Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Lionator]

4 hours ago, Fox Ulike said:

Yes that was a good one. My personal favourite was this one:

 

Corbyn: "If we are to protect our people we must be honest about what threatens our security."

May: "Jeremy Corbyn has said that terror attacks in Britain are our own fault."

 

It really is just playground politics.

 

The real question for me is why so many people swallow it. I really just can't get my head around that.

Because unlike most of the posters on here, the overwhelming majority of people don't pay much attention to politics. They hear the soundbites and make their mind up on that. My Conservative uncle talks about how Corbyn wants to destroy the armed forces and hey presto my politcally uninterested Mum tells me that Corbyn wants to destroy the armed forces. Chinese whispers, misinformation, lack of education on politics even, which should be addressed in schools.

[Izzy]

3 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Because unlike most of the posters on here, the overwhelming majority of people don't pay much attention to politics. They hear the soundbites and make their mind up on that. My Conservative uncle talks about how Corbyn wants to destroy the armed forces and hey presto my politcally uninterested Mum tells me that Corbyn wants to destroy the armed forces. Chinese whispers, misinformation, lack of education on politics even, which should be addressed in schools.

The last thing I want is for my kids to be educated about politics at school by leftie teachers thanks very much 

Edited 23 November 2017 by Izzy Muzzett

[Lionator]

Just now, Izzy Muzzett said:

The last thing I want is for my kids to be taught politics at school by leftie teachers thanks very much 

I'd argue but this is a good point. In year 9 at school, my teacher cold called the BNP and called them racist down the phone. Not a great example even if they BNP are abhorrent. I suppose you could get teachers to be aware of the responsiblity that they have and that at the very least, basic democracy should be taught in schools I guess in the style of electing school councils and similar things.

[Rogstanley]

35 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

The last thing I want is for my kids to be educated about politics at school by leftie teachers thanks very much 

I don't think you have to teach anything about specific parties or policies. The problem is a lack of critical thinking, and that's something that can easily be demonstrated in school by putting up a few made up examples of misleading headlines, getting kids to recognise how easily a piece of information can be misrepresented. It obviously wouldn't be a whole subject, maybe just a single one hour lesson at some point in secondary school. 

 

I guess the problem would be that if you don't really care for getting to the facts, you're still not going to care after such a lesson.

Edited 23 November 2017 by Rogstanley

[ajthefox]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

The last thing I want is for my kids to be educated about politics at school by leftie teachers thanks very much 

Who and where are all these leftie teachers, Izzy?

[Strokes]

11 minutes ago, ajthefox said:

Who and where are all these leftie teachers, Izzy?

It’s not a secret tbf.

[Izzy]

14 minutes ago, ajthefox said:

Who and where are all these leftie teachers, Izzy?

 

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

It’s not a secret tbf.

Exactly.

 

A survey of Teachers done by tes at the last GE showed that three quarters were voting Labour. Hardly 'breaking news'...

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

I don't think you have to teach anything about specific parties or policies. The problem is a lack of critical thinking, and that's something that can easily be demonstrated in school by putting up a few made up examples of misleading headlines, getting kids to recognise how easily a piece of information can be misrepresented. It obviously wouldn't be a whole subject, maybe just a single one hour lesson at some point in secondary school. 

 

I guess the problem would be that if you don't really care for getting to the facts, you're still not going to care after such a lesson.

I agree with your first sentence.

 

Depends what age group you're talking about really. Most kids at a youngish age don't give a toss about facts.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I agree with your first sentence.

 

Depends what age group you're talking about really. Most kids at a youngish age don't give a toss about facts.

Nor do most tories.

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Nor do most tories.

Good one 

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, ajthefox said:

Who and where are all these leftie teachers, Izzy?

Tbf the majority of highly educated people do vote for left wing and centrist causes. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-education-higher-university-study-university-leave-eu-remain-voters-educated-a7881441.html

 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/13/voters-with-higher-levels-of-education-were-more-likely-to-vote-labour-6706432/
 

 

 

 

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Nor do most tories.

It’s hard to tell what’s fact or hysterical whining these days though. Do you know what I mean?

[Strokes]

Just now, toddybad said:

Tbf the majority of highly educated people do vote for left wing and centrist causes. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-education-higher-university-study-university-leave-eu-remain-voters-educated-a7881441.html

 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/13/voters-with-higher-levels-of-education-were-more-likely-to-vote-labour-6706432/
 

 

 

 

Did someone have a seizure down the bingo, that graphs a mess.

[bovril]

34 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I agree with your first sentence.

 

Depends what age group you're talking about really. Most kids at a youngish age don't give a toss about facts.

Wtf? We're probably most enthusiastic about learning when we're at a young age. 

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

Wtf? We're probably most enthusiastic about learning when we're at a young age. 

Kids learn through play at a young age. The left/analytical/factual brain doesn't even come 'on line' until after 7 years old. Even then the left brain isn't fully developed until our mid twenties.

 

In my experience, young kids learn through physical activity, art, music, crafts etc. - not through facts.

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Lionator said:

Because unlike most of the posters on here, the overwhelming majority of people don't pay much attention to politics. They hear the soundbites and make their mind up on that. My Conservative uncle talks about how Corbyn wants to destroy the armed forces and hey presto my politcally uninterested Mum tells me that Corbyn wants to destroy the armed forces. Chinese whispers, misinformation, lack of education on politics even, which should be addressed in schools.

There are numerous videos of Corbyn openly stating he wants to shut down NATO and see the armed forces have cuts to them, it's hardly misinformation to point out he's not exactly the man you want for defence.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Kids learn through play at a young age. The left/analytical/factual brain doesn't even come 'on line' until after 7 years old. Even then the left brain isn't fully developed until our mid twenties.

 

In my experience, young kids learn through physical activity, art, music, crafts etc. - not through facts.

I think all kids are different tbh. In years 7 and upwards it'd be fine.

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Tbf the majority of highly educated people do vote for left wing and centrist causes. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-education-higher-university-study-university-leave-eu-remain-voters-educated-a7881441.html

 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/13/voters-with-higher-levels-of-education-were-more-likely-to-vote-labour-6706432/
 

 

 

 

That's only if you measure how educated someone is by whether they went to Uni, is a guy with a 2:2 in dance really more educated than a guy who built a business at 18? 

 

Some of the thickest people I know have degrees and some of the brightest I know don't have.

[bovril]

5 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Kids learn through play at a young age. The left/analytical/factual brain doesn't even come 'on line' until after 7 years old. Even then the left brain isn't fully developed until our mid twenties.

 

In my experience, young kids learn through physical activity, art, music, crafts etc. - not through facts.

So then teach them not to vote for the Tories through the medium of dancing and clapping. 

[Strokes]

Just now, bovril said:

So then teach them not to vote for the Tories through the medium of dancing and clapping. 

Is that how you created toddy?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

That's only if you measure how educated someone is by whether they went to Uni, is a guy with a 2:2 in dance really more educated than a guy who built a business at 18? 

 

Some of the thickest people I know have degrees and some of the brightest I know don't have.

Most of the thickest I know don't but this is hardly scientific is it?

 

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

There are numerous videos of Corbyn openly stating he wants to shut down NATO and see the armed forces have cuts to them, it's hardly misinformation to point out he's not exactly the man you want for defence.

I won't actually argue with your point in general - it would be better said as strong and proactive defence imo - though I think Corbyn is more flexible than you give him credit for. With Brexit it's said that, despite a lifetime of believing the EU is a capitalist club, he's listened to his party and the young and has softened very dramatically. I think the same would be true of NATO. I think it's one thing to be a protestor and another to be a leader and he's growing into it imo. I don't doubt he wants rid of trident but an not sure if need actually ever try as the civil servants will be giving all sorts of reasons against. Though I'm pretty relaxed either way.

[bovril]

Just now, Strokes said:

Is that how you created toddy?

That and plenty of locking in dark rooms. 

[Guest MattP]

Do you think he has softened his view on the EU?

 

He walked through the lobby to vote with the Tory Eurosceptics last week. He enforced a three line whip just a few months ago on the A50 vote.

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Most of the thickest I know don't but this is hardly scientific is it?

 

I won't actually argue with your point in general - it would be better said as strong and proactive defence imo - though I think Corbyn is more flexible than you give him credit for. With Brexit it's said that, despite a lifetime of believing the EU is a capitalist club, he's listened to his party and the young and has softened very dramatically. I think the same would be true of NATO. I think it's one thing to be a protestor and another to be a leader and he's growing into it imo. I don't doubt he wants rid of trident but an not sure if need actually ever try as the civil servants will be giving all sorts of reasons against. Though I'm pretty relaxed either way.

Interesting that he's allowed to be a leader 'growing into it' but May isn't 

[Guest]

Just now, Strokes said:

Is that how you created toddy?

 

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Do you think he has softened his view on the EU?

 

He walked through the lobby to vote with the Tory Eurosceptics last week. He enforced a three line whip just a few months ago on the A50 vote.

But Matty, leave won. I think if Labour got in you'd find us signing up to ask the things you hate to get access to the single market. It's been clear in everything Corbyn and Starmer have said for months. I think they'd try to get some additional leeway on immigration and accept worse terms than we currently have to do so. I think they'd accept the ECJ though.  I think their position is far, far easier to both be sure about and see working than the government's.