Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Izzy]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It is a good thing. But all the other indicators around wages, cost of living and personal debt aren't good. It isn't hard to see that both can be true. Whilst it's good employment is high, it's very bad that employment is not having the effect on people's lives that it should.

Despite the other indicators, I guess it's still better that people are in employment rather than claiming benefits though yeah? 

 

I'm sure there is some personal debt born out of the necessity to borrow, but I haven't got much sympathy for those who live beyond their means and are in debt because they just want the next shiny new thing.

 

Its not the Tories fault some people are greedy and think they need to keep up with the Jones' rather than manage their personal finances properly...

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Despite the other indicators, I guess it's still better that people are in employment rather than claiming benefits though yeah? 

 

I'm sure there is some personal debt born out of the necessity to borrow, but I haven't got much sympathy for those who live beyond their means and are in debt because they just want the next shiny new thing.

 

Its not the Tories fault some people are greedy and think they need to keep up with the Jones' rather than manage their personal finances properly...

Whilst I agree with that wholly, I do think it misses out the people who get into spirals of debt just to put food on the table. More needs to be done to tackle payday lenders and door step lenders. I know of people who have actually ended up paying over 10x the original amount and still ended up defaulting in the end. These are worse than loan sharks.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Despite the other indicators, I guess it's still better that people are in employment rather than claiming benefits though yeah? 

 

I'm sure there is some personal debt born out of the necessity to borrow, but I haven't got much sympathy for those who live beyond their means and are in debt because they just want the next shiny new thing.

 

Its not the Tories fault some people are greedy and think they need to keep up with the Jones' rather than manage their personal finances properly...

Yes it is better to be in employment. But this doesn't necessarily stop people getting in debt. 

 

I'll let you into a little secret Izzy - not everybody gets into debt because they want to or because they buy shiny things. I can absolutely guarantee this is the case. I got into significant debt after splitting with my ex partner as my outgoings became more than my incomings. This wasn't anything to do with Sky TV or shiny things - this was taking on debt to pay the council tax and car insurance (needed for my job). There are many situations that people can find themselves in which can lead to horrific levels of debt being taken on. 

 

I'm not trying to make this point party politically but one of the consequences of reducing public sector debt is that personal debt (or business debt) has to increase to fill the void. This is absolutely technically true. By cutting public expenditure, private spending must increase. Either that or we enter recession. For example, a public sector pay freeze means that people have less to spend in real terms and have to resort to credit cards and overdrafts to make ends meet. You can, of course, say "well reduce your expenditure" but there is a limit to what you can reduce over sustained periods and that is precisely why private debt has increased to near record levels. It isn't people wanting shiny things - well I'm sure SOME of it is but it doesn't necessarily mean the majority is - it is people making ends meet. 

 

Edited 12 July 2017 by Guest

[Izzy]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Whilst I agree with that wholly, I do think it misses out the people who get into spirals of debt just to put food on the table. More needs to be done to tackle payday lenders and door step lenders. I know of people who have actually ended up paying over 10x the original amount and still ended up defaulting in the end. These are worse than loan sharks.

I do wonder how people ever managed before the invention of payday lenders. Still seems a relatively new phenomenon to me.

At the times in my life when I've struggled to put food on the table, I just stopped spending on things I didn't need and we went without. And I also worked more hours and did other jobs to supplement my income.

I realise I sound unsympathetic but I've always had a problem with people who don't take personal responsibility and end up blaming everyone else except themselves.

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I do wonder how people ever managed before the invention of payday lenders. Still seems a relatively new phenomenon to me.

At the times in my life when I've struggled to put food on the table, I just stopped spending on things I didn't need and we went without. And I also worked more hours and did other jobs to supplement my income.

I realise I sound unsympathetic but I've always had a problem with people who don't take personal responsibility and end up blaming everyone else except themselves.

It's hard when you are desperate, you don't always make the best choices I guess. I'm just trying to say pigeon holing everyone in unaffordable debt as greedy might not be entirely accurate.

[Izzy]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Yes it is better to be in employment. But this doesn't necessarily stop people getting in debt. 

 

I'll let you into a little secret Izzy - not everybody gets into debt because they want to or because they buy shiny things. I can absolutely guarantee this is the case. I got into significant debt after splitting with my ex partner as my outgoings became more than my incomings. This wasn't anything to do with Sky TV or shiny things - this was taking on debt to pay the council tax and car insurance (needed for my job). There are many situations that people can find themselves in which can lead to horrific levels of debt being taken on. 

 

I'm not trying to make this point party politically but one of the consequences of reducing public sector debt is that personal debt (or business debt) has to increase to fill the void. This is absolutely technically true. By cutting public expenditure, private spending must increase. Either that or we enter recession. For example, a public sector pay freeze means that people have less to spend in real terms and have to resort to credit cards and overdrafts to make ends meet. You can, of course, say "well reduce your expenditure" but there is a limit to what you can reduce over sustained periods and that is precisely why private debt has increased to near record levels. It isn't people wanting shiny things - well I'm sure SOME of it is but it doesn't necessarily mean the majority is - it is people making ends meet. 

 

Thanks for letting me in on the little secret mate 

Now I'm going to sound REALLY insensitive...

 

I'm sorry that your debt was brought on through splitting with your partner. But that's not the fault of the Tories or the economy, that's because you couldn't make your relationship work.

 

I know there's lots of reasons why people get into debt - shit happens and that's life.

 

If peoples outgoings exceed their income then maybe they need to focus on increasing their income. Educate yourself, better yourself, train, read, graft, research, apply for better paying jobs, take a risk, set up your own business, reach your potential in life. 

 

"If it's to be, it's up to me" as some wise man once said...

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Thanks for letting me in on the little secret mate 

Now I'm going to sound REALLY insensitive...

 

I'm sorry that your debt was brought on through splitting with your partner. But that's not the fault of the Tories or the economy, that's because you couldn't make your relationship work.

 

I know there's lots of reasons why people get into debt - shit happens and that's life.

 

If peoples outgoings exceed their income then maybe they need to focus on increasing their income. Educate yourself, better yourself, train, read, graft, research, apply for better paying jobs, take a risk, set up your own business, reach your potential in life. 

 

"If it's to be, it's up to me" as some wise man once said...

4

 

You're assuming that a.) bad luck and b.) other peoples decisions have no bearing on the life and economic status of an individual here, I think.

 

That's a rather dangerous assumption and more dangerous still to assume that the person involved should carry the can for it 100%.

Edited 12 July 2017 by leicsmac

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

It's hard when you are desperate, you don't always make the best choices I guess. I'm just trying to say pigeon holing everyone in unaffordable debt as greedy might not be entirely accurate.

I did say previously that I'm sure some personal debt is born out of the necessity to borrow so I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush. But I still stand by my other views 

[Izzy]

Just now, leicsmac said:

 

You're assuming that a.) bad luck and b.) other peoples decisions have no bearing on the life and economic status of an individual here, I think.

 

That's a rather dangerous assumption.

Having a) had the bad luck of a major illness myself that resulted in two years in hospital not earning and b) made redundant from well paid jobs twice, I know they have a bearing on the life and economic status of an individual.

 

I also know that people have the capability to make their own luck in life and bounce back out of sheer grit, determination and resilience.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Thanks for letting me in on the little secret mate 

Now I'm going to sound REALLY insensitive...

 

I'm sorry that your debt was brought on through splitting with your partner. But that's not the fault of the Tories or the economy, that's because you couldn't make your relationship work.

 

I know there's lots of reasons why people get into debt - shit happens and that's life.

 

If peoples outgoings exceed their income then maybe they need to focus on increasing their income. Educate yourself, better yourself, train, read, graft, research, apply for better paying jobs, take a risk, set up your own business, reach your potential in life. 

 

"If it's to be, it's up to me" as some wise man once said...

I'm not saying it's anybody else's fault. I'm just clearing up that you can't accuse everybody that has debt (and the average debt is now almost £10000) of being wasteful.

Besides, I rent. If I owned a house I'd be paying more than twice the value of my house via a mortgage. Why is that less wasteful? I guarantee that (if it wasn't for excessive house price rises) you lose far more on a house purchase than via any other normal debt. 

Edited 12 July 2017 by Guest

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I'm not saying it's anybody else's fault. I'm just clearing up that you can't accuse everybody that has debt (and the average debt is now almost £10000 of being wasteful.

Besides, I rent. If I owned a house I'd be paying more than twice the value of my house via a mortgage. Why is that less wasteful? I guarantee that (if it wasn't for excessive house price rises) you lose far more on a house purchase than via any other normal (i.e. not payday) debt. 

I didn't accuse everybody that has debt of being wasteful - please read my original post where I admit that some debt is born out of necessity, I get that.

Im not sure I understand your rent/mortgage point though. Are you saying it's bad to own your own home and pay a mortgage? 

[Innovindil]

18 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Thanks for letting me in on the little secret mate 

Now I'm going to sound REALLY insensitive...

 

I'm sorry that your debt was brought on through splitting with your partner. But that's not the fault of the Tories or the economy, that's because you couldn't make your relationship work.

 

I know there's lots of reasons why people get into debt - shit happens and that's life.

 

If peoples outgoings exceed their income then maybe they need to focus on increasing their income. Educate yourself, better yourself, train, read, graft, research, apply for better paying jobs, take a risk, set up your own business, reach your potential in life. 

 

"If it's to be, it's up to me" as some wise man once said...

Have my babies.

 

Dead serious, think I've met my soulmate. 

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Having a) had the bad luck of a major illness myself that resulted in two years in hospital not earning and b) made redundant from well paid jobs twice, I know they have a bearing on the life and economic status of an individual.

 

I also know that people have the capability to make their own luck in life and bounce back out of sheer grit, determination and resilience.

2

Oh, no doubt, but not always - either due to the sheer magnitude of the bad luck or machinations of others, or due to their own lack of strength, as not everyone possesses the determination and resilience of others. Should they be penalised for either of those things - let natural selection sort out its own, as it were?

 

It's a bracing concept, to think that you have total control over where your own life goes, that you can direct it even in the face of anything the universe or other people throw at you...except it simply isn't true.

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Oh, no doubt, but not always - either due to the sheer magnitude of the bad luck or machinations of others, or due to their own lack of strength, as not everyone possesses the determination and resilience of others. Should they be penalised for either of those things - let natural selection sort out its own, as it were?

 

It's a bracing concept, to think that you have total control over where your own life goes, that you can direct it even in the face of anything the universe or other people throw at you...except it simply isn't true.

Yes, mistakes or bad luck come with consequences, we cannot stop that but there are some nasty traps out there that can and should be cleaned up.

[fuchsntf]

53 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I do wonder how people ever managed before the invention of payday lenders. Still seems a relatively new phenomenon to me.

At the times in my life when I've struggled to put food on the table, I just stopped spending on things I didn't need and we went without. And I also worked more hours and did other jobs to supplement my income.

I realise I sound unsympathetic but I've always had a problem with people who don't take personal responsibility and end up blaming everyone else except themselves.

I agree with your point you have tried to make...but money lenders/payday lenders, though an unfortunate uncontrolled business,

has been a scourge for 1000s Of years. They have hit all levels of society, but like a 1000 years c ago, so long as people do live

Over their means, and their wants are immediate, then overground underground, from banks to loan sharks, those lenders will

Carry on strutting their stuff....

2 simple examples...The best TVs, seem to be a must, plus the idea(Not fact)   that every houshold has a PC, or "mobilephones"

are easy assets to acquire but not to pay for..!!!  

Not forgetting some parents, dont know how to say NO, to their little angels, and to themselves.

All these reasons to get on social media and have the best 'mode' clothes, because of peer pressure, is what put many people

i n debt. 

 

Todays must haves, are really not affordable, we just pretend they are...then struggle at months and years end.

Plus the drive to have the best, pretending its not really too expensive.

Plus anything from 30-70 quid a month out of the wages ,maintaining to keep in touch, or on social media, not daring

to say ..we cant really afford that..!!!..

I was considered while working, an IT specialist...BUT My kids still had to buy and Maintain their own  PCs or phones..and the

new digi cameras...Donations at xmas and Birthdays.lost techi equipment, they started all over again...

No loans, no Supported bank credit for their Teki pasttimes.Only Educational , tips and suggestions...

Austerity, but we still go out and demand the rights to lend money for the unnecessary items in life..

 

Edited 12 July 2017 by fuchsntf

[Izzy]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Oh, no doubt, but not always - either due to the sheer magnitude of the bad luck or machinations of others, or due to their own lack of strength, as not everyone possesses the determination and resilience of others. Should they be penalised for either of those things - let natural selection sort out its own, as it were?

 

It's a bracing concept, to think that you have total control over where your own life goes, that you can direct it even in the face of anything the universe or other people throw at you...except it simply isn't true.

I never said people have total control - far from it. In fact on the depression thread I frequently say that I believe our lives are pre-determined and already mapped out for us. I'm also a fatalist and believe in destiny. Leicester were just destined to win the PL for example.

 

But what I do think is that people have choice around how to respond to what life throws at them. I could have chosen to be angry, resentful and unlucky when I was taken ill, lost my job twice and nearly went bankrupt - but I didn't. I asked myself "What can I learn from this?" instead. 

 

I believe all those events have made me a better person and a stronger individual. I believe they all happened for a reason and it's all part of my story. My challenge was how to bounce back - and I'm proud of how I've bounced back. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and all that...

 

It's nothing to do with natural selection but I do agree that some people are more determined and resilient than others. And that both these traits can be learnt...

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yes, mistakes or bad luck come with consequences, we cannot stop that but there are some nasty traps out there that can and should be cleaned up.

Yes. And I wholeheartedly believe that humanity should do it's utmost to shield people from the consequences of decisions that were not their own and also help those who might need help to keep going.

 

Just now, Izzy Muzzett said:

I never said people have total control - far from it. In fact on the depression thread I frequently say that I believe our lives are pre-determined and already mapped out for us. I'm also a fatalist and believe in destiny. Leicester were just destined to win the PL for example.

 

But what I do think is that people have choice around how to respond to what life throws at them. I could have chosen to be angry, resentful and unlucky when I was taken ill, lost my job twice and nearly went bankrupt - but I didn't. I asked myself "What can I learn from this?" instead. 

 

I believe all those events have made me a better person and a stronger individual. I believe they all happened for a reason and it's all part of my story. My challenge was how to bounce back - and I'm proud of how I've bounced back. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and all that...

 

It's nothing to do with natural selection but I do agree that some people are more determined and resilient than others. And that both these traits can be learnt...

Hmmmm...that's interesting, then. Apologies if I took what you said as a generalisation.

 

I would certainly agree that the choice about how to respond to bad luck or someone imposing their will on you is yours alone, and that does have a bearing on how you go about your life thereafter and it does often make a difference in the way things turn out - sometimes. I also don't believe in destiny as you do - if there's some higher power controlling how things turn out then quite frankly that higher power is a cvnt and not interested in human life, and so why would it matter anyway?

 

I just took issue with the idea that people can dig their way out of holes that aren't their own making every time, or indeed that they should be obliged to when they've done nothing to justify putting them there in the first place. But then life has hardly even been fair, has it?

[Guest]

I think we're missing the point on debt. It isn't about individual decisions, debts, problems or inadequacies. 

The issue is a system that has been set up to cause increased personal debt. 

 

The only other point I'd make is a response to the point Izzy made about people seeking to increase their income and reach their potential. Firstly, I could take many jobs that would pay me more but which would be doing exactly the opposite of letting me reach my potential. Secondly, if the entire public service did this you'd have problems. The public service has a far higher number of highly qualified staff tan the private sector and many, like me, could earn far more in the private sector. We stay because public sector work is about more than just the numbers in the pay packet. That doesn't, however, mean that we can't complain when we are treated unfairly over pay. This is the problem with the whole theory of markets and Tory thinking - society is worth more than just money. 

Edited 13 July 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

Anyway

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/12/labour-tories-great-repeal-bill-brexit-eu

[Kopfkino]

23 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I never said people have total control - far from it. In fact on the depression thread I frequently say that I believe our lives are pre-determined and already mapped out for us. I'm also a fatalist and believe in destiny. Leicester were just destined to win the PL for example.

 

 

Do you look when you cross the road, Izzy? How about holding the steering wheel? 

[Rincewind]

Not everybody has the ability to rise to the top. Many habe word and number blindness so would not make great accountants or mortgage brokers. Some people are stuck in low paid jobs. One reason among many why people get into debt is not mismanagement of finances but ill health. A bloke may be in a decent paid job who can afford holidays Sky TV etc then has to lose time off work because he or a family member becomes seriously ill. The family may have  all luxuries Sky TV but it may be on 2 or 3 year contracts. Even on a mid salary with both partners working they manage because they say bad luck happens to other people. If a person has savings it wont last long and it is difficult to suddenly have to live on a third of your usual incom no matter what it was before. I've gone from 250 to 70 and no doubt 1000 to 300PW is equally hard.

[Rincewind]

I know someone who is a great artist and illustrator, He suffers from neuro-diversity. He is intelligent and out going but he finds it hard to find an employer willing to take him on because of his mood swings. However he is not one that values possession as the most important thing.

[katieakita]

Interesting points of views and as it is a political thread many on here need to accept that some will never change their voting allegiances. My opinion not that it is worth more than anybody else's is it should not be a crime to be poor and it should not be a crime to try and work but one of the biggest complaints about the new and clearly failing Universal Credit is people who have been on income support have had to take on payday loans while the ever useless DWP sort out benefits. Payday loan companies can be pretty much wiped out if the government chooses to. A Post bank model suggested by the Labour party and endorsed by the likes of IDS could solve that. Lending to the financially excluded at a rate set my government with the profits going back to government not to glorified loan sharks all they do is help keep poor people poorer. Shamefully though the Tory party lacks the courage to sort this out and the corrupt organisation they control called the Post Office hence why I will not vote Tory.

 

There is the an element of society that see the welfare state and benefit system as a lifestyle choice and there are those who would rather play this system than work to support themselves something that no political party seems able to control and there is a difference between needing support and abusing support and in my line of work I see plenty of failings in under support and over support and often those setting the guidelines fail miserably in getting it right. Just my opinion mind but there are those to the right that need to accept there are those in need of support that deserve help and those to the left need to accept that there are those who abuse the system.

[Guest]

Oh dear. Maybot surely can't survive much longer with so many briefing against government strategy. 

 

Brexit plans could fall apart 'like a chocolate orange', says auditor general

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/13/brexit-plans-fall-apart-chocolate-orange-auditor-general

[Captain...]

9 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I do wonder how people ever managed before the invention of payday lenders. Still seems a relatively new phenomenon to me.

First of all people were generally paid a living wage, it is a relatively new phenomenon to pay people less than they need to live. When I grew up it was very common to have only one working parent. I felt in the minority with both my parents working full time.

 

Secondly there were options if unforeseen circumstances put you into debt, which would normally be a chat with your bank manager who would authorise a small manageable loan to see you through. Nowadays people can rack up credit card debt, shift the debt around, get another credit card, be permanently overdrawn, banks almost court people with debt by offering interest free balance transfers. This has become the norm for a lot of people and they are allowed to live in permanent debt so when unforeseen events occur they have to take more drastic measures such as pay day loans. It's the equivalent of going to a loan shark back in the day, the levels of interest are ridiculous and the business model involves getting customers into debt then selling the debt to someone else, the whole thing is unethical and should have been stamped out years ago.

 

The question of how people end up in that situation is also not as simple people should spend less. I can give you an example, friend works in retail, she was making ends meet working on the shop floor assistant manager, making enough money to be comfortable and can always do overtime for a bit of extra cash. She gets the opportunity to move to head office in London, a pay rise in terms of salary, but the cost of living, cost of commuting, cost of renting wiped out everything and she ended up in debt, permanently overdrawn, paying overdraft fees to really rub it in. Unable to get a credit card because she had never had one and had no credit history. Payday loans were the next option.

 

You can't say she shouldn't have taken the head office job, even knowing the salary was shit for London, because the opportunities to increase her experience and salary in the long run where much greater, but in getting in to that position she had to put herself into debt.

 

It is never as simple as the generalisations often made, some people are feckless idiots who run up a ton of debt and then declare themselves bankrupt, but the majority are working hard and end up stuck in a situation they can't control.