Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Nick]

25 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

JEREMY Corbyn has responded to Theresa May’s appeal for his help by reminding her that he is the leader of the Labour Party.

As the prime minister called on Corbyn and his MPs to help deliver her policies, Corbyn said: “Come again?”

He added: “Of course, Theresa, whatever you need. I got into politics to help implement the ideas of ruthless, right wing, authoritarian capitalists like yourself.

“Meanwhile, my lifelong support for policies that you find utterly repugnant was actually just performance art.

“In reality I’m a major shareholder in a South African diamond mine and a company that makes bullets.

“Also, I hate homos because Jesus told me to. You utter ****ing cretin.”

The prime minister said: “Fair enough. I am just so shit at this. For the love of god, someone stop me.”

 

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/you-do-know-that-im-the-leader-of-the-labour-party-corbyn-asks-may-20170710131463

 

~Ha!

 

If only...

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

A new analysis published by the Institute for Fiscal Studies last week found graduates in England left university with the highest student debts in the developed world, thanks to a combination of high fees, increased interest rates while studying and maintenance grants being replaced by loans. It calculated the average student would leave university with a debt of more than £50,000 – rising to an average of £57,000 for the poorest, who borrow more for their living costs. By contrast in the US, famed for its high fees, the average debt on graduation is $36,000 (£28,000).

 

At the same time, we have a situation where the young cannot get on the housing ladder.

 

 

 

Utterly appalling figures but there's no surprise there at all, anybody paying attention at all to the housing market this past decade should already know about how the young get funnelled into a vicious cycle of rent and low savings.  But of course as long as enough of the population as a whole aren't affected by it nobody cares.  I'm alright Jack, after all.

 

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

**** me I'm gonna be in the top 20%!

 

Mom! Get the camera! 

See? 

 

30 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

JEREMY Corbyn has responded to Theresa May’s appeal for his help by reminding her that he is the leader of the Labour Party.

As the prime minister called on Corbyn and his MPs to help deliver her policies, Corbyn said: “Come again?”

He added: “Of course, Theresa, whatever you need. I got into politics to help implement the ideas of ruthless, right wing, authoritarian capitalists like yourself.

“Meanwhile, my lifelong support for policies that you find utterly repugnant was actually just performance art.

“In reality I’m a major shareholder in a South African diamond mine and a company that makes bullets.

“Also, I hate homos because Jesus told me to. You utter ****ing cretin.”

The prime minister said: “Fair enough. I am just so shit at this. For the love of god, someone stop me.”

 

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/you-do-know-that-im-the-leader-of-the-labour-party-corbyn-asks-may-20170710131463

I genuinely IoId at that last line  

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

A new analysis published by the Institute for Fiscal Studies last week found graduates in England left university with the highest student debts in the developed world, thanks to a combination of high fees, increased interest rates while studying and maintenance grants being replaced by loans. It calculated the average student would leave university with a debt of more than £50,000 – rising to an average of £57,000 for the poorest, who borrow more for their living costs. By contrast in the US, famed for its high fees, the average debt on graduation is $36,000 (£28,000).

 

At the same time, we have a situation where the young cannot get on the housing ladder.

 

 

 

 

Looking at that graph and considering the student debt situation, you could argue that it's pointing towards an underlying crisis for the UK economy. 

 

It seems all too apparent that those rising up inside the middle earnings bracket at this point will have so much of their disposal income going on repayments / rent, it will be impossible for them to build up any meaningful equity that would provide that greater level disposal income in later life, from which our encomny has become so dependent on. 

 

To me, it looks like the past 15 years worth of governments have been slowly storing up a crisis that could be huge. 

[Webbo]

Student loans mythbuster

[Innovindil]

25 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Utterly appalling figures but there's no surprise there at all, anybody paying attention at all to the housing market this past decade should already know about how the young get funnelled into a vicious cycle of rent and low savings.  But of course as long as enough of the population as a whole aren't affected by it nobody cares.  I'm alright Jack, after all.

 

See? 

 

I genuinely IoId at that last line  

Hard to feel sorry for other people my age tbf. You make your own choices, I chose to get into a career I know would support me. My mate decided ****ing about for 4 years studying media at uni was a better idea. He now works 16 hours a week at sainsbury and whatever he can get at the local corner shop. 

 

No surprise who's doing better. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Looking at that graph and considering the student debt situation, you could argue that it's pointing towards an underlying crisis for the UK economy. 

 

It seems all too apparent that those rising up inside the middle earnings bracket at this point will have so much of their disposal income going on repayments / rent, it will be impossible for them to build up any meaningful equity that would provide that greater level disposal income in later life, from which our encomny has become so dependent on. 

 

To me, it looks like the past 15 years worth of governments have been slowly storing up a crisis that could be huge. 

I think the crisis is more what happens when the housing market collapses. The economic indicators in this country - virtually all of them - are dreadful. I realise Tories will point to what on the face of it is a good employment % but even they must know deep down that we have some real problems. These don't relate to the deficit, they relate to wages, prices and PERSONAL debt. With the current cost of living crisis we are rapidly approaching the point where further inflation will be unsustainable as people won't be able to pay for goods and personal debt can't continue to rise forever. Ultimately, squeezing household incomes can only lead to a housing market crash. This one will make 2008 look like a walk in the park, I fear. I worry that neither party will be able to stop this now. The Tories are too wedded to austerity to loosen the purse strings and give people some relief and, although Labour would put money into the economy potentially staving off the coming recession, house prices still look pretty unsustainable at their current levels and the problem of personal debt might not be easy to fix. The BOE are caught between a rock and a hard place as they should be raising interest rates with inflation at almost 3% but are unable to do that by much due to the personal debt mountain.

 

I'm going to say it, though if you're a Tory responder perhaps you could focus on the above bit first to avoid circular arguments: this is what happens when you transfer pubic debt into private debt through cuts in public spending.  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Student loans mythbuster

Considering the Tories claim to be the party to support the 'strivers' they seem to be doing everything they can to target the children or the poor striving for better.

Students from the poorest backgrounds end up with substantially larger loans that those from wealthier families. If they do well, then they pay a 9% tax throughout their working life, with interest of over 6% soon to be applied on their £57k loans. How you think this is rewarding strivers I have no idea. Why is it okay to work hard at work and be rewarded but not to work hard at uni to get the education employers want? 

 

7 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Hard to feel sorry for other people my age tbf. You make your own choices, I chose to get into a career I know would support me. My mate decided ****ing about for 4 years studying media at uni was a better idea. He now works 16 hours a week at sainsbury and whatever he can get at the local corner shop. 

 

No surprise who's doing better. 

Wow. Just wow. I honestly can't tell you how badly that comes across. At least you're alright, Jack. 

 

You only have to look at the figures to see that there are serious issues for today's young - I say that as somebody that doesn't belong to their generation. That you have done well is good news but this cannot be applied to show that everybody less fortunate has not made the right decisions. Sorry to burst that bubble but there are only so many 'good' jobs in the economy. Not everybody deserving of one can get one and what we have left in the current sorry excuse for a modern economy is poorly paid and insecure work. 

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Considering the Tories claim to be the party to support the 'strivers' they seem to be doing everything they can to target the children or the poor striving for better.

Students from the poorest backgrounds end up with substantially larger loans that those from wealthier families. If they do well, then they pay a 9% tax throughout their working life, with interest of over 6% soon to be applied on their £57k loans. How you think this is rewarding strivers I have no idea. Why is it okay to work hard at work and be rewarded but not to work hard at uni to get the education employers want? 

 

Wow. Just wow. I honestly can't tell you how badly that comes across. At least you're alright, Jack. 

 

You only have to look at the figures to see that there are serious issues for today's young - I say that as somebody that doesn't belong to their generation. That you have done well is good news but this cannot be applied to show that everybody less fortunate has not made the right decisions. Sorry to burst that bubble but there are only so many 'good' jobs in the economy. Not everybody deserving of one can get one and what we have left in the current sorry excuse for a modern economy is poorly paid and insecure work. 

If you read the link the amount of debt is irrelevant, it's the amount you repay that counts, a lot of people won't pay anything.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If you read the link the amount of debt is irrelevant, it's the amount you repay that counts, a lot of people won't pay anything.

I'm not convinced that huge percentages of graduates won't earn £21k at some point in their working lives. 

And if you do well - as the government would want and you are told to do - you pay 9% with a 6% interest rate.

Even if you stick to £57k loans being fine you surely cannot come up with any argument to support a 6% interest rate?

Kids now have 9% graduate taxes, pension payments are rising (certainly they have in the public sector) and they need to save huge amounts to purchase homes, at a time when wages are falling and rents are rising. 

Exactly how do you expect the young to overcome these hurdles?

This country is going to the dogs and people like you are cheerleading its demise. 

Edited 11 July 2017 by Guest

[Webbo]

Just now, toddybad said:

 

This country is going to the dogs and people like you are cheerleading its demise. 

 Okay mate, I won't waste your time any further.

[Strokes]

I think the problems here lie much deeper than just tuition fees. We have Sky high house prices, banks that don't lend money to first time buyers, people struggling to raise deposits because money no longer filters down and parents that cannot save anymore, people prioritising luxuries over asset building and last but probably not least people who buy to let inflating the market. 

Its the wonderful world of a global capitalist market, making people into numbers. 

[Innovindil]

11 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Considering the Tories claim to be the party to support the 'strivers' they seem to be doing everything they can to target the children or the poor striving for better.

Students from the poorest backgrounds end up with substantially larger loans that those from wealthier families. If they do well, then they pay a 9% tax throughout their working life, with interest of over 6% soon to be applied on their £57k loans. How you think this is rewarding strivers I have no idea. Why is it okay to work hard at work and be rewarded but not to work hard at uni to get the education employers want? 

 

Wow. Just wow. I honestly can't tell you how badly that comes across. At least you're alright, Jack. 

 

You only have to look at the figures to see that there are serious issues for today's young - I say that as somebody that doesn't belong to their generation. That you have done well is good news but this cannot be applied to show that everybody less fortunate has not made the right decisions. Sorry to burst that bubble but there are only so many 'good' jobs in the economy. Not everybody deserving of one can get one and what we have left in the current sorry excuse for a modern economy is poorly paid and insecure work. 

Couldn't particularly give a shite how it comes across in all honesty. He spent 4 years partying and shagging birds and failed his course. I spent 4 years studying (and working to pay for it!) and landed an acceptable job. And he's not even an uncommon exception. 

 

Now he (and his ilk) goes down as a "less fortunate" and I go down as "lucky". When in reality I've been anything but lucky in anything I've done in life. 

 

Sorry and all. You can't burst that bubble. 

 

 

[Webbo]

We really need to build loads more houses, problem is nobody wants a housing estate in their backyard, understandably so. There aren't any easy answers.

[Captain...]

14 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If you read the link the amount of debt is irrelevant, it's the amount you repay that counts, a lot of people won't pay anything.

Which makes the whole student loan situation even more ridiculous, lumber people with a huge debt that they aren't even expected to pay off, and all for what purpose?

 

If I was in charge I would have a tuition tax (1% of your income for every year started at university for the rest of your working life starting at the lower income tax threshold). University is a great opportunity and on average university graduates make around 10% more than non graduates. Having that opportunity shouldn't be free, but it also shouldn't be funded by an astronomical loan that is virtually impossible to pay back and creates a massive problem for the Government in finding that money to loan in the first place.

[Webbo]

Just now, Captain... said:

Which makes the whole student loan situation even more ridiculous, lumber people with a huge debt that they aren't even expected to pay off, and all for what purpose?

 

If I was in charge I would have a tuition tax (1% of your income for every year started at university for the rest of your working life starting at the lower income tax threshold). University is a great opportunity and on average university graduates make around 10% more than non graduates. Having that opportunity shouldn't be free, but it also shouldn't be funded by an astronomical loan that is virtually impossible to pay back and creates a massive problem for the Government in finding that money to loan in the first place.

It virtually is a graduate tax. 9% of what you earn after £21k. The only difference is it stops when you've paid it off or after 30 years.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Captain... said:

Which makes the whole student loan situation even more ridiculous, lumber people with a huge debt that they aren't even expected to pay off, and all for what purpose?

 

If I was in charge I would have a tuition tax (1% of your income for every year started at university for the rest of your working life starting at the lower income tax threshold). University is a great opportunity and on average university graduates make around 10% more than non graduates. Having that opportunity shouldn't be free, but it also shouldn't be funded by an astronomical loan that is virtually impossible to pay back and creates a massive problem for the Government in finding that money to loan in the first place.

I have seen it proposed by academics that a 2.5% graduate tax - on all graduates regardless of wage could fill a chunk of the hole left behind by getting rid of loans. I could live with that. 

It's remarkable Tories arguing that national debt is terrible but student debt is wonderful. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

It virtually is a graduate tax. 9% of what you earn after £21k. The only difference is it stops when you've paid it off or after 30 years.

A 9% tax on top of other taxes is ridiculous and unsustainable. 

You baulked at the top earners paying an extra 5% but want people lower down the scale to pay 9%!!!

Edited 11 July 2017 by Guest

[katieakita]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/626772/good-work-taylor-review-modern-working-practices.pdf

 

 

Lets hope HMG start with their own dodgy shower of #### at the Post Office. Webbo you may not to start this as a fresh topic as will impact on many

[Webbo]

Just now, toddybad said:

A 9% tax on top of other taxes is ridiculous and unsustainable. 

Would an extra 5% on income tax be unsustainable?

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, katieakita said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/626772/good-work-taylor-review-modern-working-practices.pdf

 

 

Lets hope HMG start with their own dodgy shower of #### at the Post Office. Webbo you may not to start this as a fresh topic as will impact on many

Yes sir.

[Guest]

Just now, Webbo said:

Would an extra 5% on income tax be unsustainable?

A 9% tax on earnings over £21k (in addition to the other taxes paid) is very, very different to a 5% tax on earnings over £80k.

 

[Webbo]

Just now, toddybad said:

A 9% tax on earnings over £21k (in addition to the other taxes paid) is very, very different to a 5% tax on earnings over £80k.

 

But some of those graduates could easily be earning over £80 k.

[Guest]

Just now, Webbo said:

But some of those graduates could easily be earning over £80 k.

Yes, and they can pay the extra 5% once Labour get into power. They don't need to be paying a 9% tax when they're not earning anything like that amount. 

As I noted above, I'd be happy for a standard 2.5% tax on all graduates. 9% is ridiculous. That's taking the tax burden to well into the 40+% (inc. NI contributions). You spend your life arguing for lower taxation but somehow when it comes to recent graduates you've developed something of a blind spot. 

 

[katieakita]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Yes sir.

Did not mean to sound abrupt so apologies but this can have a major impact on anyone affected by their worker status.

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

It's remarkable Tories arguing that national debt is terrible but student debt is wonderful. 

Nobody is making that argument