better train lines. There is no end of things you can do. We have the worst traffic congestion in the developed world, clearly your 'do nothing' approach hasn't worked.
Fox Ulike Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 24 minutes ago, toddybad said: Last one from me but after Michael Gove was the worst education secretary in memory I assumed he was incapable of doing any job well. He's actually turning out to be quite good at environment secretary though. UK will back total ban on bee-harming pesticides, Michael Gove reveals https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/09/uk-will-back-total-ban-on-bee-harming-pesticides-michael-gove-reveals?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard I guess so - but how long have we known about decling bee populations? Too little too late probably. Very frustrating that it's only a catastrophic environmental event (flying insects declining by 75%) that gets any sort of action. And now Gove is trying to sell himself as some tree-hugging Earth lover trying to save the planet. It makes me want to be sick all over his stupid face. Read this in another article: "Another way of sampling insects – car windscreens – has often been anecdotally used to suggest a major decline, with people remembering many more bugs squashed on their windscreens in the past. " True dat.
leicsmac Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 4 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: I guess so - but how long have we known about decling bee populations? Too little too late probably. Very frustrating that it's only a catastrophic environmental event (flying insects declining by 75%) that gets any sort of action. And now Gove is trying to sell himself as some tree-hugging Earth lover trying to save the planet. It makes me want to be sick all over his stupid face. Read this in another article: "Another way of sampling insects – car windscreens – has often been anecdotally used to suggest a major decline, with people remembering many more bugs squashed on their windscreens in the past. " True dat. 1 Well yeah. That's people down to an art. Stuff that could become catastrophic is happening right now on a larger environmental scale and a lot of folks don't even think that is happening, and likely won't until the kak hits the fan.
Rogstanley Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: Traffic congestion table from Forbes. Surprised about the US, but that confirms we have the 2nd worst traffic congestion in the developed world. How embarrassing for a nation that once prided itself on the quality of its engineering.
Strokes Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 7 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: I was merely responding to claims that we can't build new infrastructure because we are overcrowded by pointing out that there is huge amounts of non-urban space we could build on. Congestion exists all over the country and could be solved to a significant extent with the building of new infrastructure on existing farmland and/or expanding urban areas to reduce inner city congestion. You can also build better train lines. There is no end of things you can do. We have the worst traffic congestion in the developed world, clearly your 'do nothing' approach hasn't worked. A cull on humans would work, it doesn’t mean it’s the right approach.
Rogstanley Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Strokes said: A cull on humans would work, it doesn’t mean it’s the right approach. What is the right approach then? This is the attitude that holds us back as a country. When faced with a problem we used to tackle it head on, now we just race to find reasons why something can't be done and leave it at that. We're pathetic. Edited 9 November 2017 by Rogstanley 1
Buce Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 12 minutes ago, Strokes said: A cull on humans would work, it doesn’t mean it’s the right approach. Let’s not be hasty... 1
Strokes Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 8 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: What is the right approach then? This is the attitude that holds us back as a country. When faced with a problem we used to tackle it head on, now we just race to find reasons why something can't be done and leave it at that. We're pathetic. Intergalactic colonisation obviously.
Strokes Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 2 minutes ago, Buce said: Let’s not be hasty...
leicsmac Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 2 minutes ago, Strokes said: Intergalactic colonisation obviously. Fvcking A, it is.
Strokes Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 Just now, leicsmac said: Fvcking A, it is. I knew you’d like that one
Fox Ulike Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 22 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: What is the right approach then? This is the attitude that holds us back as a country. When faced with a problem we used to tackle it head on, now we just race to find reasons why something can't be done and leave it at that. We're pathetic. Yeah that’s because in the past when faced with a problem like this some bright spark always piped up “Let’s sacrifice a few farms” So we lost farmland so that we could get to work a bit quicker; and so then we had to adopt even more intensive farming methods to make up the shortfall in farmland. Then all the insects died. Then 90% of humanity starved to death. Which solved the traffic problem. So actually, you were on right track after all.
Fox Ulike Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 16 minutes ago, Strokes said: Intergalactic colonisation obviously. Will never happen under this inept Tory Government. 1
Captain... Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: What is the right approach then? This is the attitude that holds us back as a country. When faced with a problem we used to tackle it head on, now we just race to find reasons why something can't be done and leave it at that. We're pathetic. We can't just bulldoze farms, that is not the solution to congestion and overcrowding, unless you are going to turn a large section of farmland into a new town as an industry hub. 1. We can improve bus/rail efficiency, effectiveness and price to make public transport more appealing. 2. We can stop being so bloody precious about old buildings in the middle of cities that are not fit for use, but can't be developed because they are listed due to the King's dog once taking a piss against it. (I'm not saying destroy all old buildings, but there are some prime places ripe for development that are just sitting there untouched due to their "historical value"). 3. We need to also look at why congestion occurs and do something about it. For example there is one spot on the M4 on my way home where the 3 lanes of the motorway has to merge into 2. The merge is unavoidable, but what is inexplicable is that the motorway becomes 2 lanes at the Heathrow junction. If they kept it at 2 lanes, then it would be slower, but no congestion. Instead they've put in the third lane for about a mile, which means that loads of cars fly down the outside lane then have to merge with slower moving traffic. Even on the quietest of days it causes congestion. 4. It is not just a work from home culture that needs to be addressed, but this obsession with 9 to 5, we live in a 24 hour global society, I have meetings with the US and the far east, yet everyone works 9-5 Monday to Friday. Some people are morning people some people are night owls, people are at their best at different times. Trust people to do the job as they see fit and stop this obsession with 9-5. This could also be applied to schools. 5. If you really want to build on farms then go Veggie, meat production requires more land than crop farming.
Rogstanley Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 3 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: Yeah that’s because in the past when faced with a problem like this some bright spark always piped up “Let’s sacrifice a few farms” So we lost farmland so that we could get to work a bit quicker; and so then we had to adopt even more intensive farming methods to make up the shortfall in farmland. Then all the insects died. Then 90% of humanity starved to death. Which solved the traffic problem. So actually, you were on right track after all. Because building a few roads is going to kill 90% of humanity. Jesus Christ. Why are we the worst in the world then? How come every single other country in the developed world can do it better than us?
Rogstanley Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Captain... said: We can't just bulldoze farms, that is not the solution to congestion and overcrowding, unless you are going to turn a large section of farmland into a new town as an industry hub. 1. We can improve bus/rail efficiency, effectiveness and price to make public transport more appealing. 2. We can stop being so bloody precious about old buildings in the middle of cities that are not fit for use, but can't be developed because they are listed due to the King's dog once taking a piss against it. (I'm not saying destroy all old buildings, but there are some prime places ripe for development that are just sitting there untouched due to their "historical value"). 3. We need to also look at why congestion occurs and do something about it. For example there is one spot on the M4 on my way home where the 3 lanes of the motorway has to merge into 2. The merge is unavoidable, but what is inexplicable is that the motorway becomes 2 lanes at the Heathrow junction. If they kept it at 2 lanes, then it would be slower, but no congestion. Instead they've put in the third lane for about a mile, which means that loads of cars fly down the outside lane then have to merge with slower moving traffic. Even on the quietest of days it causes congestion. 4. It is not just a work from home culture that needs to be addressed, but this obsession with 9 to 5, we live in a 24 hour global society, I have meetings with the US and the far east, yet everyone works 9-5 Monday to Friday. Some people are morning people some people are night owls, people are at their best at different times. Trust people to do the job as they see fit and stop this obsession with 9-5. This could also be applied to schools. 5. If you really want to build on farms then go Veggie, meat production requires more land than crop farming. The only reason I began talking about farms was because someone had said we can't build any new infrastructure because we're overcrowded. The vast majority of the country is farmland or other non-urban land, so I was just making the point that there is actually plenty of room to build if you could handle losing a very small percentage, maybe 1% or 2% of the farms. If we lost 2% of farms nobody would even notice but it would give you a massive amount of land to build on. Appreciate the ideas, it's refreshing to see ideas instead of problems, but I think we're past the point of theorizing about things that we might be able to do and at the point where we need to actually do something with some urgency. That's the problem, we're great at talking but we never actually do anything here anymore. We're a nation of armchair academics now. Edited 9 November 2017 by Rogstanley
Fox Ulike Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Because building a few roads is going to kill 90% of humanity. Jesus Christ. Why are we the worst in the world then? How come every single other country in the developed world can do it better than us? I've no idea you're the local traffic expert around here. Continually addressing each 'first-world problem' by reducing ever more of the planet to concrete isn't really a solution to anything. You've got a bee in your bonnet about congestion, but take that traffic cone off your head for one minute. This is about competing interests. Roads, agriculture, housing, manufacturing, energy etc etc etc . All require land. Yes you can solve the traffic problem by paving over some fields. Great. But then what about everything else? The Countryside isn't a resource to be ruthlessly exploited until it's all gone. If all you're bothered about is the fact that it takes you longer to get to work than you'd like it to - then you're probably quite lucky in your life, and so you should probably just put up with it. Edit: Plus, there's plenty of evidence that building more roads does nothing to ease congestion. https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/ Edited 9 November 2017 by Fox Ulike
Strokes Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 53 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: Will never happen under this inept Tory Government. Whereas Corbyn loves you to the moon and back, so he has some experience.
Captain... Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 30 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Why are we the worst in the world then? How come every single other country in the developed world can do it better than us? Mainly because we did it first, we have properly handicapped ourselves with the way streets and roads developed organically and many other countries learnt from our mistakes. We were innovators and trailblazers, but in being the first we made many mistakes and set out our infrastructure in a way that worked back then, but had no concept of what the future would bring. It is the same with our plumbing, it was mainly built in Victorian times, and was the best in the world back then, but so much of it is no longer fit for purpose and people can do it better, but we can't just rip things up and start again. We do have a tendency to make things worse, creating more problems trying to solve one. Belgrave flyover was a perfect example of that, personally I thought it was madness to take it down, but actually traffic flows so much better. It tried to solve a problem and just caused more congestion. 1
Buce Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 10 minutes ago, Strokes said: Whereas Corbyn loves you to the moon and back, so he has some experience. Vote Nut Brown Hare! 1
Guest Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 1 hour ago, Captain... said: We can't just bulldoze farms, that is not the solution to congestion and overcrowding, unless you are going to turn a large section of farmland into a new town as an industry hub. 1. We can improve bus/rail efficiency, effectiveness and price to make public transport more appealing. 2. We can stop being so bloody precious about old buildings in the middle of cities that are not fit for use, but can't be developed because they are listed due to the King's dog once taking a piss against it. (I'm not saying destroy all old buildings, but there are some prime places ripe for development that are just sitting there untouched due to their "historical value"). 3. We need to also look at why congestion occurs and do something about it. For example there is one spot on the M4 on my way home where the 3 lanes of the motorway has to merge into 2. The merge is unavoidable, but what is inexplicable is that the motorway becomes 2 lanes at the Heathrow junction. If they kept it at 2 lanes, then it would be slower, but no congestion. Instead they've put in the third lane for about a mile, which means that loads of cars fly down the outside lane then have to merge with slower moving traffic. Even on the quietest of days it causes congestion. 4. It is not just a work from home culture that needs to be addressed, but this obsession with 9 to 5, we live in a 24 hour global society, I have meetings with the US and the far east, yet everyone works 9-5 Monday to Friday. Some people are morning people some people are night owls, people are at their best at different times. Trust people to do the job as they see fit and stop this obsession with 9-5. This could also be applied to schools. 5. If you really want to build on farms then go Veggie, meat production requires more land than crop farming. Re number 5, it's probably politically impossible at the moment but we should - and I suspect will at some point - make meat so expensive that it.becomes a luxury rather than an everyday item. The world simply can't take the level of meat production we have. You could allow lab grown meat into the market without the inflated prices. I say this as a carnivore who understands the problems that go with enjoying meat.
Guest MattP Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 1 hour ago, Rogstanley said: Surprised about the US, but that confirms we have the 2nd worst traffic congestion in the developed world. How embarrassing for a nation that once prided itself on the quality of its engineering. I was surprised to see so many socialist countries near the top given how much they borrow to invest in infrastructure.
Jon the Hat Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: I was surprised to see so many socialist countries near the top given how much they borrow to invest in infrastructure. Lots of grand projects, sod all maintenance.
leicsmac Posted 9 November 2017 Posted 9 November 2017 35 minutes ago, Captain... said: Mainly because we did it first, we have properly handicapped ourselves with the way streets and roads developed organically and many other countries learnt from our mistakes. We were innovators and trailblazers, but in being the first we made many mistakes and set out our infrastructure in a way that worked back then, but had no concept of what the future would bring. It is the same with our plumbing, it was mainly built in Victorian times, and was the best in the world back then, but so much of it is no longer fit for purpose and people can do it better, but we can't just rip things up and start again. We do have a tendency to make things worse, creating more problems trying to solve one. Belgrave flyover was a perfect example of that, personally I thought it was madness to take it down, but actually traffic flows so much better. It tried to solve a problem and just caused more congestion. This. Too much old infrastructure, not enough will to make it entirely anew as perhaps it needs to be.
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