Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Sorry, misinformed isolationism that was a significant factor in contributing to the just over 50% decision to make this country's biggest mistake since Blair got in bed with Dubya.

 

Is that better?

You've got to get over this. We had a huge campaign here with two sides putting an argument forward and ours won the day.

 

This is a person on the radio, one person. It carries as much weight in the overall debate as the idiot on QT who said he voted remain as Niger Farage is a hate preacher or a person I know who thought leaving meant Leicester wouldn't be allowed to play in the Champions League.

 

Fact is two options were presented to the country about its future and our option was the one that people picked. That's democracy for you.

 

Idiots get exploited in every election, I mean just look at the vote Corbyn managed to pick up last month on tried and failed economic policy and unaffordable bribes.

 

For some people leaving the EU will be good, for some it will be bad - there is no right or wrong answer.

[Carl the Llama]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Wanting to have a govt that's answerable to the voters isn't isolationist.

 

It's all a matter of opinion though. I don't think it was a mistake at all.

You're doing that thing again where person A will make a statement about somebody(/ies) on the same side of the debate as you so you determine that it must mean they're talking about you personally before giving your own view as proof that person A must be wrong.

[Guest MattP]

Has anyone met one leaver since the referendum who would now vote to remain?

 

I haven't and I speak to loads. 

[Webbo]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

You're doing that thing again where person A will make a statement about somebody(/ies) on the same side of the debate as you so you determine that it must mean they're talking about you personally before giving your own view as proof that person A must be wrong.

No, I was talking generally. I've not heard anyone say we want nothing to do with the rest of the world or even just Europe.

[Buce]

19 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

How can you have been an MP since 2010 and still use phrases like that?

 

I'd be more forgiving had she been 80 odd but really thats poor...

 

Was a good question though  just badly phrased - Not an advert for being 'in touch' with the people though really is it.

 

She is 60, I think.

 

A lot of people of that generation find the changing rules of politically correct language difficult to keep up with. When I was young, someone who had parents of different races were referred to as half-caste; at some stage that became unacceptable and mixed race became the correct term; now, I understand it has to be dual heritage.

 

Bearing in mind that she probably exists in a bubble where she mixes only with people who are either of similar age and/or dismissive of political correctness, I don't find it particularly surprising. I think the real story here is that it passed without comment from all of those present.

 

And I think that thoughtlessly using an outdated idiom isn't quite the same as referring to someone as a n****r.

[Nick]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

She is 60, I think.

 

A lot of people of that generation find the changing rules of politically correct language difficult to keep up with. When I was young, someone who had parents of different races were referred to as half-caste; at some stage that became unacceptable and mixed race became the correct term; now, I understand it has to be dual heritage.

 

Bearing in mind that she probably exists in a bubble where she mixes only with people who are either of similar age and/or dismissive of political correctness, I don't find it particularly surprising. I think the real story here is that it passed without comment from all of those present.

 

And I think that thoughtlessly using an outdated idiom isn't quite the same as referring to someone as a n****r.

 

Whilst I quite agree with most of that - if you are going to be an MP - your job is to represent people.

 

Anybody using that term despite being 60 shouldn't be living in a bubble - its part of whats wrong with this country.

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Webbo said:

No, I was talking generally. I've not heard anyone say we want nothing to do with the rest of the world or even just Europe.

Well in that case by using that generalisation as though it proves the point I was making is wrong you're de facto renouncing the idea that the portion of society I was specifically addressing is even a thing.  There you go, @MattP, somebody who has denied they exist after all.  

 

And for what it's worth the 'control of our borders' argument is textbook isolationist thinking when you consider the level of control we already dispose of.  Sure, it may not be advocating going full blown DPRK but this is going to be a long afternoon if I have to keep coming back to explain my words you because you want to play dictionary pedant Webs.  (And to save you the effort: No, wanting to reduce immigration isn't isolationist in of itself but the point you're desperately ignoring is that it appealed to many who do hold those views.  And no I'm not calling you and every leaver a racist.)

 

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

You've got to get over this. We had a huge campaign here with two sides putting an argument forward and ours won the day.

 

This is a person on the radio, one person. It carries as much weight in the overall debate as the idiot on QT who said he voted remain as Niger Farage is a hate preacher or a person I know who thought leaving meant Leicester wouldn't be allowed to play in the Champions League.

 

Fact is two options were presented to the country about its future and our option was the one that people picked. That's democracy for you.

 

Idiots get exploited in every election, I mean just look at the vote Corbyn managed to pick up last month on tried and failed economic policy and unaffordable bribes.

 

For some people leaving the EU will be good, for some it will be bad - there is no right or wrong answer.

Tbf that's all true.  I do still maintain that the misinformation on the part of the leave voters was of a more sinister nature  After all I can't imagine anybody seriously arguing that a decision to remain in the EU could come from a position of malice towards anyone, however the opposite is undeniably the case for some individuals.

[Guest MattP]

Anne Marie Morris has the whip withdrawn and will now sit as an independent, suspended from the party.

[Webbo]

8 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Well in that case by using that generalisation as though it proves the point I was making is wrong you're de facto renouncing the idea that the portion of society I was specifically addressing is even a thing.  There you go, @MattP, somebody who has denied they exist after all.  

 

And for what it's worth the 'control of our borders' argument is textbook isolationist thinking when you consider the level of control we already dispose of.  Sure, it may not be advocating going full blown DPRK but this is going to be a long afternoon if I have to keep coming back to explain my words you because you want to play dictionary pedant Webs.  (And to save you the effort: No, wanting to reduce immigration isn't isolationist in of itself but the point you're desperately ignoring is that it appealed to many who do hold those views.  And no I'm not calling you and every leaver a racist.)

 

Tbf that's all true.  I do still maintain that the misinformation on the part of the leave voters was of a more sinister nature  After all I can't imagine anybody seriously arguing that a decision to remain in the EU could come from a position of malice towards anyone, however the opposite is undeniably the case for some individuals.

I can't say nobody voted for that reason but I'd imagine it was a tiny percentage if anyone did.

 

As for the rest, you keep telling me what I mean, first you tell me I was only talking about myself and then you talk about  controlling borders when I didn't mention it, 

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

I can't say nobody voted for that reason but I'd imagine it was a tiny percentage if anyone did.

 

As for the rest, you keep telling me what I mean, first you tell me I was only talking about myself and then you talk about  controlling borders when I didn't mention it, 

I told you that because you responded my post about a clearly defined subsection of society ("the ignorant masses rushing into a decision based on completely erroneous beliefs") with a retort which described your own reason for voting to leave as though it disproved what I was saying when it patently didn't (I even kindly ignored your own erroneous suggestion that the EU isn't answerable to voters which has been addressed to death in the pre-ref thread and essentially implies that our own govt isn't answerable to voters either since they're a fundamental part of exactly how the EU is made to be answerable).  The borders talk was me explaining what about these people's world view could be considered isolationist, you know, because you'd questioned it.

 

By all means feel free to raise an issue with my rhetoric but don't give me all these stupid tangential arguments.

[Webbo]

4 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I told you that because you responded my post about a clearly defined subsection of society ("the ignorant masses rushing into a decision based on completely erroneous beliefs") with a retort which described your own reason for voting to leave as though it disproved what I was saying when it patently didn't (I even kindly ignored your own erroneous suggestion that the EU isn't answerable to voters which has been addressed to death in the pre-ref thread and essentially implies that our own govt isn't answerable to voters either since they're a fundamental part of exactly how the EU is made to be answerable).  The borders talk was me explaining what about these people's world view could be considered isolationist, you know, because you'd questioned it.

 

By all means feel free to raise an issue with my rhetoric but don't give me all these stupid tangential arguments.

If you use the word isolationist, it isn't unreasonable of me to assume you mean isolationist. I hadn't heard anyone say they used that as a reason to vote out. I wasn't talking about myself, I was talking generally about brexit voters.

 

As for brexit voters being ignorant and voting on erroneous beliefs, that was done to death too.

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

If you use the word isolationist, it isn't unreasonable of me to assume you mean isolationist. I hadn't heard anyone say they used that as a reason to vote out. I wasn't talking about myself, I was talking generally about brexit voters.

 

As for brexit voters being ignorant and voting on erroneous beliefs, that was done to death too.

Yeah that's fair and why I felt compelled to clarify.  Again though I was talking about a specific subset of leavers, you telling me what in your opinion the entire set thinks doesn't address the smaller portion I was talking about.

[Buce]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Anne Marie Morris has the whip withdrawn and will now sit as an independent, suspended from the party.

 

Forgive my ignorance, Matt, but what exactly does that mean?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Forgive my ignorance, Matt, but what exactly does that mean?

 

She's on the naughty step, but can still enter the same lobbies as her friends.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

Forgive my ignorance, Matt, but what exactly does that mean?

Means she's officially not a Tory MP. But she can still vote on things. But she's not considered party of the party and can't attend any of its events.

 

In reality it doesn't make top much difference unless the choose to expel her.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

She's on the naughty step, but can still enter the same lobbies as her friends.

 

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Means she's officially not a Tory MP. But she can still vote on things. But she's not considered party of the party and can't attend any of its events.

 

In reality it doesn't make top much difference unless the choose to expel her.

 

Thanks, guys.

 

Is that a permanent state of affairs?

[Webbo]

Just now, Buce said:

 

 

Thanks, guys.

 

Is that a permanent state of affairs?

Could be but I doubt it. She'll probably be let back in at a later date, assuming she wants to.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Has anyone met one leaver since the referendum who would now vote to remain?

 

I haven't and I speak to loads. 

Not a single one. My family and friends are by and large evenly split on it. Nobody has given an inch.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Not a single one. My family and friends are by and large evenly split on it. Nobody has given an inch.

 

For me, this is not the point... people on both sides should be looking at parts of what the Government is doing and thinking "that ain't right!" 

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

Thanks, guys.

 

Is that a permanent state of affairs?

Nope, can be lifted at anytime.

 

I think SNP had 3 out of 56 suspended last year at one point for all different sorts of (alleged) financial fraud.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

For me, this is not the point... people on both sides should be looking at parts of what the Government is doing and thinking "that ain't right!" 

As far as brexit is concerned I agree with what they are doing, I don't think we should be giving any concessions to get a deal. The red lines are why people went for leave and if it's to the detriment of the economy then, I still don't give a shit.

[Buce]

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40556872

 

Businesswoman Gina Miller has said she felt "violated" after an aristocrat wrote a Facebook post offering a bounty for her to be run over.

Rhodri Colwyn Philipps, 50, the 4th Viscount St Davids, wrote the message four days after Ms Miller won a Brexit legal challenge against the government in November of last year.

Lord St Davids denies three charges of making malicious communications.

He told Westminster Magistrates' Court the posts were not "menacing".

Lord St Davids, of Knightsbridge, London, wrote on the social media site on 7 November 2016: "£5,000 for the first person to 'accidentally' run over this bloody troublesome first generation immigrant."

He described her as a "boat jumper" and added: "If this is what we should expect from immigrants, send them back to their stinking jungles."

'Monkeys'

Ms Miller, 52, said she felt "violated" by his "shocking" comments about her.

Asked by the prosecution why he had used the term "immigrant", Lord St Davids told the court: "She's not part of the furniture" adding, "She's been here less than a generation."

The viscount also posted two messages referring to immigrants as "monkeys".

In one post, not directed at Ms Miller, he said: "Please will someone smoke this ghastly insult to this country, why should I pay tax to feed these monkeys?"

Image copyright PA

Image caption Gina Miller attended Westminster Magistrates' Court in London

Ms Miller led the successful legal challenge which, on 3 November, ruled the government had to consult Parliament before formally beginning the Brexit process.

Ms Miller - who was born in Guyana - told the court she had been the subject of death threats since her role in the Article 50 case.

In a statement read to the court, she said she was "very scared for the safety of herself and her family".

"In addition to finding it offensive, racist and hateful, she was extremely concerned that someone would threaten to have her run over for a bounty," prosecutor Philip Stott said.

"She took the threat seriously, and it contributed to her employing professional security for her protection."

'Muslim friends'

Lord St Davids, who was defending himself, accepted writing the posts but told the court they were not publicly visible or menacing.

"If you're in the public eye, people are going to say nasty things about you. It's the rough and tumble of public life," he said.

He insisted he is not racist and told the court: "I know a number of Muslims who are dear friends.

"My own mother is an immigrant from the very same continent (as Ms Miller)."

The case was adjourned until Tuesday afternoon when a verdict is expected.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Quite an interesting chap you've found their @Buce

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodri_Philipps,_4th_Viscount_St_Davids. Been declared bankrupt 3 times according to this, so would have been unlikely he would have paid up anyway.

 

I looked the guy up, partly because the Beeb article didn't point out what type of trial it was - it's criminal proceedings.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40556872

 

Businesswoman Gina Miller has said she felt "violated" after an aristocrat wrote a Facebook post offering a bounty for her to be run over.

Rhodri Colwyn Philipps, 50, the 4th Viscount St Davids, wrote the message four days after Ms Miller won a Brexit legal challenge against the government in November of last year.

Lord St Davids denies three charges of making malicious communications.

He told Westminster Magistrates' Court the posts were not "menacing".

Lord St Davids, of Knightsbridge, London, wrote on the social media site on 7 November 2016: "£5,000 for the first person to 'accidentally' run over this bloody troublesome first generation immigrant."

He described her as a "boat jumper" and added: "If this is what we should expect from immigrants, send them back to their stinking jungles."

'Monkeys'

Ms Miller, 52, said she felt "violated" by his "shocking" comments about her.

Asked by the prosecution why he had used the term "immigrant", Lord St Davids told the court: "She's not part of the furniture" adding, "She's been here less than a generation."

The viscount also posted two messages referring to immigrants as "monkeys".

In one post, not directed at Ms Miller, he said: "Please will someone smoke this ghastly insult to this country, why should I pay tax to feed these monkeys?"

Image copyright PA

Image caption Gina Miller attended Westminster Magistrates' Court in London

Ms Miller led the successful legal challenge which, on 3 November, ruled the government had to consult Parliament before formally beginning the Brexit process.

Ms Miller - who was born in Guyana - told the court she had been the subject of death threats since her role in the Article 50 case.

In a statement read to the court, she said she was "very scared for the safety of herself and her family".

"In addition to finding it offensive, racist and hateful, she was extremely concerned that someone would threaten to have her run over for a bounty," prosecutor Philip Stott said.

"She took the threat seriously, and it contributed to her employing professional security for her protection."

'Muslim friends'

Lord St Davids, who was defending himself, accepted writing the posts but told the court they were not publicly visible or menacing.

"If you're in the public eye, people are going to say nasty things about you. It's the rough and tumble of public life," he said.

He insisted he is not racist and told the court: "I know a number of Muslims who are dear friends.

"My own mother is an immigrant from the very same continent (as Ms Miller)."

The case was adjourned until Tuesday afternoon when a verdict is expected.

What the F***ity F***?

Right wingers really letting the facade drop recently aren't they?

 

[Guest MattP]

Soon as you are whipping out the "my friends are..." you are in trouble.

 

In hindsight we should all be thankful to Gina Miller, not abuse her. I'm sure it wasn't her intention but her court case ensured that parliament has voted and enshrined into law that Britain leaves the European Union.

 

I dread to think what would be happening now if that hasn't been the case and May has used the royal perogative after that election result.