Alf Bentley Posted 22 April 2018 Posted 22 April 2018 26 minutes ago, MattP said: Depending on candidate as well of course, I'd vote for the SWP over someone like Morgan or Soubry. You'd have to change your user name to TrotP if you did that. 15 minutes ago, Facecloth said: And I'd probably edge towards labour to keep Boris, Gove, Rudd, May, Hunt and potentially JRM away from running the country again, but I don't really want to vote for Labour. In fact I think the militant, always vote for the same party types and those who blindly vote the same way everytime hold the power without knowing it. They're probably the least politically informed of all people who vote, but because they never change the rest of us know we have to vote tactically, rather than for a party we'd actually like to vote for, to keep the lesser of two evils (in our opinion) out. I only voted labour last time because nobody else stood a chance of beating the Tories in Loughborough. At the risk of getting on my hobby horse again, our electoral system is the main problem there. In 2001, I cast a protest vote for the Lib Dems in a Labour seat as I was furious that Labour had reneged on its 1997 promise to hold a referendum on electoral reform - at a time when it might have been won. Massively short-sighted to just maximise immediate power with no thought to improving democracy - or even to the likelihood that one day another govt will be voted in, which will undo everything you've done with your "absolute power". I went along to my local (Labour) MP's surgery and harangued him about PR. He told me opposed it because FPTP delivered "strong government".... it doesn't even deliver majority govts any more - and majority govt ain't the same as "strong govt". I feel like going back to see him now, to ask him whether he still thinks the same now. 4
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 22 April 2018 Author Posted 22 April 2018 Well at least we could have a new centerist party to look forward to in the near future ?
Strokes Posted 22 April 2018 Posted 22 April 2018 2 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said: Well at least we could have a new centerist party to look forward to in the near future ? That’s where all the nonces will go. 1
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 22 April 2018 Author Posted 22 April 2018 8 minutes ago, Strokes said: That’s where all the nonces will go. So you’ll be voting for them then? HA! 1
Guest Posted 22 April 2018 Posted 22 April 2018 Bank of England 'dangerously ill-equipped' for next recession, says IPPR https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/22/bank-of-england-dangerously-ill-equipped-for-next-recession-says-ippr?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Guest Posted 22 April 2018 Posted 22 April 2018 Even more evidence to damn this shitshow government Government aware for years that 'hostile environment' hurt Windrush generation https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/22/government-aware-for-years-that-hostile-environment-hurt-windrush-generation?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Sharpe's Fox Posted 22 April 2018 Posted 22 April 2018 2 hours ago, MattP said: It's quite baffling how many are still prepared to vote Labour despite also realising the leader isn't a serious choice to lead the country. they want social justice
Sharpe's Fox Posted 22 April 2018 Posted 22 April 2018 1 hour ago, Strokes said: That’s where all the nonces will go. 1
Guest Kopfkino Posted 22 April 2018 Posted 22 April 2018 53 minutes ago, toddybad said: Bank of England 'dangerously ill-equipped' for next recession, says IPPR https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/22/bank-of-england-dangerously-ill-equipped-for-next-recession-says-ippr?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard It's actually a real shame the IPPR picked up on an actual problem and used it to tell the government to spend money (maybe the Guardian only reported that bit). I'd say most people don't quite realise the absolute shit central bankers are in, the problem of slow policy normalisation, the problem of undoing qe, and the arguments to change their target away from inflation.
Guest Posted 22 April 2018 Posted 22 April 2018 Just now, Kopfkino said: It's actually a real shame the IPPR picked up on an actual problem and used it to tell the government to spend money (maybe the Guardian only reported that bit). I'd say most people don't quite realise the absolute shit central bankers are in, the problem of slow policy normalisation, the problem of undoing qe, and the arguments to change their target away from inflation. I realise, or at least I believe, that we're in a hugely difficult place in terms of fiscal policy. To the point I genuinely think it's difficult to see how we can avoid an economic cataclysm given the state of interest rates/personal debt/tenuous wage situation/ridiculous, untenable house prices etc etc etc We have to do something and spending in the right areas at least gives us a chance of increasing growth. We can't carry on with a moribund economy and failing public services. Nothing is in good shape atm. It's managed decline.
Guest MattP Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 A fitting tribute to the age we live in. The most bizarre thing she tweeted was about a lack of evidence in the Jo Cox case.
Guest MattP Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: At the risk of getting on my hobby horse again, our electoral system is the main problem there. In 2001, I cast a protest vote for the Lib Dems in a Labour seat as I was furious that Labour had reneged on its 1997 promise to hold a referendum on electoral reform - at a time when it might have been won. Massively short-sighted to just maximise immediate power with no thought to improving democracy - or even to the likelihood that one day another govt will be voted in, which will undo everything you've done with your "absolute power". I went along to my local (Labour) MP's surgery and harangued him about PR. He told me opposed it because FPTP delivered "strong government".... it doesn't even deliver majority govts any more - and majority govt ain't the same as "strong govt". I feel like going back to see him now, to ask him whether he still thinks the same now. You should try and contact him, although there is just no realistically prospect of it happening now, we are back into a two party politics era for the foreseeable future by the looks of it. It's one of the reasons people should often think twice about tactical voting, if you are switching from a minority party you agree with to one of the biggest ones just to kick another out you are harming the chance of moving to another system - though I can't criticise anyone on that as at this point in time I'd vote Labour in any seat they in a direct fight with the Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, Greens or any other overtly pro-EU party. (barring 10/15 Labour MP's of course who I couldn't bring myself to vote for). It's a moot point now anyway, with Labour and the Tories polling at over 80% between them they won't be making any plans to change it - and I still don't think the British people would vote to change it anyway given the chance. Edited 23 April 2018 by MattP
Guest Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 59 minutes ago, MattP said: You should try and contact him, although there is just no realistically prospect of it happening now, we are back into a two party politics era for the foreseeable future by the looks of it. It's one of the reasons people should often think twice about tactical voting, if you are switching from a minority party you agree with to one of the biggest ones just to kick another out you are harming the chance of moving to another system - though I can't criticise anyone on that as at this point in time I'd vote Labour in any seat they in a direct fight with the Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, Greens or any other overtly pro-EU party. (barring 10/15 Labour MP's of course who I couldn't bring myself to vote for). It's a moot point now anyway, with Labour and the Tories polling at over 80% between them they won't be making any plans to change it - and I still don't think the British people would vote to change it anyway given the chance. A crying shame though. It's a hugely unfair system and having more minority party voices in parliament would be good for the country.
Guest MattP Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: A crying shame though. It's a hugely unfair system and having more minority party voices in parliament would be good for the country. I'm still to be convinced on that, the most obvious impact of PR is that extremes from both sides end up in the national parliament, I'm not sure I see that as good. I did some reading on the Knesset a few months back and that was a great argument for FPTP rather than PR - the main parties like Likud there have to implement often extreme policy to avoid more votes going to YIsreali and Torah parties. I do agree it's absurd UKIP and the Greens had so little representation though in 2015 after they both got a serious number of votes. How would it work for parties like Plaid, the DUP and the SNP as well who only stand in certain nations, PC won three seats in 2001 yet got less votes than the BNP did.
Guest Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, MattP said: I'm still to be convinced on that, the most obvious impact of PR is that extremes from both sides end up in the national parliament, I'm not sure I see that as good. I did some reading on the Knesset a few months back and that was a great argument for FPTP rather than PR - the main parties like Likud there have to implement often extreme policy to avoid more votes going to YIsreali and Torah parties. I do agree it's absurd UKIP and the Greens had so little representation though in 2015 after they both got a serious number of votes. How would it work for parties like Plaid, the DUP and the SNP as well who only stand in certain nations, PC won three seats in 2001 yet got less votes than the BNP did. I guess you'd have to have a set % of the total allocated to each of the four constituent parts - England, Scotland, Wales and n.Ireland and then have separate PR coverage for each. Simple enough. With regard to who would win seats and have a say - either you believe in free speech or you don't Matty. Edited 23 April 2018 by Guest
Guest MattP Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 8 minutes ago, toddybad said: I guess you'd have to have a set % of the total allocated to each of the four constituent parts - England, Scotland, Wales and n.Ireland and then have separate PR coverage for each. Simple enough. With regard to who would win seats and have a say - either you believe in free speech or you don't Matty. I'm certainly not denying freedom of speech, I'm just saying I'm not convinced having more minority voices in parliament would be good for the country, bit of a difference.
leicsmac Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 3 hours ago, MattP said: I'm certainly not denying freedom of speech, I'm just saying I'm not convinced having more minority voices in parliament would be good for the country, bit of a difference. 1 It's a thorny one. There are some minority views that perhaps should be brought into the mainstream for the future good as soon as possible, but there are others that really really should not, and I guess you've got to consider all of them or none of them. For every UBI activist (and that's still a pretty minority view right now AFAIK) there's a Richard Spencer.
Wymsey Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 (edited) The UK is likely to leave The Customs Union. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43860453 Edited 23 April 2018 by Wymeswold fox
Guest Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 1 hour ago, Wymeswold fox said: The UK is likely to leave The Customs Union. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43860453 What happens when the commons vote for a customs union or even to stay in the existing one?
Strokes Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 1 hour ago, toddybad said: What happens when the commons vote for a customs union or even to stay in the existing one? We will end up having another GE.
Claridge Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 7 hours ago, toddybad said: I guess you'd have to have a set % of the total allocated to each of the four constituent parts - England, Scotland, Wales and n.Ireland and then have separate PR coverage for each. Simple enough. With regard to who would win seats and have a say - either you believe in free speech or you don't Matty. I think a far right group with a charastmatic leader would do really well under PR.Certainly hold the balance of power I should think. Careful what you wish for
Guest MattP Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 1 hour ago, toddybad said: What happens when the commons vote for a customs union or even to stay in the existing one? Still don't see that happening. What would you need? 15 Tory MP's going against it? I think it will be close but the whips should have enough room to get it through with the handful of Labour ones who'll vote with the government. Amazing to think Corbyn himself would be voting with the Tory Brexiteers were he on the back benches.
Guest Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: Still don't see that happening. What would you need? 15 Tory MP's going against it? I think it will be close but the whips should have enough room to get it through with the handful of Labour ones who'll vote with the government. Amazing to think Corbyn himself would be voting with the Tory Brexiteers were he on the back benches. But he isn't. It's a pointless point. Teresa May didn't want Brexit at all (and still doesn't judging by her refusal to say otherwise) but is still pushing it through. Everything I've read suggests it might be a hard vote for the government to win. 18 minutes ago, Strokes said: We will end up having another GE. Don't think so. Unless the Tories change leader. But there's talk of internal wargaming suggesting that Boris and Gove still won't resign if a vote is lost which makes it much harder for the likes of JRM to fight May. Tbh I suspect May would quite like to be in the customs union (given she's a remainer) but doesn't feel able to say so given the views of the membership.
leicsmac Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 11 minutes ago, Claridge said: I think a far right group with a charastmatic leader would do really well under PR.Certainly hold the balance of power I should think. Careful what you wish for 'tis a possibility, yes. Though that's more a judgement on the people voting in such a system than the system itself IMO.
Strokes Posted 23 April 2018 Posted 23 April 2018 3 minutes ago, toddybad said: But he isn't. It's a pointless point. Teresa May didn't want Brexit at all (and still doesn't judging by her refusal to say otherwise) but is still pushing it through. Everything I've read suggests it might be a hard vote for the government to win. Don't think so. Unless the Tories change leader. But there's talk of internal wargaming suggesting that Boris and Gove still won't resign if a vote is lost which makes it much harder for the likes of JRM to fight May. Tbh I suspect May would quite like to be in the customs union (given she's a remainer) but doesn't feel able to say so given the views of the membership. The government are making it a vote of no confidence..... 1
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