Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Just now, toddybad said:

But much of the western world is booming. We're barely scratching along. Admittedly Brexit  uncertainty has had  significant impact on this also.

 

But we are talking about the last labour government and they could borrow cheaply.

 

Sustained growth since 2013. It's been the slowest recovery in history, a tiny bit of growth is nothing to be celebrated.

At the time. Had the continued to lead the country and not changed course I very much doubt they would have been borrowing cheaply now. 

 

Labour would have also had to cut, and or increase tax. We would have had very high unemployment by now.

 

Much of the Western world is booming with growth rates of 2-3.5% whilst we a scratching along at just under 2% with the uncertainty of Brexit and record employment.  Sustained growth and high employment are massive achievements, much better than boom and bust. I would much rather us have 20 years of slow growth than 5 years boom, 3 years bust, massive job losses rinse repeat. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

At the time. Had the continued to lead the country and not changed course I very much doubt they would have been borrowing cheaply now. 

 

Labour would have also had to cut, and or increase tax. We would have had very high unemployment by now.

 

Much of the Western world is booming with growth rates of 2-3.5% whilst we a scratching along at just under 2% with the uncertainty of Brexit and record employment.  Sustained growth and high employment are massive achievements, much better than boom and bust. I would much rather us have 20 years of slow growth than 5 years boom, 3 years bust, massive job losses rinse repeat. 

Most crashes have occurred under tory governments. This was the first under labour.

[Kopfkino]

13 minutes ago, toddybad said:

But much of the western world is booming. We're barely scratching along. Admittedly Brexit  uncertainty has had  significant impact on this also.

 

 

This is the thing, you make your mind up depending on what you're arguing against at the time.

If Brexit is topic of the day then the recent slowdown is proof of Brexit's effects. If the government's record is topic of the day then it's austerity and not borrowing enough.

 

Between 2013 and 2016 we were the fastest growing of the biggest developed economies.Until last year only Germany could match us in Western Europe. In the last 5 years, only the US beats us in per capita growth. Until last year only Germany could match us in Western Europe. 

The world is doing better now yes, although there's already signs of a European slowdown.

So which is it, the government or Brexit

 

The problem with a strong two party system is politics becomes so binary that public discourse over serious matters becomes pathetic Brexit has added an annoying third factor that has somehow managed to degenerate it further.

Edited 20 April 2018 by Kopfkino

[Guest Foxin_mad]

15 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Most crashes have occurred under tory governments. This was the first under labour.

Ahh yes

 

Tory = Bad  Labour = Good

 

The other crashes were probably due to the global economic climate at the time I am sure. 

 

Well if Comrade Corbyn gets elected then we will see the mother of all economic crashes unfold before us. I just hope there is time to get out of this country before that idiot destroys it.  

 

Interesting reading:

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-which-party-has-a-better-track-record-on-the-economy

Edited 20 April 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

It should also be noted that the decision to destroy the landing cards which proved the arrival of the windrush generation was made in 2009, when if I recall LABOUR were in power.  Nonsense to suggest this is something to do with the Tory right.  Just a bureaucratic screw up - they happen to everyone.

Why on earth should that be noted unless you want to use people's genuine suffering to score cheap political points?

 

Theresa May is in power now. Her policies are what are causing the pain and suffering. The buck stops with her, end of.

[Rogstanley]

2 hours ago, ealingfox said:

 

 

A truly disgusting person who makes me utterly ashamed to be British. Surely it's time we got rid of this horrific monster.

[Guest MattP]

How and when did conspiracy theory websites actually become mainstream? 

 

Even when they peddle news with no quotes or sources, really is strange how it has happened - accountability can't come fast enough.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

A truly disgusting person who makes me utterly ashamed to be British. Surely it's time we got rid of this horrific monster.

Incredible thing is you used to praise her as the home secretary

 

I do agree with you though, can't wait until she's gone and we get a proper Conservative in until 2022.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

How and when did conspiracy theory websites actually become mainstream? 

 

Even when they peddle news with no quotes or sources, really is strange how it has happened - accountability can't come fast enough.

When Breitbart and InfoWars started the trend.

 

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

Incredible thing is you used to praise her as the home secretary

 

I do agree with you though, can't wait until she's gone and we get a proper Conservative in until 2022.

Proper economic or proper social conservative?

[Kopfkino]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

How and when did conspiracy theory websites actually become mainstream? 

 

Even when they peddle news with no quotes or sources, really is strange how it has happened - accountability can't come fast enough.

 

The point that the establishment 'MSM' railed against the divine leader. In fact it makes total sense that the media are the conspiracists and the conspiracy theorists are the enlightened.

 

It's the biggest problem of the internet, any **** can get instant gratification on any view they choose and because nobody even thinks anymore it's lapped up. Lockheed's share price is up but Trump was doing it with or without us anyway, added to it's decent performance over the past couple of years and a positive analyst outlook. BAE's is up a whole 0.18% since and has hit the same mark a few times since the start of the year.

 

 

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Proper economic or proper social conservative?

A proper Conservative means both,

[Kopfkino]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

Incredible thing is you used to praise her as the home secretary

 

I do agree with you though, can't wait until she's gone and we get a proper Conservative in until 2022.

 Isn't she pretty much the definition of the Conservatives post-war until Thatcher?

[CarbonVirtine]

2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

A truly disgusting person who makes me utterly ashamed to be British. Surely it's time we got rid of this horrific monster.

The irony for me is that I gave May a chance.

 

As Home Secretary, I despised her, thought she was hard line and heartless, pursuing what seemed like petty vendettas against the European courts for no other reason than personal validation because someone dared to cross her.

 

Then shortly after her election by default as Tory leader, she gave a little speech about fairness, about 'fat cat' CEOs et al. She seemed to be saying things that I didn't think she was capable of. So I decided to give her a chance. Even during Brexit negotiations, I thought she was actually trying to be even handed (despite her own political leanings), trying to keep the Tory party together and follow through. I appreciated the difficult position she was in and, to an extent, admired the way she was handling it - even whilst disagreeing with a good deal of what she would say (because I believe any flavour Brexit is a mistake)

 

Then over Windrush,  I saw that the May I despised was still there. In answer to a question in the house, she was quite clearly riled. She stared at the questioner, sour school marm face... there she was, that person that would not be crossed. It wasn't politics, it was personal.      

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

A proper Conservative means both,

Does that mean more religious based government then, as that and social conservatism tend to go hand in hand?

 

I thought that wasn't on the agenda?

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Does that mean more religious based government then, as that and social conservatism tend to go hand in hand?

 

I thought that wasn't on the agenda?

Nope, you are looking at it through American eyes.

 

Social values like importance of family, structure and creating a society that upholds things that have seen this spec of the planet tranform much of the World for the better don't have to have anything to do with religion.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Nope, you are looking at it through American eyes.

 

Social values like importance of family, structure and creating a society that upholds things that have seen this spec of the planet tranform much of the World for the better don't have to have anything to do with religion.

Possibly so, but where do you think those social values came from in the first place? And let's not sugarcoat it by not mentioning all the suffering that had to take place for that better world to come about either.

 

Honestly, this one is a little personal to me as I have seen how quite a few social conservatives have worked very hard over here to make the lives of people I know personally a misery, simply because of who they are or who they want to be.

 

So no, I'm not buying.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

 

This is the thing, you make your mind up depending on what you're arguing against at the time.

If Brexit is topic of the day then the recent slowdown is proof of Brexit's effects. If the government's record is topic of the day then it's austerity and not borrowing enough.

 

Between 2013 and 2016 we were the fastest growing of the biggest developed economies.Until last year only Germany could match us in Western Europe. In the last 5 years, only the US beats us in per capita growth. Until last year only Germany could match us in Western Europe. 

The world is doing better now yes, although there's already signs of a European slowdown.

So which is it, the government or Brexit

 

The problem with a strong two party system is politics becomes so binary that public discourse over serious matters becomes pathetic Brexit has added an annoying third factor that has somehow managed to degenerate it further.

Your point about two party politics being binary is fair. Particularly at the moment with both sides miles from the centre.

 

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Ahh yes

 

Tory = Bad  Labour = Good

 

The other crashes were probably due to the global economic climate at the time I am sure. 

 

Well if Comrade Corbyn gets elected then we will see the mother of all economic crashes unfold before us. I just hope there is time to get out of this country before that idiot destroys it.  

 

Interesting reading:

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-which-party-has-a-better-track-record-on-the-economy

70s crisis - Tories in charge - was because of a global oil price hike. Can't really blame the Tories for that.

 

Early 90s crisis - Tories in charge - their fault for joining the ERM and losing the ability to use interest rates to react

 

00s crisis - new labour in charge - global financial crisis caused initially by banks in the US dealing in sub prime mortgages. Rapidly became a worldwide problem. Can't really blame labour for that.

Edited 20 April 2018 by Guest

[Buce]

 

Here's an interesting link for you all to try:

 

https://action.labour.org.uk/page/content/council-cuts-calculator?utm_source=labour&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=cuts_calc

 

Just put in your postcode and see how cuts have affected where you live (you can make up name and email if you're paranoid)

[Rogstanley]

48 minutes ago, MattP said:

Nope, you are looking at it through American eyes.

 

Social values like importance of family, structure and creating a society that upholds things that have seen this spec of the planet tranform much of the World for the better don't have to have anything to do with religion.

Can you give us some examples of how this spec of the planet has "transformed much of the world for the better" and what are the "things" behind it that you want to uphold?

 

And please don't mention poetry again ffs.

Edited 20 April 2018 by Rogstanley

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Can you give us some examples of how this spec of the planet has "transformed much of the world for the better" and what are the "things" behind it that you want to uphold?

 

And please don't mention poetry again ffs.

 

 

[Beechey]

 

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Here's an interesting link for you all to try:

 

https://action.labour.org.uk/page/content/council-cuts-calculator?utm_source=labour&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=cuts_calc

 

Just put in your postcode and see how cuts have affected where you live (you can make up name and email if you're paranoid)

"In CHARNWOOD, your council will have £59 less to spend on your household by 2020 than they had in 2010."

 

Not that bad apparently, considering in 2010 we had a current budget deficit of £100bn. I suspect cities are much worse off in comparison to where I live.

Edited 20 April 2018 by Beechey

[Kopfkino]

956 less in Camden

44 less back home in H&B

 

That's quite a difference

[Guest Foxin_mad]

I would question some of the logic used in that site for calculating too.

 

For instance Labour will count the removal of a Director Business Development (from a council) from jobs as a 'cut'. 

 

As a general rule Labour councils have a reputation of being quite wasteful so it stands to reason, they may have seen bigger 'cuts'

[Webbo]

8 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

This article is wilting under the lights a bit

 

But do you not recogise a conflict of interest there then?

 

More bombs means more profits for the investment company.  Of course he gains

This "journalist" tells us that not only does he knows what's said in May's secret phonecall to Trump but also he was privy to the private conversation Mrs May had with her husband. That immediately sets alarm bells ringing for me, this bloke is either a crank or a Russian bot. Now I have to take his word for it that this business I've never heard of actually exists, Phillip Hammond has some sort of relationship with them and they and him would profit in some way from Syria being bombed, not just by France and America but us as well?

[yorkie1999]

44 quid less to spend on my household. What does that actually mean. And what's the message about rebuilding my community, there's nothing wrong with it, or do they mean, vote labour and help rebuild someone elses community. 

Edited 20 April 2018 by yorkie1999