Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Alf Bentley]

http://www.thejournal.ie/uk-eu-border-3967833-Apr2018/

 

"THE EUROPEAN UNION has roundly rejected proposals from the British government for avoiding a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, the Daily Telegraph has reported. EU sources told the Telegraph that Prime Minister Theresa May’s plans were subjected to a “systematic and forensic annihilation” at a meeting between senior figures on both sides this week. The Telegraph’s source is quoted as saying that it was made clear that “none of the UK’s customs options will work”, as part of a “detailed and forensic rebuttal”. (Telegraph article is subscriber-only, unfortunately)

 

Time is running out on this. If May doesn't soon either produce some new miracle technological solution (whose existence nobody else believes in) or back down and agree to stay in THE Customs Union or A Customs Union with similar rules, the whole process could collapse, leaving us facing a cliff-edge, or there could be a major political crisis (e.g. if May says that N. Ireland will stay in the Customs Union while GB diverges)....

[ealingfox]

12 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Law of unintended consequences my friends.  No one intended these Windrush folks to be put in a difficult position, time they sorted it out.  The rest of that is your left wing bias kicking in.

 

The right wing of the Tory party is not in control, not by a million miles.

 

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

5 minutes ago, toddybad said:

They'd probably start deporting people for no reason and sending round 'go home' vans.

Oh. Wait.......

Apart from they have not actually done that have they?

 

The hyperbole from the left is quite funny.

 

A **** up has happened Rudd has admitted it and they are trying to sort it, at least they put their hands up instead of making up a lie. For example, like someone going on a train, sitting on the floor and claiming its because Virgin Trains and privatisation caused it, when actually it was just because the guy in question was a complete lying belled. 

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, ealingfox said:

 

 

This is for people who do not have the right to remain.  Windrush families do have right to remain, as does anyone who arrived in the UK before 1973.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Just now, ealingfox said:

 

 

That is correct in certain circumstances. For example, this may have been in the context of say Abu Hamza who claimed he had a right to stay in the UK because of his family etc etc bollocks. 

 

The Windrush issue has been a monumental **** up, I don't think anyone has denied that. 

 

Having tough immigration rules for people who take the piss is necessary. The are 2 different things.

[ealingfox]

No right wing bias kicking in there obviously.

[Jon the Hat]

It should also be noted that the decision to destroy the landing cards which proved the arrival of the windrush generation was made in 2009, when if I recall LABOUR were in power.  Nonsense to suggest this is something to do with the Tory right.  Just a bureaucratic screw up - they happen to everyone.

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

No right wing bias kicking in there obviously.

Only if you think restricting immigration is a right wing issue.  Last time I looked a lot of Labour voters were quite keen on it.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Law of unintended consequences my friends.  No one intended these Windrush folks to be put in a difficult position, time they sorted it out.  The rest of that is your left wing bias kicking in.

 

The right wing of the Tory party is not in control, not by a million miles.

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-04-19/windrush-generation-controversy-immigration-policy-lord-kerslake/

 

[Jon the Hat]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-04-19/windrush-generation-controversy-immigration-policy-lord-kerslake/

 

So the Windrush issue, which was caused by a decision under Labour in 2009 was the fault of Home Secretary Theresa May later on?

I can believe the bit about a change in tone, and personally I think that went too far.  Unfortunately it is very difficult to change anything if you let every exception or possible risk derail the process, and if you push things through there are always without exception people who get caught up in it and ****ed over.  The measure of a government is how they respond to that and make it better.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

No right wing bias kicking in there obviously.

Just common sense. There has been a **** up, lets deal with it.

 

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

Only if you think restricting immigration is a right wing issue.  Last time I looked a lot of Labour voters were quite keen on it.

Like the whole of Northern England, and the Midlands for example. Where Labours uncontrolled immigration policy and lack of planning has resulted in large communities of isolated immigrant communities, with no reason to integrate, no jobs, and no facilities. Its been like this for a long time the infrastructure has never been implemented the jobs were never available. Its no wonder these communities become disenchanted/isolated and turn to crime/extremism in some instances. 

 

Quite simply these people shouldn't have been moved there. Unfortunately this is a negative of Labour immigration policy, for some it has driven them to the extreme of blaming immigrants and where they cannot see any positives, the last thing they want is some Islington Socialist lecturing them about the positives of immigration  (there are many) and calling them a racist because they disagree but they are not seeing it!

[ealingfox]

As we've already seen that was a basic distraction May said out of desperation to intentionally mislead the House and give the biased political hacks in the gallery a bone to chew on.

 

Nonetheless it's not the most relevant fact in this situation by half. It wouldn't have ever been an issue unless we had a government as xenophobic and desperate to save face over promises they couldn't keep as the Tory government we have now.

 

It's all entirely consistent with May's ideology and actions as Home Secretary - she is a xenophobe, its pretty plain to see. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

So the Windrush issue, which was caused by a decision under Labour in 2009 was the fault of Home Secretary Theresa May later on?

I can believe the bit about a change in tone, and personally I think that went too far.  Unfortunately it is very difficult to change anything if you let every exception or possible risk derail the process, and if you push things through there are always without exception people who get caught up in it and ****ed over.  The measure of a government is how they respond to that and make it better.

It wasn't caused by a decision in 2009. One decision was made in 2009 and further decisions in 2010 under the Tories. But that's not the root cause. The root cause is the significant shift in public policy which meant people had to try to find 4 separate pierces of proof for every year they've lived in the UK, rather than accepting school records, NHS records etc showing purple have lived here for a long, long time. It's entirely an issue of policy.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

So the Windrush issue, which was caused by a decision under Labour in 2009 was the fault of Home Secretary Theresa May later on?

I can believe the bit about a change in tone, and personally I think that went too far.  Unfortunately it is very difficult to change anything if you let every exception or possible risk derail the process, and if you push things through there are always without exception people who get caught up in it and ****ed over.  The measure of a government is how they respond to that and make it better.

For some people everything bad that happens is the Tories fault.

 

Formula is Tory = Bad   Labour = Good

 

I can acknowledge for instance that the Labour party did do some positive things when they were last in government, they also ****ed a lot up for which we are still seeing the results now. The current Labour party still has some excellent hard working MPs, for instance Ruth Smeeth my local MP is excellent despite not being from the local area, she genuinely does her best for local communities. 

 

Unfortunately the Labour party is run by a far left extremist twat. He is a danger to every single right, service and freedom we have in this country. He is a disgusting man, with questionable ethics who lives behind lie and deceit which many naïve people seem to be falling for worryingly. This man is exactly the same kind of character as despot dictators in South America, Putin, Kims, Assad. 

[ealingfox]

31 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

The hyperbole from the left is quite funny.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

For some people everything bad that happens is the Tories fault.

 

Formula is Tory = Bad   Labour = Good

 

I can acknowledge for instance that the Labour party did do some positive things when they were last in government, they also ****ed a lot up for which we are still seeing the results now. The current Labour party still has some excellent hard working MPs, for instance Ruth Smeeth my local MP is excellent despite not being from the local area, she genuinely does her best for local communities. 

 

Unfortunately the Labour party is run by a far left extremist twat. He is a danger to every single right, service and freedom we have in this country. He is a disgusting man, with questionable ethics who lives behind lie and deceit which many naïve people seem to be falling for worryingly. This man is exactly the same kind of character as despot dictators in South America, Putin, Kims, Assad. 

 

You're the gift that keeps on giving mate.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

For some people everything bad that happens is the Tories fault.

 

Formula is Tory = Bad   Labour = Good

 

I can acknowledge for instance that the Labour party did do some positive things when they were last in government, they also ****ed a lot up for which we are still seeing the results now. The current Labour party still has some excellent hard working MPs, for instance Ruth Smeeth my local MP is excellent despite not being from the local area, she genuinely does her best for local communities. 

 

Unfortunately the Labour party is run by a far left extremist twat. He is a danger to every single right, service and freedom we have in this country. He is a disgusting man, with questionable ethics who lives behind lie and deceit which many naïve people seem to be falling for worryingly. This man is exactly the same kind of character as despot dictators in South America, Putin, Kims, Assad. 

The bold bit really doesn't do enough to neutralise the italics if you're trying to present yourself as unbiased. 

 

Labour didn't **** up the economy. The world financial crisis did. It affected the whole world. Most of the world didn't pursue austerity to the extent we did and recovered faster. The problems we have now are really a Tory problem.

[Jon the Hat]

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It wasn't caused by a decision in 2009. One decision was made in 2009 and further decisions in 2010 under the Tories. But that's not the root cause. The root cause is the significant shift in public policy which meant people had to try to find 4 separate pierces of proof for every year they've lived in the UK, rather than accepting school records, NHS records etc showing purple have lived here for a long, long time. It's entirely an issue of policy.

Trust me I know enough about how hard it is to produce years of evidence like that - especially given banks etc don't keep records forever.  Silly idea designed to restrict more recent migrants which should very clearly not apply for people who have been here for decades.

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

The bold bit really doesn't do enough to neutralise the italics if you're trying to present yourself as unbiased. 

 

Labour didn't **** up the economy. The world financial crisis did. It affected the whole world. Most of the world didn't pursue austerity to the extent we did and recovered faster. The problems we have now are really a Tory problem.

So you are going to completely ignore the fact that Labour wasted billions instead of running a surplus to sort out the national debt?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The bold bit really doesn't do enough to neutralise the italics if you're trying to present yourself as unbiased. 

 

Labour didn't **** up the economy. The world financial crisis did. It affected the whole world. Most of the world didn't pursue austerity to the extent we did and recovered faster. The problems we have now are really a Tory problem.

I didn't say they did in that previous phrase (if you re check) but I disagree. The global financial crisis didn't affect many countries as badly as it did us because they were run better, but we have been around this many times so park it there. 

 

I was referring to other issues:

-Mass immigration

-Poor infrastructure planning  (power, green energy, roads, rail)

-Encouraging the purchase of Diesel cars

-Issuing hospital and school building contracts to dubious companies

-Filling the public sector with non-jobs

-Pathfinder project

-Creating an entitled generation who expect money for nothing

 

Of course they did some good things too

-New hospitals

-Surestart

-New Schools

-Reduced waiting times for NHS

 

To be honest if there was a Labour leader who was a decent centre left politician I could forgive any previous mistakes. But Corbyn.....too far left.

Edited 20 April 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

So you are going to completely ignore the fact that Labour wasted billions instead of running a surplus to sort out the national debt?

I don't think they did waste billions. I don't agree with the concept of having to run surpluses. If you can borrow cheaply there's no issue. I will concede that using private investment to build schools and hospitals instead of simply borrowing it normally was a really crap decision. But the relatively small deficit was fine if no crash had happened. The crash we the problem. Other countries in the same position recovered much faster. You can't blame wages falling in 2018 on banks failing in 2008 and not consider that the policies in between might be at fault. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

16 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I don't think they did waste billions. I don't agree with the concept of having to run surpluses. If you can borrow cheaply there's no issue. I will concede that using private investment to build schools and hospitals instead of simply borrowing it normally was a really crap decision. But the relatively small deficit was fine if no crash had happened. The crash we the problem. Other countries in the same position recovered much faster. You can't blame wages falling in 2018 on banks failing in 2008 and not consider that the policies in between might be at fault. 

 

There is no guarantee you can 'borrow cheaply' this is the problem. To borrow cheaply you have to show some fiscal credibility, which is basically to stop spending money you cant afford to spend. If we had carried on borrowing in 2010 our cost of borrowing would have risen significantly , our credit downgrades would have been much worse. 

 

So which of the 'other' countries  have the following:

 

1. High Employment

2. Running a balanced budget on day to day spending

3. Sustained period of consistent growth since 2013

 

Wages apparently aren't failing in 2018. 

Edited 20 April 2018 by Foxin_mad

[leicsmac]

Regarding degrees, I'll repeat what once said before tbh: the Overton Window is (thankfully) much closer to centre in the UK than in a lot of other places, and as such the current Tory government, though disagreeable in quite a few ways, have a long way to go before being as morally reprehensible as, say, the current US administration (as well as pressure groups in various parts of the country who not only want mass deportations, but actively question the right of certain demographics to exist at all).

 

Doesn't mean that complaints shouldn't be made, but sometimes a little perspective is good IMO.

[Kopfkino]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I don't think they did waste billions. I don't agree with the concept of having to run surpluses. If you can borrow cheaply there's no issue. I will concede that using private investment to build schools and hospitals instead of simply borrowing it normally was a really crap decision. But the relatively small deficit was fine if no crash had happened. The crash we the problem. Other countries in the same position recovered much faster. You can't blame wages falling in 2018 on banks failing in 2008 and not consider that the policies in between might be at fault. 

 

Not gonna lie Toddy, just as I start to think your approach to these arguments makes them worth debating (as points rather than politically) you say absolutely daft stuff like the bolded bit.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Regarding degrees, I'll repeat what once said before tbh: the Overton Window is (thankfully) much closer to centre in the UK than in a lot of other places, and as such the current Tory government, though disagreeable in quite a few ways, have a long way to go before being as morally reprehensible as, say, the current US administration (as well as pressure groups in various parts of the country who not only want mass deportations, but actively question the right of certain demographics to exist at all).

 

Doesn't mean that complaints shouldn't be made, but sometimes a little perspective is good IMO.

Very true indeed. 

 

Government is always going to make mistakes, its how they resolve it that matters.

 

At the end of the day Rudd has stood up in Parliament and apologised, she has said she will do her best to resolve it. She has fully taken ownership of it. Its an unfortunate situation that some people have been put in a pretty awful situation. 

Edited 20 April 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Not gonna lie Toddy, just as I start to think your approach to these arguments makes them worth debating (as points rather than politically) you say absolutely daft stuff like the bolded bit.

But much of the western world is booming. We're barely scratching along. Admittedly Brexit  uncertainty has had  significant impact on this also.

 

36 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

 

There is no guarantee you can 'borrow cheaply' this is the problem. To borrow cheaply you have to show some fiscal credibility, which is basically to stop spending money you cant afford to spend. If we had carried on borrowing in 2010 our cost of borrowing would have risen significantly , our credit downgrades would have been much worse. 

 

So which of the 'other' countries  have the following:

 

1. High Employment

2. Running a balanced budget on day to day spending

3. Sustained period of consistent growth since 2013

 

Wages apparently aren't failing in 2018. 

But we are talking about the last labour government and they could borrow cheaply.

 

Sustained growth since 2013. It's been the slowest recovery in history, a tiny bit of growth is nothing to be celebrated.