Innovindil Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said: The two companies I’ve worked with this week are both growing +20% year on year and making great profits. They’re paying staff bonuses and things are rosy. There may be doom and gloom everywhere else but I don’t see it week to week. I legit haven't seen doom and gloom at all. I keep hearing about all these people having to max out credit cards to keep food on the table and the lights on. I'm sure it must be happening somewhere, but out of all the people I know, minimum wagers, part-timers and some living completely from benefits, I've not seen one. It must be happening, the statistics say it is, but maybe we should try to find a reason why these people are struggling while others in the same situations aren't, beyond "muh evil tories". 3
Guest Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 4 minutes ago, Innovindil said: I legit haven't seen doom and gloom at all. I keep hearing about all these people having to max out credit cards to keep food on the table and the lights on. I'm sure it must be happening somewhere, but out of all the people I know, minimum wagers, part-timers and some living completely from benefits, I've not seen one. It must be happening, the statistics say it is, but maybe we should try to find a reason why these people are struggling while others in the same situations aren't, beyond "muh evil tories". How would you know if the people you meet are taking on debt?
Guest Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Innovindil said: I legit haven't seen doom and gloom at all. I keep hearing about all these people having to max out credit cards to keep food on the table and the lights on. I'm sure it must be happening somewhere, but out of all the people I know, minimum wagers, part-timers and some living completely from benefits, I've not seen one. It must be happening, the statistics say it is, but maybe we should try to find a reason why these people are struggling while others in the same situations aren't, beyond "muh evil tories". Actually the answer to this is very simple. It depends on your starting point. It's simple fact that prices are going up compared to wages. It's simply a matter of how much leeway did you have before? If you had leeway you'll be okay, if you didn't you might not be. It doesn't have to be down to overspending on luxuries, it might just be rent being higher in a particular locality, needing an extras bedroom because your near teenage kids are different genders, a car dying on you, somebody else crashing into you and increasing your premiums. It can just be one unexpected thing that causes a difficulty which is exacerbated by increasing prices and leads to debt. Once you have debt it is very difficult to get out of. This idea that everybody is to blame for debt is inaccurate imo. It's a lazy way of thinking by those lucky enough not to have fallen on hard times outside of their control. Edited 24 November 2017 by Guest
Guest MattP Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 7 minutes ago, Innovindil said: I legit haven't seen doom and gloom at all. I keep hearing about all these people having to max out credit cards to keep food on the table and the lights on. I'm sure it must be happening somewhere, but out of all the people I know, minimum wagers, part-timers and some living completely from benefits, I've not seen one. It must be happening, the statistics say it is, but maybe we should try to find a reason why these people are struggling while others in the same situations aren't, beyond "muh evil tories". Personal choice are often the reason, no doubt about that. I know of a person "struggling" - they do often have to borrow and have been to a food bank, but they also always have the newest phone and never miss a weekend out on the piss. Strangly if you point this out they take offence.
Guest Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 2 minutes ago, MattP said: Personal choice are often the reason, no doubt about that. I know of a person "struggling" - they do often have to borrow and have been to a food bank, but they also always have the newest phone and never miss a weekend out on the piss. Strangly if you point this out they take offence. Sometimes > often
Webbo Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 2 hours ago, toddybad said: Today's figures showing that mortgage acceptances are down, credit card spending is down, savings are falling, wages are falling against inflation, business and consumer confidence are both down..... ....anybody really willing to deny there might be a problem on the horizon? One minute you're complaining that personal debt is at record levels and then you're complaining that spending on credit cards is down? What exactly do you want? 1
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 1 hour ago, toddybad said: And this is my point - the securities ARE national debt To be clear, I'm NOT saying that ongoing high deficits are good things. But national debt is not in itself the end of the world. The deficit is at a fairly sensible level so if we could grow the economy we are able to spend as the deficit would be smaller. Borrowing to invest is sensible economics. Particularly when interest rates are so low. I don't disagree with the tories that the deficit needed to come down, I just disagree with the means of achieving that. If we'd done it by investing to grow the economy back to where it was the deficit would have shrunk by itself. Instead we've taken money out of the economy, put the pressure of achieving growth into personal debt, sucked the life out of growth and are in danger of having done it for nothing if personal debt tips us back into a credit crisis. At some point though no one would see the gilts are particularly secure as the country would have no fiscal responsibility as we would never be paying down our national debts or tackling them . Surely at that point the gilts would become worthless as the returns would not be worth the risk? We are still borrowing and we are still investing, just not recklessly. At the end of the day we are still running a deficit and we are still increasing national debt. I would rather us be spending the £50 billion per year we are currently spending on Interest payments on actual stuff for the country. Its all personal preference at the end of the day. We haven't actually taken money out of the economy because there was no money there. There is no evidence to suggest growth is linked to personal debt, it could just be that people want to keep up with the jones and have a new car and iPhone. They don't need that to live.
Guest Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 9 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: At some point though no one would see the gilts are particularly secure as the country would have no fiscal responsibility as we would never be paying down our national debts or tackling them . Surely at that point the gilts would become worthless as the returns would not be worth the risk? We are still borrowing and we are still investing, just not recklessly. At the end of the day we are still running a deficit and we are still increasing national debt. I would rather us be spending the £50 billion per year we are currently spending on Interest payments on actual stuff for the country. Its all personal preference at the end of the day. We haven't actually taken money out of the economy because there was no money there. There is no evidence to suggest growth is linked to personal debt, it could just be that people want to keep up with the jones and have a new car and iPhone. They don't need that to live. What would happen is the gilts rate of return would spiral in the same way that a personal loan interest rate is higher for a riskier customer. It's what happened with Greece's gilts/bonds - in order to raise money the interest rate had to go up significantly making then unaffordable to the country. Our gilts are at low rates. There is plenty of wiggle room. We need investment as at the moment we're in decline.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 24 minutes ago, MattP said: Personal choice are often the reason, no doubt about that. I know of a person "struggling" - they do often have to borrow and have been to a food bank, but they also always have the newest phone and never miss a weekend out on the piss. Strangly if you point this out they take offence. This is the problem. Drive around an estate of people who 'just about managing' and I am sure you will see cars many of which are less than 10 years old, a large screen TV attached to the wall and often people and children walking around with the latest iPhone, iPad, iPod, earphones etc etc. Nobody needs this stuff yet pretty much everyone has it. No I am sure there are some people who genuinely are hitting difficult times, but its low numbers overall.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 12 minutes ago, toddybad said: What would happen is the gilts rate of return would spiral in the same way that a personal loan interest rate is higher for a riskier customer. It's what happened with Greece's gilts/bonds - in order to raise money the interest rate had to go up significantly making then unaffordable to the country. Our gilts are at low rates. There is plenty of wiggle room. We need investment as at the moment we're in decline. Exactly. So to have a government spending plan considered by investors as risky would be very bad, this is why we need to so fiscal responsibility. I am not sure we do have wiggle room. Our Interest payments are increasing at them moment. We are still running a deficit. If we had no deficit then yes we would have some room to borrow but we don't. Its a bit a risk to assume that spending more public money would make us grow stronger. Its almost like a gambler using his last tenner because he has got a sure thing tip! there are no certainties. The safer option IMO is to keep the tenner and be sensible with it.
Izzy Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 18 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: This is the problem. Drive around an estate of people who 'just about managing' and I am sure you will see cars many of which are less than 10 years old, a large screen TV attached to the wall and often people and children walking around with the latest iPhone, iPad, iPod, earphones etc etc. Nobody needs this stuff yet pretty much everyone has it. No I am sure there are some people who genuinely are hitting difficult times, but its low numbers overall. I loved someone’s quote along the lines of... ”We’ve created a society where people buy things they don’t need, with money they haven’t got, to impress people they don’t like” 1 1
Guest Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 10 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Exactly. So to have a government spending plan considered by investors as risky would be very bad, this is why we need to so fiscal responsibility. I am not sure we do have wiggle room. Our Interest payments are increasing at them moment. We are still running a deficit. If we had no deficit then yes we would have some room to borrow but we don't. Its a bit a risk to assume that spending more public money would make us grow stronger. Its almost like a gambler using his last tenner because he has got a sure thing tip! there are no certainties. The safer option IMO is to keep the tenner and be sensible with it. Quite the opposite. An economic cycle is all about confidence. If the public had no money to spend consumer and business confidence is low, as today's figures show. We can't break out of the cycle without doing something different. If you have a business it's in your interest for public servants to be paid more and for the nations infrastructure to be improved.
Innovindil Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 1 hour ago, toddybad said: How would you know if the people you meet are taking on debt? Not to toot my own horn, but all of my friends and family know I have disposable income, and they also know I'd help out if they were struggling. Yet none have asked, or even hinted that they need help. Just seems odd to me. And at your other post, of course there are unforeseen problems, but again, I'd suggest that almost everyone has things break down, suffers crashes and what have you. It doesn't explain how my minimum wage brother and his minimum wage part time wife can manage but others can not. They didn't start off with any gifts or any help, so it just doesn't explain it.
Guest Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 11 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: I loved someone’s quote along the lines of... ”We’ve created a society where people buy things they don’t need, with money they haven’t got, to impress people they don’t like” The trouble is everything is made badly these days. Capitalists would say low prices goods is a huge win but you almost have to buy replacements every other year because they seem to be made to break. I'm going to cite lack of regulation at this point. I must say I don't buy replacements as I'm broke enough as it is. Also, if people weren't continually buying tat the economy would crumble with business failing across the country. Unfortunately, and wrongly, our entire economy is built on the premise of debt, simply because money is debt (I know you love it when I go down this route). The entire economic system is a house of cards built on shifting sands.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 1 minute ago, toddybad said: Quite the opposite. An economic cycle is all about confidence. If the public had no money to spend consumer and business confidence is low, as today's figures show. We can't break out of the cycle without doing something different. If you have a business it's in your interest for public servants to be paid more and for the nations infrastructure to be improved. Obviously have to agree to disagree we have had this discussion so many times before. Spending money you don't have on the off chance that people might spend it is very very risky for a nation nearly 2 trillion in the red. I don't think anyone would have any confidence in buying our gilts if we had no intention of ever paying down our debt. When do we stop 'investing'. Public servants may well be paid more (under review) at least 1% possibly more and the nations infrastructure is continually being improved. Although as normal this is mainly London centric, although there are road and rail projects across the country and national broadband fund has been announced today. We can not spend unlimited amounts of things in the hope that it might pay off. its like me getting a bank loan to buy 10000 lottery tickets. If the public servants get an above 1% pay rise they might decided to shove it under the mattress instead of buying a new iPhone! It all ifs buts and maybes. The only certain way to get debt under control is to stop borrowing!
Strokes Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 4 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Not to toot my own horn, but all of my friends and family know I have disposable income, and they also know I'd help out if they were struggling. Yet none have asked, or even hinted that they need help. Just seems odd to me. And at your other post, of course there are unforeseen problems, but again, I'd suggest that almost everyone has things break down, suffers crashes and what have you. It doesn't explain how my minimum wage brother and his minimum wage part time wife can manage but others can not. They didn't start off with any gifts or any help, so it just doesn't explain it. Lend us £20 please. 1
Guest Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Obviously have to agree to disagree we have had this discussion so many times before. Spending money you don't have on the off chance that people might spend it is very very risky for a nation nearly 2 trillion in the red. I don't think anyone would have any confidence in buying our gilts if we had no intention of ever paying down our debt. When do we stop 'investing'. Public servants may well be paid more (under review) at least 1% possibly more and the nations infrastructure is continually being improved. Although as normal this is mainly London centric, although there are road and rail projects across the country and national broadband fund has been announced today. We can not spend unlimited amounts of things in the hope that it might pay off. its like me getting a bank loan to buy 10000 lottery tickets. If the public servants get an above 1% pay rise they might decided to shove it under the mattress instead of buying a new iPhone! It all ifs buts and maybes. The only certain way to get debt under control is to stop borrowing! A 1% pay rise means they've got a lot less to spend with inflation at 3%. You're guaranteeing economic problems. We've already talked about why debt isn't all bad. It absolutely isn't like you buying lottery tickets as had been explained ad nauseum. I think we will just agree to disagree.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 3 minutes ago, toddybad said: The trouble is everything is made badly these days. Capitalists would say low prices goods is a huge win but you almost have to buy replacements every other year because they seem to be made to break. I'm going to cite lack of regulation at this point. I must say I don't buy replacements as I'm broke enough as it is. Also, if people weren't continually buying tat the economy would crumble with business failing across the country. Unfortunately, and wrongly, our entire economy is built on the premise of debt, simply because money is debt (I know you love it when I go down this route). The entire economic system is a house of cards built on shifting sands. But when were talking about things people ACTAULLY need to live its quite important. You don't need to buy brand new. Yes its nice to have new but I have brought 2nd hand appliances and furniture before, gave it a good clean and its perfect. People don't need a new car, but many get them. A large percentage of people have the latest TV and the latest mobile phone, not because they break but because they have to have it for whatever reason. Some stuff is actually very reliable. Its peoples attitudes with a problem. I have picked up a perfectly good flat screen TV for £30 recently, its not 4k or curved or 3d of any of that bollocks but it has a great picture and decent sound! absolutely no reason for someone to have upgraded that but they did! I got a solid oak tv unit for £12 sanded it and waxed it, better than anything you buy! If people keep buying iPhones then Apple will sell them, if people stopped and said do I need finger print recognition or whatever? no. Then Apple would need to adapt their business model to survive, at the moment the know there will be millions of lemmings who have to have the latest one.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 3 minutes ago, toddybad said: A 1% pay rise means they've got a lot less to spend with inflation at 3%. You're guaranteeing economic problems. We've already talked about why debt isn't all bad. It absolutely isn't like you buying lottery tickets as had been explained ad nauseum. I think we will just agree to disagree. You are not though, you are guaranteeing they should be reviewing what they spend their money on. Fact is there will always be spending in certain areas. If people cut back spending on things they don't need that's good for me. Why do we live in a world where people need to spend £8bn (Black Friday) on what exactly? on a day that up until 5 years ago didn't exist in the UK. If we have no money then why are people spending 8 billion today when they didn't previously?
Innovindil Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 22 minutes ago, Strokes said: Lend us £20 please. Get a payday loan you sodding peasant.
Wymsey Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, MattP said: I agree with Nick to coin a phrase..... He's a Leicester fan, too. http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/watch-radio-presenter-nick-ferrari-7885389 Edited 24 November 2017 by Wymeswold fox
Buce Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 43 minutes ago, Strokes said: Lend us £20 please. Get down the food bank, loser. 1
Guest Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 2 hours ago, Foxin_mad said: Obviously have to agree to disagree we have had this discussion so many times before. Spending money you don't have on the off chance that people might spend it is very very risky for a nation nearly 2 trillion in the red. I don't think anyone would have any confidence in buying our gilts if we had no intention of ever paying down our debt. When do we stop 'investing'. Public servants may well be paid more (under review) at least 1% possibly more and the nations infrastructure is continually being improved. Although as normal this is mainly London centric, although there are road and rail projects across the country and national broadband fund has been announced today. We can not spend unlimited amounts of things in the hope that it might pay off. its like me getting a bank loan to buy 10000 lottery tickets. If the public servants get an above 1% pay rise they might decided to shove it under the mattress instead of buying a new iPhone! It all ifs buts and maybes. The only certain way to get debt under control is to stop borrowing! Fox. I've tried to be really patient this afternoon. If both the government and public stop borrowing we'll be in recession. GDP is the amount of debt in the economy. If debt goes down GDP falls. 2-quarters of that and we're in recession.
Buce Posted 24 November 2017 Posted 24 November 2017 7 minutes ago, toddybad said: Fox. I've tried to be really patient this afternoon. If both the government and public stop borrowing we'll be in recession. GDP is the amount of debt in the economy. If debt goes down GDP falls. 2-quarters of that and we're in recession. Perhaps you should use words with fewer syllables.
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