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Thracian

Overcrowding a death knell for wildlife

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https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/10/earths-sixth-mass-extinction-event-already-underway-scientists-warn

 

Times I've questioned the wisdom of recklessly overcrowding our land no matter what the excuses and while this alarming report points to the folly of overcrowding it only touches on the effect being had on Europe.

 

But look at the effect.

 

Younger people flippantly dismiss us old uns for saying how much safer and better life seemed even as recently as the 60s and 70s but one of the major changes is the lack of wildlife in our gardens - or even a lack of gardens themselves.

 

 Years ago there were so many birds and small creatures to found in those gardens. But even some bigger birds like thrushes have all but disappeared and the same can be said of many smaller birds like bullfinches, chaffinches, goldfinches, blue tits, long-tailed tits, wrens and more. 

 

There may be pockets to be found in certain places but generally they are not just scarce now,  but hardly seen at all.

 

Some may wonder if it matters but it matters enormously just as the nonsense of producing and dumping plastic in the sea - or anywhere else - is so damned destructive and irresponsible.

 

I've even heard of people putting nets across local rivers to catch fish or even butchering larger birds like swans in their quest for cheap food. But we can't go on like that. So many aspects of wildlife are interconnnected and serve their own particular purpose to maintain a balance. 

 

But people just go their own way and our leaders tolerate or even encourage the most stupid practices for short-term supposedly economical benefit and just ignore or overlook the consequences.

 

I sound like someone from Save the Earth but I'm not. I've seen some of the consequences with my own eyes and lamented them for years.

 

Overcrowding and bad industrial practice has to end and quickly. Not everyone has to live in England or in any other crowded place. There's room enough for everyone if we use space sensibly and there's thought and sound environmental management.

 

Life's not all about money. At least it shouldn't be.          

 

 

 

 

                      

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While this is a problem (and a big one, and both plastic and other forms of pollution are having a serious negative effect on animal life around the world), the solution (oddly enough) is not keeping one group of humans in one place and one in another, as that means the problem is merely moved to a different place rather than solved - and, as you say, it's all interconnected, so everywhere feels the effect in the end anyway.

 

The real problem is most people simply not caring about the long term effects of what they do.

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7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

While this is a problem (and a big one, and both plastic and other forms of pollution are having a serious negative effect on animal life around the world), the solution (oddly enough) is not keeping one group of humans in one place and one in another, as that means the problem is merely moved to a different place rather than solved - and, as you say, it's all interconnected, so everywhere feels the effect in the end anyway.

 

The real problem is most people simply not caring about the long term effects of what they do.

Completely agree. Also, and this point is often met with ridicule when you're a veggie/vegan, if more people were willing to cut down on the consumption of beef then the environment would benefit enormously, perhaps even more so than the reduction of vehicle usage.  

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8 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

 

Completely agree. Also, and this point is often met with ridicule when you're a veggie/vegan, if more people were willing to cut down on the consumption of beef then the environment would benefit enormously, perhaps even more so than the reduction of vehicle usage.  

I can't say that much about that lest I be a hypocrite, simply because I wouldn't give up meat unless a doctor sat me down and say if I didn't do it I would be dead within a year or two.

 

There seem to be good jumps in the field of "meat-making" (artificially grown) that might satisfy this need and also stop the need for wholesale cattle farming in the future, which could well help things.

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I lived in Cape Town last year - best city in the world by the way - I went to a Cheetah sanctuary. They've been saving cheetah (and other, smaller wildlife like Caracal) for years, rehabilitating them and educating people, including farmers who shoot them if they come onto their land. There I found out something that appalled me - in 1900, there were 100,000 cheetah. Now, 117 years later, there are estimated to be around 7,000. That's a 93% drop.

 

This cannot continue.

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53 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I can't say that much about that lest I be a hypocrite, simply because I wouldn't give up meat unless a doctor sat me down and say if I didn't do it I would be dead within a year or two.

 

There seem to be good jumps in the field of "meat-making" (artificially grown) that might satisfy this need and also stop the need for wholesale cattle farming in the future, which could well help things.

You wouldn't be a hypocrite, we all know the impact that cattle farming has, I have made a conscious effort to reduce my meat intake, little steps such as quorn mince instead of mince beef in a chili or bolognese, I think I actually prefer quorn, sweet potato curry/tagine is delicious and I don't miss the meat in those dishes, we've also been experimenting with milk alternatives, oat based "milk" is quite nice in tea and porridge, but milk free cheese is vile and I'm not going to force myself to eat it when I love cheese, and I do still have bacon sandwiches every weekend.

 

I  have reduced chicken and beef intake, but pig products are just too good. Incidentally, if a pig is fed properly, ie on scraps and what they forage they are the most efficient form of farmed meat, whereas if they are fed on pig feed that is really bad for the environment. Small steps, having a few meat free days a month and finding substitutes that you like can all add up.

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3 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I  have reduced chicken and beef intake, but pig products are just too good. Incidentally, if a pig is fed properly, ie on scraps and what they forage they are the most efficient form of farmed meat, whereas if they are fed on pig feed that is really bad for the environment. Small steps, having a few meat free days a month and finding substitutes that you like can all add up.

Me too, but also with pork. I find chicken pretty nasty tbh (ever since I saw a pic of a chick in a bun lol) and do not miss it that much, when I do eat it I try to buy it from local or organic places. I have tried all sorts of vegan/veggie food I used to turn my nose up at - some of it is a bit weird, but not too bad really. 

 

Just can't give up burgers, steak or bacon sandwiches. Pretty impossible. 

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4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

You wouldn't be a hypocrite, we all know the impact that cattle farming has, I have made a conscious effort to reduce my meat intake, little steps such as quorn mince instead of mince beef in a chili or bolognese, I think I actually prefer quorn, sweet potato curry/tagine is delicious and I don't miss the meat in those dishes, we've also been experimenting with milk alternatives, oat based "milk" is quite nice in tea and porridge, but milk free cheese is vile and I'm not going to force myself to eat it when I love cheese, and I do still have bacon sandwiches every weekend.

 

I  have reduced chicken and beef intake, but pig products are just too good. Incidentally, if a pig is fed properly, ie on scraps and what they forage they are the most efficient form of farmed meat, whereas if they are fed on pig feed that is really bad for the environment. Small steps, having a few meat free days a month and finding substitutes that you like can all add up.

I swear by quorn chicken pieces these days.  It's cheaper than meat, it tastes great, it's so easy to portion and you can stock the fridge knowing it won't be bad in a few days time.  What's not to like?  It's so good I'm quasi vegetarian now and I only really eat meat these days as a special treat (and I won't settle for less than free range so alas no bacon for me :() or when somebody else is cooking (in which case I won't be a free range Nazi so bacon for me :)).

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1 hour ago, Swan Lesta said:

Immigration and wildlife now....

 

lol

 

Brilliant.

 

I get the initial and incredibly simplified reaction, but if you don't think overpopulation and encroachment on to green spaces (here and worldwide) has a significant impact on to wildlife and habitat (which is essential to the well being of the country and planet), you're fully blinkered. 

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15 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

 

I get the initial and incredibly simplified reaction, but if you don't think overpopulation and encroachment on to green spaces (here and worldwide) has a significant impact on to wildlife and habitat (which is essential to the well being of the country and planet), you're fully blinkered. 

Absolutely. But as you said this is a worldwide problem and thus has zero to do with the movement of humans from one place to another. I do believe that was the point that was being made.

 

Also, I'll be honest, I find it difficult to listen to folks (not necessarily you or Thrac btw, I know how you veer on environmental issues) who proclaim to care about the Earth but then advocate economic and social policy practically guaranteed to damage it in the future.

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9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Absolutely. But as you said this is a worldwide problem and thus has zero to do with the movement of humans from one place to another. I do believe that was the point that was being made.

 

Also, I'll be honest, I find it difficult to listen to folks (not necessarily you or Thrac btw, I know how you veer on environmental issues) who proclaim to care about the Earth but then advocate economic and social policy practically guaranteed to damage it in the future.

Amen.

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40 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

 

I get the initial and incredibly simplified reaction, but if you don't think overpopulation and encroachment on to green spaces (here and worldwide) has a significant impact on to wildlife and habitat (which is essential to the well being of the country and planet), you're fully blinkered. 

You're talking to a guy who spent his teenage years living in woodland and chaining himself to stuff...

 

 

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1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Absolutely. But as you said this is a worldwide problem and thus has zero to do with the movement of humans from one place to another. I do believe that was the point that was being made.

 

Also, I'll be honest, I find it difficult to listen to folks (not necessarily you or Thrac btw, I know how you veer on environmental issues) who proclaim to care about the Earth but then advocate economic and social policy practically guaranteed to damage it in the future.

 

Yea touche, it certainly is a worldwide problem, but the movement of people will at some point have an affect. The constant erosion of our own landscape is something which concerns me a fair bit. I'm a huge wildlife and nature kinda guy and half the time I swear I'm born in the wrong time as I feel i need to be outdoors and involved in it rather than cooped in an office in this smoke and tarmac time.

If you take out the first sentence in Thracian's post, it's pretty much all correct. It is a worldwide problem, but on a micro scale (as Britain is on the global scale) the growing population, birth rate etc do need to be taken in to account. I won't go down the road that it's the only factor, it certainly isn't, but it should at least be part of the conversation and if it continues, we'll end up with nothing. To think that only a few thousand years ago, Britain was so green and wooded that a squirrel could go from John O Groats to lands End without touching the floor, to the sparse woodland areas now is depressing.

 

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1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said:

You're talking to a guy who spent his teenage years living in woodland and chaining himself to stuff...

 

 

 

Explains a lot lol Just messing mate. Fair play to you, but as mentioned in my reply above, to ignore the human movement on to the isle and the effects it will have long term is, in my view, blinkered. It's not the only problem and it's not even the biggest problem, but it is still something which should be discussed. That's all I'm saying, and you're initial reply seemed to laugh it off. Apologies if I read it wrong and you were just poking at Thracian, rather than laughing off the potential implications. :thumbup:

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Guest MattP
10 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Unregulated free market capitalism is the problem.

Because the Chinese population didn't explode while they avoided that.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, MattP said:

Because the Chinese population didn't explode while they avoided that.

 

 

I thought we were talking primarily about the UK. I thought much of China was sparsely populated and undeveloped although I admit I know relatively little about it. 

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5 hours ago, Thracian said:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/10/earths-sixth-mass-extinction-event-already-underway-scientists-warn

 

Times I've questioned the wisdom of recklessly overcrowding our land no matter what the excuses and while this alarming report points to the folly of overcrowding it only touches on the effect being had on Europe.

 

But look at the effect.

 

Younger people flippantly dismiss us old uns for saying how much safer and better life seemed even as recently as the 60s and 70s but one of the major changes is the lack of wildlife in our gardens - or even a lack of gardens themselves.

 

 Years ago there were so many birds and small creatures to found in those gardens. But even some bigger birds like thrushes have all but disappeared and the same can be said of many smaller birds like bullfinches, chaffinches, goldfinches, blue tits, long-tailed tits, wrens and more. 

 

There may be pockets to be found in certain places but generally they are not just scarce now,  but hardly seen at all.

 

Some may wonder if it matters but it matters enormously just as the nonsense of producing and dumping plastic in the sea - or anywhere else - is so damned destructive and irresponsible.

 

I've even heard of people putting nets across local rivers to catch fish or even butchering larger birds like swans in their quest for cheap food. But we can't go on like that. So many aspects of wildlife are interconnnected and serve their own particular purpose to maintain a balance. 

 

But people just go their own way and our leaders tolerate or even encourage the most stupid practices for short-term supposedly economical benefit and just ignore or overlook the consequences.

 

I sound like someone from Save the Earth but I'm not. I've seen some of the consequences with my own eyes and lamented them for years.

 

Overcrowding and bad industrial practice has to end and quickly. Not everyone has to live in England or in any other crowded place. There's room enough for everyone if we use space sensibly and there's thought and sound environmental management.

 

Life's not all about money. At least it shouldn't be.          

 

 

 

 

                      

It isn't about immigration. It's about there being too many humans on the planet period (sorry for the americanism).

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It's note a problem of two many humans, its a problem of too many ill informed individuals. Little things can go a long way. 

 

What I have a big problem with is people using great pieces of land that have great wild life and agriculture potential for building houses and factories instead of using other lands that have a lot less effect on nature.

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