Realist Guy In The Room Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 55 minutes ago, MattP said: Of course we are Nigel Farage isn't the sole voice of the "True Brexiteers" (whatever they are) you know, the most votes UKIP ever got in an election was about 3 million, 17.4 million voted for Brexit. Negotiation involves compromise and at the minute we are still on course to leave the European Union in 2019 and then after a small transition period go out into the wider World - which red lines have been crossed? I got woken up this morning by what I thought was the sound of Nick Clegg crying into his cornflakes, ironically I think the aggression and desire of people like him in determining to stop Brexit gives the Prime Minister a little more leeway in her own party. A bit like Gina Millar his action has actually helped the cause rather than hindered it. Two quotes stuck with me from the Sunday political shows after the referendum on the Beeb, Andrew Marr said "My humble advice is if you voted to Leave, it won't be as good as you think and if you've voted Remain, it won't be as bad as you think" Andrew Neil said "I think we'll probably get to the end and as usual, both sides will be claiming a victory" Both of those are already looking absolutely spot on. I said this in a post a couple of weeks ago adding that both sides will be saying ‘I told you so’ but neither not really knowing why.
Fox Ulike Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 1 hour ago, toddybad said: I actually think teresa may has just pulled off one of the greatest political manoeuvres of all time. True Brexiteers are distraught at the deal so far - have a look at farage's commentary. Calling it a national humiliation. But the tory Brexiters know they are in a huge minority in both party and parliament so are trying to save face by claiming a sort of victory - see Michael gove's commentary. Remainers will be happy with a deal that essentially harmonises our laws with the EU forever (as by the end of 8 years our own laws will be enacted but case law will have set precedents in line with EU laws) and owns the way for a deal which will see relatively open borders. May has produced a deal that can be claimed as Brexit whilst keeping the establishment happy. Remainers are happy and leavers are pretending to be happy to save face that all of their red lines have been crossed EH?? Calm down Toddy mate, you’ll be doffing your cap and calling her “Mrs May” next. All she’s actually done is agreed to the only realistic options she had. The whole thing is a bit too ‘x factor’ for me. Just dragging out the tension to make it seem like a personal victory - when in reality, all this could and should have been settled a year ago. Like Simon Cowell going “Well, Theresa you’re vague on Ireland [boos from audience]; the divorce bill is pitching way too high [booooo!]; but, you know what… it’s a ‘Yes’ from me, you’re through to the next round [audience collapses in orgasmic screams with everyone claiming this is exactly what they had hoped for].
Strokes Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 16 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: EH?? Calm down Toddy mate, you’ll be doffing your cap and calling her “Mrs May” next. All she’s actually done is agreed to the only realistic options she had. The whole thing is a bit too ‘x factor’ for me. Just dragging out the tension to make it seem like a personal victory - when in reality, all this could and should have been settled a year ago. Like Simon Cowell going “Well, Theresa you’re vague on Ireland [boos from audience]; the divorce bill is pitching way too high [booooo!]; but, you know what… it’s a ‘Yes’ from me, you’re through to the next round [audience collapses in orgasmic screams with everyone claiming this is exactly what they had hoped for]. We hadn’t even triggered article 50 a year ago, so how could it have been settled then?
Fox Ulike Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 12 minutes ago, Strokes said: We hadn’t even triggered article 50 a year ago, so how could it have been settled then? !! Well I'm Sorry Snowflake. Those EU shackles must really be chaffing your dainty wrists this morning!
Innovindil Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 1 minute ago, Fox Ulike said: !! Well I'm Sorry Snowflake. Those EU shackles must really be chaffing your dainty wrists this morning! Can someone make this text bigger so I can read it please?
Strokes Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 5 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: !! Well I'm Sorry Snowflake. Those EU shackles must really be chaffing your dainty wrists this morning! It’s just a strange opinion to hold, you want negotiations to conclude before they have started. I thought it was meant to be us with unrealistic expectations.
Jon the Hat Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 So we haven't failed in negotiations then? Gosh, that is a surprise. All you remainers seemed so sure we were not going to agree on these points. Strange that.
Fox Ulike Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 12 minutes ago, Strokes said: It’s just a strange opinion to hold, you want negotiations to conclude before they have started. I thought it was meant to be us with unrealistic expectations. Yes I'm so sorry flower I got the dates muddled up. What a terrible thing to happen. I hope it hasn't ruined your entire weekend.
Fox Ulike Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: So we haven't failed in negotiations then? Gosh, that is a surprise. All you remainers seemed so sure we were not going to agree on these points. Strange that. Absolutely. I think it's the bulldozing of all the 'red lines' that we weren't expecting! Maybe 'pink lines' would have been more appropriate?
Rogstanley Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: So we haven't failed in negotiations then? Gosh, that is a surprise. All you remainers seemed so sure we were not going to agree on these points. Strange that. It's easy to succeed in negotiations if you're willing to concede all the ground. These weren't even negotiations, they were points the EU wanted addressed prior to negotiations starting. We might have rejected them outright; refused to have the basis of negotiations dictated by the EU. But we didn't, we played by their rules and one by one gave them exactly what they wanted. Less a negotiation, more a panicked giveaway. That's my interpretation at least. Edited 8 December 2017 by Rogstanley
Strokes Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 6 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: Yes I'm so sorry flower I got the dates muddled up. What a terrible thing to happen. I hope it hasn't ruined your entire weekend. Ah I see, you made a mistake. So when should they have been agreed? If not 3 months before the start?
Guest MattP Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 1 minute ago, Rogstanley said: Less a negotiation, more a panicked giveaway. That's my interpretation at least. Three months ago "The bill needs paying, we chose to leave, you need to settle the Irish border, give the EU citizens their rights" *above all happens* Today: "Wasn't even a negotiation, panicked giveaway,"
Guest Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 21 minutes ago, MattP said: Three months ago "The bill needs paying, we chose to leave, you need to settle the Irish border, give the EU citizens their rights" *above all happens* Today: "Wasn't even a negotiation, panicked giveaway," What has the EU conceded as part of the'negotiations'?
Innovindil Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 1 minute ago, toddybad said: What has the EU conceded as part of the'negotiations'? What did they need to concede at this early point? UK citizens living in the eu will be protected, which was what we wanted in exchange for eu citizens protected in the UK. The ecj will cover them for 8 years, a compromise, since they wanted the ecj to cover them forever, and (imo at least) an acceptable one, I wouldn't want our people going through a transition with no protection either. Divorce bill lower than originally thought, as the eu will now be covering the cost of relocation UK based agencies back to the eu, a small concession, but a concession nonetheless. The Irish border was always going to remain the way it is, it's practically the only possible way. At this stage, it's gone a lot better than I was expecting tbh.
Guest MattP Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 5 minutes ago, toddybad said: What has the EU conceded as part of the'negotiations'? The divorce bill is lower than what they wanted according to early briefs, they wanted a full payment originally before trade talks starts, that doesn't happen now. We demanded full reciprocal rights for citizens, we'e got it. We said the Irish border doesn't change, we got that. Why are you so negative over everything the government does?
Guest Kopfkino Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 8 minutes ago, toddybad said: What has the EU conceded as part of the'negotiations'? The exit bill for the UK will be at least €60bn and Britain’s departure will also change the balance of power in Europe, says Juncker. https://www.ft.com/content/552532c4-0e1f-11e7-a88c-50ba212dce4d So at least 40% knocked off that. On 06/12/2017 at 17:25, toddybad said: As far as I can see only Britain - and more specifically leave voters - thinks things is a game to be won or lost. You're actually a parody of yourself now. Uses language such as 'conceded' having 2 days ago suggested only leave voters saw this as win or lose.
Innovindil Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 4 minutes ago, Kopfkino said: The exit bill for the UK will be at least €60bn and Britain’s departure will also change the balance of power in Europe, says Juncker. https://www.ft.com/content/552532c4-0e1f-11e7-a88c-50ba212dce4d So at least 40% knocked off that. You're actually a parody of yourself now. Uses language such as 'conceded' having 2 days ago suggested only leave voters saw this as win or lose.
Guest MattP Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 At least we've got a weekend without having the thread spammed with Guardian links telling us how awful Brexit will be.
Popular Post Realist Guy In The Room Posted 8 December 2017 Popular Post Posted 8 December 2017 Just now, MattP said: The divorce bill is lower than what they wanted according to early briefs, they wanted a full payment originally before trade talks starts, that doesn't happen now. We demanded full reciprocal rights for citizens, we'e got it. We said the Irish border doesn't change, we got that. Why are you so negative over everything the government does? Come on. It’s taken 8 months to get to this stage because May was pandering to the hard brexit section of the electorate and her own party. If this agreement was announced before the GE, we’d be looking at a Labour government now. The EU from the start laid out the 3 factors that needed sorting before the trade talks began. Originally David Davis said no way and then conceded shortly after. This is not a victory for the negotiating team, for Brexiteers nor Remainers. All this has done has wasted 8 months of time. What has been announced could have been announced straight away if May and co weren’t so bothered about saving face with numerous factions. The only thing anybody should be concerned with is where the talks go from here. My guess is wording will change but essentially everything will stay the same. Our close relationship with Europe will basically see us members in all but name, immigration checks will be in place but numbers will be no different and our trade with the rest of the world will be advertised as being fantastic but will make no difference to anybody. No cliff edge but no land of milk and honey. Hard Brexiteers will be crying about migrant workers and Remainers will be crying about having to sign an immigration form on a plane en route to sunny Spain. Whoevers in government will continue to serve their own interests and we’ll all be left wondering what the whole point was. This whole thing is absolutely bloody ridiculous. 6
ealingfox Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 I thought that one of the basic rules of negotiating was to go in asking for much more than you actually want? Goes in with not showing your true hand etc etc. I don't really doubt that the EU has got more or less what it wanted so far - not that it matters enough to make much of a point of to be honest. They've moved a bit on the ECJ but I can't see much else that warranted 6 months of negotiation. Above all I think that's just the time it's taken for the hard Brexiters to realise that their demands weren't really compatible with reality.
Carl the Llama Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 The NWO have played a blinder here, manufacturing a scenario where both sides claim they're 'winning'. Hats off to them.
ealingfox Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 47 minutes ago, MattP said: The divorce bill is lower than what they wanted according to early briefs, they wanted a full payment originally before trade talks starts, that doesn't happen now. We demanded full reciprocal rights for citizens, we'e got it. We said the Irish border doesn't change, we got that. Why are you so negative over everything the government does? I think you're clutching pretty hard to paint that as a demand that we fought for and won. Isn't that what pretty much anyone on either side bar the most rabid of xenophobes wanted from day 1? Personally i would have thought it went without saying.
Rogstanley Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 1 hour ago, Kopfkino said: The exit bill for the UK will be at least €60bn and Britain’s departure will also change the balance of power in Europe, says Juncker. https://www.ft.com/content/552532c4-0e1f-11e7-a88c-50ba212dce4d So at least 40% knocked off that. Reports vary, the FT says we'll pay between €40bn and €60bn, most seem to put it around £40bn which would be a 25% discount. Not quite 'at least 40%', and it remains unconfirmed.
Rogstanley Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 1 hour ago, MattP said: Three months ago "The bill needs paying, we chose to leave, you need to settle the Irish border, give the EU citizens their rights" *above all happens* Today: "Wasn't even a negotiation, panicked giveaway," This attempt to demonstrate hypocrisy might have worked had the first quote not been completely made up.
Webbo Posted 8 December 2017 Posted 8 December 2017 There was talk at 1 stage of anything between 80 and 100 billion. Now it's going to be 38/39 billion spread over 4 decade. Not quite a win but not bad.
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