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davieG

Technology, Science and the Environment.

By davieG, in General Chat

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

As a species we are fvcked.  All the publicity about climate change today and what did the question time audience want to dicuss?  The Royals. Not one question on the climate.

I am depressed.

Sadly, I think it will actually take the loss of many lives and livelihoods in the UK (as opposed to people in some faraway place) for people to actually want some meaningful and above all timely change to be made.

 

The problem with that is by the time that kicks off the onus will be on damage limitation rather than actually making things better.

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yorkie1999

yorkie1999

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

As a species we are fvcked.  All the publicity about climate change today and what did the question time audience want to dicuss?  The Royals. Not one question on the climate.

I am depressed.

What's there to discuss? we can't stop the icecaps melting and the seas rising and the temperature increasing, all we can do is give ourselves a few more years of existance.

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Kopfkino

Kopfkino

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

As a species we are fvcked.  All the publicity about climate change today and what did the question time audience want to dicuss?  The Royals. Not one question on the climate.

I am depressed.

As if it matters that Question Time produces the verbatim same 'debate' on climate change every time its in the news. 

 

I mean we're having a (completely pointless) Citizens Assembly on it, that's in theory much better than 15 minutes of signalling on QT

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

As if it matters that Question Time produces the verbatim same 'debate' on climate change every time its in the news. 

 

I mean we're having a (completely pointless) Citizens Assembly on it, that's in theory much better than 15 minutes of signalling on QT

Fair point, though the seeming lack of public awareness on this topic is rather depressing in a democracy when policy tends to rely on the aforementioned public opinion.

 

Mind you, if you look at what the world as a whole, democracies or no, is or isn't doing on the matter, then the whole thing is depressing.

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Carl the Llama

Carl the Llama

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

What's there to discuss? we can't stop the icecaps melting and the seas rising and the temperature increasing, all we can do is give ourselves a few more years of existance.

We absolutely can do something about it, you and millions others choosing not to is precisely why we're in this mess despite science warning us about it for decades.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

We absolutely can do something about it, you and millions others choosing not to is precisely why we're in this mess despite science warning us about it for decades.

It's like some folks can't get their collective heads around the idea of humans being responsible for the death and loss of livelihoods of a few humans directly (let's spend trillions of dollars on a war and thousands more deaths) actually being the same as some more humans being responsible rather less directly for the deaths and loss of livelihoods of more humans now and a great many more soon (let's say the problem doesn't exist or it's made up or there's nothing we can do about it and not spend much at all).

 

I actually think that given the amount of information available on the topic it being "too abstract" a threat for people and so difficult to understand is no longer an excuse.

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Kopfkino

Kopfkino

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Fair point, though the seeming lack of public awareness on this topic is rather depressing in a democracy when policy tends to rely on the aforementioned public opinion.

 

Mind you, if you look at what the world as a whole, democracies or no, is or isn't doing on the matter, then the whole thing is depressing.

There's plenty of public awareness, it's on the news all the time and across a lot of Europe its one of the top policy priorities. (there are people outside of the rednecks in the US that seem to form your opinion of public opinion). In fact it's rammed down your throat that much at the moment that it will get to the stage when people pay no attention due to sheer boredom. 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

There's plenty of public awareness, it's on the news all the time and across a lot of Europe its one of the top policy priorities. (there are people outside of the rednecks in the US that seem to form your opinion of public opinion). In fact it's rammed down your throat that much at the moment that it will get to the stage when people pay no attention due to sheer boredom. 

If that's the case, then the apathy being displayed is even worse - the ignorance being deliberate rather than merely incidental. That's a pretty damning indictment on the people in the know.

 

Do people well-versed on the matter really, truly, still consider the threat either abstract or overstated to the degree that it's such a low priority for them? I honestly do not get that.

 

I'm with you on the Boy Who Cried Wolf parable, it's typical human behaviour - but you and I both know that's Gamblers Ruin Fallacy at its finest and has zero effect on the overall consequences.

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yorkie1999

yorkie1999

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

We absolutely can do something about it, you and millions others choosing not to is precisely why we're in this mess despite science warning us about it for decades.

Where do you get me choosing not to from? Give me an example of what you have done to stop the icecaps melting! 

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Carl the Llama

Carl the Llama

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Where do you get me choosing not to from? Give me an example of what you have done to stop the icecaps melting! 

In the same way we can all infer your apathy from the first comment this one clearly indicates you're gearing up for a tiring bout of pedantry and ear-fingering so I'll pass, thanks.

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yorkie1999

yorkie1999

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

In the same way we can all infer your apathy from the first comment this one clearly indicates you're gearing up for a tiring bout of pedantry and ear-fingering so I'll pass, thanks.

So in other words, you’ve done naff all apart from talk about it.

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Kopfkino

Kopfkino

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

If that's the case, then the apathy being displayed is even worse - the ignorance being deliberate rather than merely incidental. That's a pretty damning indictment on the people in the know.

 

Do people well-versed on the matter really, truly, still consider the threat either abstract or overstated to the degree that it's such a low priority for them? I honestly do not get that.

 

I'm with you on the Boy Who Cried Wolf parable, it's typical human behaviour - but you and I both know that's Gamblers Ruin Fallacy at its finest and has zero effect on the overall consequences.

You can call it apathy, I wouldn't take such a reductivist approach. There's a lot more to it than expecting somebody to click their fingers and just get on with sorting it. 

 

 

 

Tbh it would have been useful if normal eco folk hadn't got giddy when they got some attention and just allowed the loony left to monopolise the issue such that the debate is now often framed as eco socialism vs denial. Its not that long since the loony left held coal mines, factory work and car manufacturing as the be-all-and-end-all, its not like environmentalism is their natural habitat aside from being a signalling device. Becomes very hard to take people on a political journey with you when you frame an issue using language they don't like.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

You can call it apathy, I wouldn't take such a reductivist approach. There's a lot more to it than expecting somebody to click their fingers and just get on with sorting it. 

 

 

 

Tbh it would have been useful if normal eco folk hadn't got giddy when they got some attention and just allowed the loony left to monopolise the issue such that the debate is now often framed as eco socialism vs denial. Its not that long since the loony left held coal mines, factory work and car manufacturing as the be-all-and-end-all, its not like environmentalism is their natural habitat aside from being a signalling device. Becomes very hard to take people on a political journey with you when you frame an issue using language they don't like.

I'm using a pretty simplistic argument because I believe the problem itself is reasonably simple. But yeah, of course there needs to be direction and organisation to make sure that the correct things get done because the task itself is pretty complex, not so simple as you say, someone clicking their fingers.

 

As usual you make a good point about how people are rather than how they can be, as far as I'm concerned the numbers on the problem speak for themselves but that's not the case for all or even most people and as such you do need to frame what needs to be done in a way that is palatable. FWIW as I've said before I'm not really interested in the political mechanics behind the work that needs to be done as long as it gets done barring them turning things into a 1984-style hellscape because the consequences of doing nothing may well be worse than anything but that (aided by humanity warring over more limited resources), but again I can also understand the "red scare" fear given that the problem is being framed in the terms you use (an overly authoritarian left-wing solution is the only thing that will do).

 

It's frustrating for me that such an issue is being used as a political football because the Earth doesn't care in the slightest about politics and what it does can and will be felt by everyone in due course - there's no way to weather out the storm, even for the rich, in the long term. At least helping to guarantee a more likely better future for humanity (and by extension developing some very interesting new tech through innovation) really shouldn't be a left/right issue outside of the nihilists/social Darwinists.

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