Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest Kopfkino]

3 hours ago, toddybad said:

 

Hammond confirms cabinet has not had specific discussion about final Brexit outcome it wants

Q: Has the cabinet discussed the end state, where the UK wants to get to after Brexit?

Hammond says there have been discussions about Brexit, but not a specific one about the end state.

He says the first discussion will come in a cabinet committee.

That can only happen when they know talks will move to phase two. Any discussion before then would be premature, he claims.

 

I'm not going to defend that, I find it to mind-boggling, although there's a difference between having not decided what the end state of phase 2 is (I don't actually know what that means) and not even deciding whether you want to be in or out of CU and SM. I'm not sure why you can't see the problem in the opposition not having a policy position.

 

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I'll be honest, I think the Brexit arguments on here are frankly circular right now, but this I wanted to chip in on with an observation; the last time I checked, Switzerland didn't have a centuries-old sectarian conflict that quite often directly involves its border with another nation - that might yet have an effect on the landscape should the border conditions be changed in the wrong way. 

 

Of course there's political difficulties around it, but the UK has said it will not impose a border, its up to Ireland and the what they do on their side. But the point is Switzerland manage to have a relatively open border that Ireland wants and needs. The technology is there to manage it and the technology will only get better that customs borders will become a thing of the past. It's also a lot easier to manage on the island of Ireland than on the continent.

 

"Giving evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, the director general of Switzerland’s Customs Administration, Christian Bock, suggested it would be “possible” to design a system for an invisible Irish border. In order to achieve this, Bock suggested the need for “common patrols between the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland”, an intelligence-led strategy to ensure safety of cross-border trade, controls away from the border, a pre-qualification system for trusted traders, and a streamlined system to manage “low-risk” or regular trade."

 

But the point is, it's daft for this to be an issue now. It's fundamentally an issue of trade, so for it to have to be any more than 'we won't impose a border' is daft. Until we know the trade arrangements, we have no idea what customs checks there might need to be. For me, the whole value of leaving the EU is being able to negotiate trade deals based on mutual-recognition and reciprocity. That's how we will thrive. The sensible thing would be for that to be incorporated in our future relationship with the EU, but the EU always seems set against that kind of trade deal. If they indeed don't go for that, then I'm not sure what the UK can do beyond the two solutions it has proposed and having said it won't impose a border, surely at that point it's up to the EU to decide how to govern its side of the border.

 

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Ah, it was quoted?

 

Hahaha, fair enough then. 

 

Aye Izzy got carried away on that one. The idea I might "have spoken to a number of lawyers with experience of constitutional affairs who share my doubts that the ECJ would allow us to revoke Article 50 in such a way." seems a little far-fetched  

[Izzy]

17 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Aye Izzy got carried away on that one. The idea I might "have spoken to a number of lawyers with experience of constitutional affairs who share my doubts that the ECJ would allow us to revoke Article 50 in such a way." seems a little far-fetched  

O.K, O.K, I may have missed that minor detail and the fact you didn't write that particular post 

 

But I still maintain you write very well and are far too intelligent for this place 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

As far as I can see only Britain - and more specifically leave voters - thinks things is a game to be won or lost.

Only a loser would think like that.

[Strokes]

8 hours ago, Fox Ulike said:

Good point.

 

I imagine that "I would" can also be interpreted as "I would not..."

 

I've only just seen this, now there is most certainly a pledge. Come on down Gisela.........where are you at?

[foxinexile]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854

 

The above video of David Davis being questioned by Hilary Benn on the lack of Brexit impact assessments borders on excruciating. And yet ... part of me can't help but feel some level of sympathy towards him. I've always wondered if Davis might become the main fall guy if Brexit fails and he seems to be in an impossible position right now - there literally seems no way he can turn to get any kind of positivity out about Brexit at the moment.

Again though, I don't know if it's reasonable (or fair?) to apportion full blame to the current government. Isn't this something Cameron's government should have considered prior to offering the referendum? It might have been hoovered up into the abyss of "Project Fear" but at least we could say we weren't warned. Or, recognising that Brexit isn't something that appeared out of nowhere in 2016, maybe the governments of Blair and Brown should be held accountable or be apportioned some of the blame at least?

Either way, I think the overall opinion that can be cast is that this is an example of political incompetence on a very, very grand scale.  

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, foxinexile said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854

 

The above video of David Davis being questioned by Hilary Benn on the lack of Brexit impact assessments borders on excruciating. And yet ... part of me can't help but feel some level of sympathy towards him. I've always wondered if Davis might become the main fall guy if Brexit fails and he seems to be in an impossible position right now - there literally seems no way he can turn to get any kind of positivity out about Brexit at the moment.

Again though, I don't know if it's reasonable (or fair?) to apportion full blame to the current government. Isn't this something Cameron's government should have considered prior to offering the referendum? It might have been hoovered up into the abyss of "Project Fear" but at least we could say we weren't warned. Or, recognising that Brexit isn't something that appeared out of nowhere in 2016, maybe the governments of Blair and Brown should be held accountable or be apportioned some of the blame at least?

Either way, I think the overall opinion that can be cast is that this is an example of political incompetence on a very, very grand scale.  

There won’t be any blame to be had, if they choose the right option. We will be thanking them, almost overnight I imagine.

[Guest MattP]

31 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I've only just seen this, now there is most certainly a pledge. Come on down Gisela.........where are you at?

Labour politician as well so if they get in we are holding them to it.

 

They promised.

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Labour politician as well so if they get in we are holding them to it.

 

They promised.

I know, it’s pure comedy. That they are using words like let’s and I would is not not a clue to people that they could not pledge anything, then they probably should take up another interest. 

[Claridge]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

As far as I can see only Britain - and more specifically leave voters - thinks things is a game to be won or lost.

Only ones with their knickers in a twist seem to be the ones who don’t like the referendum vote. Get over it we are leaving

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Claridge said:

Only ones with their knickers in a twist seem to be the ones who don’t like the referendum vote. Get over it we are leaving

If it's soft brexit we are. If it is hard brexit or no deal I'm calling it now that there'll be another referendum.

[Charl91]

So basically, Brexit is an absolute omni-shambles  To the surprise of absolutely no-one with an ounce of common sense.

Edited 6 December 2017 by Charl91

[Guest MattP]

Rees-Mogg's Brexit solution to the Irish border question "We simply say (to the EU) 'there is no border, we are not patrolling it. You can do what you like'"

 

That's pretty much it. If Ireland choose to veto on that so be it.

[The Doctor]

37 minutes ago, MattP said:

Rees-Mogg's Brexit solution to the Irish border question "We simply say (to the EU) 'there is no border, we are not patrolling it. You can do what you like'"

 

That's pretty much it. If Ireland choose to veto on that so be it.

And how do you plan to work that under WTO rules? Can't give another nation preferential treatment without a trade deal. No deal with the EU and ignoring the border means zero-tariff to the world - a disaster for UK manufacturers.

[lgfualol]

3 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think some people forget that Brexit is uncharted territory and that there's no 'instruction manual' for it.

 

Any party in charge of overseeing it would struggle imo. It's unprecedented and there's no tried and tested written process for it. The government are learning as they're doing (just as Labour would be if they were in charge of Brexit) and they're bound to make some mistakes along the way.

 

All they're trying to do is implement what the country voted for, in the best way they can, with all the complexities and unknowns involved. It might be great entertainment, but I believe TM when she says they're just trying to do what's best for the U.K.

Personally think they'll bin it 

[lifted*fox]

bwahaha I can smell some "I told you so's" brewing neatly in the air. 

 

[lifted*fox]

this thread (and talking to people who want Brexit in general) only gets better and better as more and more evidence comes to light that nobody has a ****ing clue what they're doing and they have zero proof that Brexit will be a success of any sort. 

 

watching people scramble about clutching hard at straws to keep making positive arguments for it is wonderful entertainment. 

 

won't be long before people start pulling the inevitable u-turns to save face. 

 

 

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

bwahaha I can smell some "I told you so's" brewing neatly in the air. 

 

Why?

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Personally think they'll bin it 

There is zero chance of it being binned, we'd have a crisis in our democracy like never before 

 

The reason a lot of people voted for Brexit was because they have been left behind, just imagine the reaction to it just being overturned, we'd see unpleasantness on a different level to anything else.

 

If they really want to "bin it" they'll just keep us in the single market and the customs union. Effectively does the same thing.

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

And how do you plan to work that under WTO rules? Can't give another nation preferential treatment without a trade deal. No deal with the EU and ignoring the border means zero-tariff to the world - a disaster for UK manufacturers.

You've just said it, no border means zero tariffs.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

You've just said it, no border means zero tariffs.

Oh good, it's pie in the sky time.

If Farage, Rees-Mogg and Gove think it, it must be true.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Oh good, it's pie in the sky time.

If Farage, Rees-Mogg and Gove think it, it must be true.

Pie in the Sky Time > Labour Hokey Cokey Brexit.

[Guest MattP]

Poll of polls for the geeks.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, MattP said:

Pie in the Sky Time > Labour Hokey Cokey Brexit.

Lolz.

 

Monday. Government agrees deal then unagrees deal on the say so of the dup.

 

Tuesday. Brexiteer tory mps write letter to pm demanding red lines

 

Wednesday. Remainer Tories write letter to pm demanding that Brexiteer letter is ignored. David Davis advises that the analysis he said had been thorough hadn't taken into account money and he hasn't even read it. Philip Hammond tells committee cabinet hadn't discussed final deal. An hour later number ten says they will be discussing the final deal before xmas. Philip Hammond tells committee that the UK will pay Brexit bill even if no trade deal. An hour later number ten says nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Boris says we should walk away. WRM says we should tell the EU there's no border. DUP are still running the country and says still work to do on the deal.

 

How you can say anything about labour is bizarre.

 

[Rogstanley]

37 minutes ago, MattP said:

You've just said it, no border means zero tariffs.

Also means we haven’t taken back control of our borders, surely? Hard to see how brexiters are going to be happy with their primary aim* not being achieved 

 

*insofar as border control was the key issue for most brexiters 

[The Doctor]

39 minutes ago, MattP said:

You've just said it, no border means zero tariffs.

Zero tariff for any country. So, to take one example, how do you think British farmers will react to new Zealand lamb flooding the market and blocking them out?