Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[David Guiza]

20 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

I mean if it was up to me, the state would be removed from higher education and the student would have a direct contract with the university whereby they agree to pay a % of their future earnings to the university. So the university has equity in the premium the graduate will make, giving the university incentive to produce high earning graduates. A university has an economic interest in their students and compete to offer the best students to the marketplace.

 

I fully appreciate the sentiment, but again that's just assuming that the sole reason of going to University is to become a lawyer/doctor/other high earning profession. It would suit me to a large extent as a law graduate whom is (hopefully) going to earn well for the majority of my life, but what about nurses for example, or those who just wish to go to University to learn something? University can be about more than just a means to an end for a high earning salary. 

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It's there to give everybody the opportunity to be the best they can and have the best possible start in life. Tuition fees and huge loans add nothing to this.

That's primary school.

 

University is there to extend the skills you have developed (usually because you are better than the norm) as an adult.

 

Anyone at any age within reason can go to university. 

Edited 11 July 2017 by MattP

[Carl the Llama]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

All those arguments have been addressed already. It's only 9% on anything over 21k, a lot will pay less than their debt or nothing and the govt can divert a graduate tax away from the universities.

So you also support an extra 5% income tax over £80k?

 

Just now, Innovindil said:

Hard to find honest friends these days. 

Oh so you've told him to his face that he got what he deserves?

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Couldn't particularly give a shite how it comes across in all honesty. He spent 4 years partying and shagging birds and failed his course. I spent 4 years studying (and working to pay for it!) and landed an acceptable job. And he's not even an uncommon exception. 

 

Now he (and his ilk) goes down as a "less fortunate" and I go down as "lucky". When in reality I've been anything but lucky in anything I've done in life. 

 

Sorry and all. You can't burst that bubble. 

 

 

 

Yes, you have. Just being born and growing up in the UK (assuming that you were), allowing for a stable household, good nutrition and education was lucky for you and gave you a good start. There are a myriad of other events throughout the course of your life, most of which are likely not even thought about, over which you didn't have control, that didn't leave you dead, crippled or destitute. That's luck.

 

You may have made the most of the opportunities you were given but don't act like luck isn't a factor in everyone's lives - because it is.

[Innovindil]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

So you also support an extra 5% income tax over £80k?

 

Oh so you've told him to his face that he got what he deserves?

First thing I said to him when he told me that he'd failed is "maybe partying every weekend wasn't a good idea mate" 

 

His reply I hear you ask? 

 

"you're right" 

[Darkon84]

21 minutes ago, davieG said:

DeMontfort Uni seems to have plenty of cash to splash on vanity projects, fancy buildings, taking over roads etc where does that all come from?

 

To be fair, the new building is at the forefront of the Passivhaus movement and the carbon reductions from a general 'new build' are ridiculously good. If it (unfortunately) wasn't so expensive to do, all buildings should be built to similar standards. In that regard, the regulations are constantly getting tighter by roughly 10% per year, so perhaps within our lifetime, buildings with such effective carbon reduction techniques may be commonplace. The fact it's seen as a vanity project at the moment is simply because of the price and the look. Paying the extra money up front for that will be repaid over the buildings lifetime.

 

I'm not starting a debate, just giving another side to the argument btw 

Edited 11 July 2017 by Darkon84

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, David Guiza said:

I fully appreciate the sentiment, but again that's just assuming that the sole reason of going to University is to become a lawyer/doctor/other high earning profession. It would suit me to a large extent as a law graduate whom is (hopefully) going to earn well for the majority of my life, but what about nurses for example, or those who just wish to go to University to learn something? University can be about more than just a means to an end for a high earning salary. 

Some people go to university to do a course they enjoy, should a shelf stacker at Tesco really have to pay more in tax so the daughter of a millionaire can study art at De Montfort? 

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Innovindil said:

First thing I said to him when he told me that he'd failed is "maybe partying every weekend wasn't a good idea mate" 

 

His reply I hear you ask? 

 

"you're right" 

You didn't mention anything about him failing before.  Not so honest after all.

[Innovindil]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yes, you have. Just being born and growing up in the UK (assuming that you were), allowing for a stable household, good nutrition and education was lucky for you and gave you a good start. There are a myriad of other events throughout the course of your life, most of which are likely not even thought about, over which you didn't have control, that didn't leave you dead, crippled or destitute. That's luck.

 

You may have made the most of the opportunities you were given but don't act like luck isn't a factor in everyone's lives - because it is.

1 out of 3 is lucky I guess 

 

Although admittedly, when I'm talking about being successful in the UK I am talking about those born in the UK who start with the same opportunities. Obviously not including migrants who would have massively significant disadvantages. 

 

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yes, you have. Just being born and growing up in the UK (assuming that you were), allowing for a stable household, good nutrition and education was lucky for you and gave you a good start. There are a myriad of other events throughout the course of your life, most of which are likely not even thought about, over which you didn't have control, that didn't leave you dead, crippled or destitute. That's luck.

 

You may have made the most of the opportunities you were given but don't act like luck isn't a factor in everyone's lives - because it is.

I thought the UK was now full of poverty, inequality and our education system was being torn to shreds? 

 

Make your mind up

[Innovindil]

2 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Couldn't particularly give a shite how it comes across in all honesty. He spent 4 years partying and shagging birds and failed his course. I spent 4 years studying (and working to pay for it!) and landed an acceptable job. And he's not even an uncommon exception. 

 

Now he (and his ilk) goes down as a "less fortunate" and I go down as "lucky". When in reality I've been anything but lucky in anything I've done in life. 

 

Sorry and all. You can't burst that bubble. 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

You didn't mention anything about him failing before.  Not so honest after all.

 

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Innovindil said:

 

 

Furry muff I missed that comment.  I still wouldn't want to be friends with somebody as unsupportive as you're portraying yourself.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

1 out of 3 is lucky I guess 

 

Although admittedly, when I'm talking about being successful in the UK I am talking about those born in the UK who start with the same opportunities. Obviously not including migrants who would have massively significant disadvantages. 

 

Lucky enough.

 

Equality of opportunity across the board has never been a thing, not in the UK nor anywhere else at any time in history - there are way too many random elements within individuals, groups and societies in general. Luck is always a factor, and I wanted to make sure that was abundantly clear.

 

1 minute ago, MattP said:

I thought the UK was now full of poverty, inequality and our education system was being torn to shreds? 

 

Make your mind up

Oh yeah, I rag on it in true James Baldwin style but it's still better than most places around the world. Being born in the UK does confer advantages that you don't necessarily get in other places around the world.

 

 

 

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

Furry muff I missed that comment.  I still wouldn't want to be friends with somebody as unsupportive as you're portraying yourself.

Good job no one is asking you to be my friend I guess. 

[Guest]

I think the one lesson we can all take is that since the nasty party made it's comeback in 2010 its supporters have become ever more rabid to the point that it's genuinely scary how far they'd be in ripping apart the fabric of our society and forcing 'the market' onto everything. Nothing is more important than the market. Society doesn't exist. Society shouldn't pay for anything. 

 

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Some people go to university to do a course they enjoy, should a shelf stacker at Tesco really have to pay more in tax so the daughter of a millionaire can study art at De Montfort? 

Should I pay more tax because you get sick? Should Webbo pay more tax because Carl the Llama has 3 kids (he may or may not) that go to school? Should Innovindil's mate pay more tax in the event that Innovindil becomes so successful that he gets into the game of hiding his money in offshore accounts? 

 

I could also add should you pay more tax because of Tory inheritance tax cuts? Should I pay more tax because you voted for a poorer economy through Brexit?

 

Most importantly, should the young pay a 9% graduate tax so that the government can reduce a deficit they did nothing to create whilst corporation taxes on the banks are reduced (and before you get started corporation tax income increases have occurred for a myriad of reasons not linked to reducing the tax rate - one of which is the profitability of banks increasing over the last few years)?

[Webbo]

13 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

So you also support an extra 5% income tax over £80k?

 

 

No, going to Uni is a choice. 

[katieakita]

http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-eus-exit-bill-demand-extortionate-10944564

 

Send for Rudkin

[davieG]

11 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

 

To be fair, the new building is at the forefront of the Passivhaus movement and the carbon reductions from a general 'new build' are ridiculously good. If it (unfortunately) wasn't so expensive to do, all buildings should be built to similar standards. In that regard, the regulations are constantly getting tighter by roughly 10% per year, so perhaps within our lifetime, buildings with such effective carbon reduction techniques may be commonplace. The fact it's seen as a vanity project at the moment is simply because of the price and the look. Paying the extra money up front for that will be repaid over the buildings lifetime.

 

I'm not starting a debate, just giving another side to the argument btw 

I didn't intend to start a debate was just an observation and a simple question.

 

I understand re the environmental issues, perhaps I shouldn't have included buildings but it does seem rather like empire building with all the older buildings they've taken over, again I'm all for retaining these.

 

Rather the point I was making was they seem to be awash with money that is not being directly spent on courses  so my question was where is this money coming if not from the students?

[leicsmac]

On a slightly different note, seems like there's a bit of a sticking point regarding Euratom in the discussions to leave the EU.

 

Brexit seems to be far-reaching - including handling of nuclear material. Who'd have thought?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/11/uk-should-stay-euratom-nuclear-body-labour-brexit-keir-starmer

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/08/must-save-vital-nuclear-treaty-allies-eu/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_fb_tmg

 

This, of course, being one of a group of scientific issues that Brexit will end up affecting.

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Innovindil said:

Good job no one is asking you to be my friend I guess. 

Not for you, I take good care of my friends instead of demanding they be strung up for their mistakes. 

 

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

No, going to Uni is a choice. 

Try telling that to the young people who don't have degrees and are being told it's the reason employers won't give them a chance.

[Webbo]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

 

Most importantly, should the young pay a 9% graduate tax so that the government can reduce a deficit they did nothing to create whilst corporation taxes on the banks are reduced (and before you get started corporation tax income increases have occurred for a myriad of reasons not linked to reducing the tax rate - one of which is the profitability of banks increasing over the last few years)?

When you say did nothing to create, didn't those kids have 13 years free schooling, NHS care, the use of infrastructure? It all costs money.

Btw it's actually to pay for their tuition, not the deficit.

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I think the one lesson we can all take is that since the nasty party made it's comeback in 2010 its supporters have become ever more rabid to the point that it's genuinely scary how far they'd be in ripping apart the fabric of our society and forcing 'the market' onto everything. Nothing is more important than the market. Society doesn't exist. Society shouldn't pay for anything. 

 

 

You don't do self awareness do you

[Webbo]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

Not for you, I take good care of my friends instead of demanding they be strung up for their mistakes. 

 

Try telling that to the young people who don't have degrees and are being told it's the reason employers won't give them a chance.

Maybe they shouldn't be applying for jobs that require a degree then?

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Webbo said:

Maybe they shouldn't be applying for jobs that require a degree then?

So the choice is get a degree or take a job that pays minimum wage.  Truly thou art compassion incarnate.

[Webbo]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

So the choice is get a degree or take a job that pays minimum wage.  Truly thou art compassion incarnate.

I think there are plenty of jobs in between.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, katieakita said:

http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-eus-exit-bill-demand-extortionate-10944564

 

Send for Rudkin

Jesus Christ the Tories really are taking us in the abyss.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

When you say did nothing to create, didn't those kids have 13 years free schooling, NHS care, the use of infrastructure? It all costs money.

You don't do self awareness do you

The difference is Webbo, I'm arguing for things that will enrich people's lives. You are arguing for the removal of the state and an everybody for themselves society.