Maguire - England debut

[TrentFox]

A couple have already said it in last few posts, but we can never be the best in the world when we play a brand of football that most of the world is better at than we are! England should take a lesson from our title winning season and invent a way that maximises what we have rather than emphasises what we don't have! I think I'll probably die before I get to see Henderson play a killer through ball after ten minutes of aimless passing back and forth across the halfway line. 

[Sampson]

8 hours ago, Kitchandro said:

Most of those players were massively overrated and benefited hugely from playing with great foreign players.

 

Sven was a poor manager but those players didn't even qualify in 2008. They really weren't that good.

They weren't though.

 

This is pre-Barcelona dominance where Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal used to make the CL semi finals almost every year and between 2004-09 there was at least one English finalist.

 

Players like Neville, Terry, Ferdinand and A. Coke were not carried by foreign players - they were star players in their team and England had an excellent defence back then - Gerrard, Lanyard, Scholes and Beckham were good players, they weren't carried by foreign players for their club sides, they made things happened for their clubs - but they never worked for England because we spent 6 years trying to shoehorn the midfielders all into the same side even when it became cliche to the point of parody that "Gerrard and Lampard don't work together" - but we stuck to it at a time when other major nations were all abandoning 4-4-2 - you could say very similar issues to what Leicester have at the moment or what Belgium have had in the past 4 or 5 years where they clearly have a talented squad but just can't make them click as a team.

 

I'm not saying we were the best side in the world but we absolutely had the players to reach a semi-final or final (especially in 04) if we got them all working.

[davieG]

We never really recovered from this as before then we were the unproven best international team in the world.

 

Sixty plus years ago, a football match shook the foundations of the British Empire and encouraged a previously unthinkable dream of freedom in Hungary, says Gellert Tamas.

The time was exactly 16:45. Wembley hosted a sold-out crowd. One hundred and twenty thousand spectators had gathered to see England play Hungary. The "Marvellous Magyars" had remained unbeaten for three years and England had never lost an international at Wembley.

The two captains, Billy Wright and Ferenc Puskas, shook hands. The referee blew his whistle. The game, dubbed the "match of the century" by media all over the world, had started.

Stanley Matthews, Alf Ramsey and the other English players were filled with self-confidence, and rightly so. England was at the height of its power, literally as well as figuratively.

 

Read more at

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25033749

 

 

[ZeGuy]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

It's a difficult one but I don't really think we've got specifically worse after the PL.

 

We're definitely in a very fallow period right now but it was exactly the same in the 70s and 80s and the Graham Taylor era - we had good sides in the 60s, 90, 96 and I do think the one from 02-06 was good but underachieved - but that's not necessarily the PL's fault necesserily as much as coaches at youth level or style of coaching or whatever - we're always baraged with stats about how Germany and Spain have so many more youth coaches than us for example.

 

Idk there's no easy solution, but things about overhauling the style of play, we don't train our youth technically enough or we train the technical skills out of players in favour of physicality - I remember similar complaints being made about England back in the 80s before the PL even began - in fact the main reason the top division was reduced to 20 teams was because the "too many games" complaints were going on decades ago.

 

I think one of the biggest problems is we don't trust our own footballing culture and instead are always trying to follow the flavour of the month - 5 years ago we were trying to follow the Spanish model, now the FA are always trying to follow the German model etc. We're always following other footballing cultures rather than embracing our own and creating our own model.

There is no shame in inspiring yourself from other cultures and take what you'd find beneficial. German football wasn't known to be particularly eye pleasing for example.

 

After the Euro 2000 disaster (the first cracks were already there anyway as we lost 3-0 against Croatia in the WC quarters 1998), it was clear though the old ways were leading to nowhere and a renewal would only go through radical change of thinking and an adaptation to modern football. 

 

The DFB (german equivalent of the english FA) introduced shortly after (2001 I think), a youth development program with more focus on talented young footballers rather than the big physical ones.

 

But above anything else, everything was done to spot these players. More call-ups at a regional level, tight cooperation between clubs and DFB, new regional DFB centers, mandatory performance centers for every Bundesliga club (followed later by the 2.Bundesliga), etc.

 

We were still knocked out in group stage the Euro 2004 but won the WC 10 years later and have a regular presence in the last 4 four in the official tournaments since then. The program is now working at full charge and the next generation is already here.

 

Did we lost our way? I don't think so. Turning up when it matters and the winning mentality are still there, being disciplined, efficient, well organized, giving everything for the collective on the pitch likewise. It doesn't prevent players like Götze, Reus, Özil, Draxler or Werner to thrive. 

 

Here are two articles which describe the german football renewed itself much better than I did:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/sep/05/germany-football-team-youth-development-to-world-cup-win-2014

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/23/germany-bust-boom-talent

Edited 9 October 2017 by ZeGuy

[CosbehFox]

35 minutes ago, ZeGuy said:

There is no shame in inspiring yourself from other cultures and take what you'd find beneficial. German football wasn't known to be particularly eye pleasing for example.

 

After the Euro 2000 disaster (the first cracks were already there anyway as we lost 3-0 against Croatia in the WC quarters 1998), it was clear though the old ways were leading to nowhere and a renewal would only go through radical change of thinking and an adaptation to modern football. 

 

The DFB (german equivalent of the english FA) introduced shortly after (2001 I think), a youth development program with more focus on talented young footballers rather than the big physical ones.

 

But above anything else, everything was done to spot these players. More call-ups at a regional level, tight cooperation between clubs and DFB, new regional DFB centers, mandatory performance centers for every Bundesliga club (followed later by the 2.Bundesliga), etc.

 

We were still knocked out in group stage the Euro 2004 but won the WC 10 years later and have a regular presence in the last 4 four in the official tournaments since then. The program is now working at full charge and the next generation is already here.

 

Did we lost our way? I don't think so. Turning up when it matters and the winning mentality are still there, being disciplined, efficient, well organized, giving everything for the collective on the pitch likewise. It doesn't prevent players like Götze, Reus, Özil, Draxler or Werner to thrive. 

 

Here are two articles which describe the german football renewed itself much better than I did:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/sep/05/germany-football-team-youth-development-to-world-cup-win-2014

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/23/germany-bust-boom-talent

I'll say again - the future doesn't look a problem. 

 

Under 21s - Semi-Finalists of European Championships

Under 20s - World Champions 

Under 19s - European Champions

Under 17s - European Champions Runners-up after losing penalties and conceding a 96th minute equaliser / won 4-0 on Saturday in their first World Cup U17s game. 

 

Add to that - won the Toulon Tournament twice in a row and in the past year that was with a B team. Currently top of the Under 20 Elite League too. This weekend alone:- U21 3-1 win, U20 5-1 win over Italy, U17s won 4-0 over Chile. 

 

The kid's are coming. 

[murphy]

2 hours ago, davieG said:

We never really recovered from this as before then we were the unproven best international team in the world.

 

...

 

 

Apart from winning the world cup 13 years later?

[davieG]

26 minutes ago, murphy said:

 

Apart from winning the world cup 13 years later?

In which we had auto qualification, on home soil, playing 6 games.

Yes I know I watched it.

 

[st albans fox]

58 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I'll say again - the future doesn't look a problem. 

 

Under 21s - Semi-Finalists of European Championships

Under 20s - World Champions 

Under 19s - European Champions

Under 17s - European Champions Runners-up after losing penalties and conceding a 96th minute equaliser / won 4-0 on Saturday in their first World Cup U17s game. 

 

Add to that - won the Toulon Tournament twice in a row and in the past year that was with a B team. Currently top of the Under 20 Elite League too. This weekend alone:- U21 3-1 win, U20 5-1 win over Italy, U17s won 4-0 over Chile. 

 

The kid's are coming. 

I have a theory that we are brought up in this country concentrating too much on winning and brute strength between the ages of 9 and 17 and not enough on technique etc. hence our younger teams seem to have a small competitive edge when playing internationals.  once the playing field begins to even out re size and mental strength, we are left with no advantage at all and not much technique either !!

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I'll say again - the future doesn't look a problem. 

 

Under 21s - Semi-Finalists of European Championships

Under 20s - World Champions 

Under 19s - European Champions

Under 17s - European Champions Runners-up after losing penalties and conceding a 96th minute equaliser / won 4-0 on Saturday in their first World Cup U17s game. 

 

Add to that - won the Toulon Tournament twice in a row and in the past year that was with a B team. Currently top of the Under 20 Elite League too. This weekend alone:- U21 3-1 win, U20 5-1 win over Italy, U17s won 4-0 over Chile. 

 

The kid's are coming. 

Wait till they start getting paid the mega bucks and it all goes to their heads.

[CosbehFox]

2 hours ago, st albans fox said:

I have a theory that we are brought up in this country concentrating too much on winning and brute strength between the ages of 9 and 17 and not enough on technique etc. hence our younger teams seem to have a small competitive edge when playing internationals.  once the playing field begins to even out re size and mental strength, we are left with no advantage at all and not much technique either !!

Take Sessegon at Fulham, he's a good example of the type of player England are producing in an attacking sense. He's not the biggest guy but has games where he spellbounds opposition.

 

Your theory doesn't explain the success of the Under 20s either. Players like Lewis Cook are hardly huge guys and he's about to be an established PL player

Edited 9 October 2017 by Cardiff_Fox

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

Wait till they start getting paid the mega bucks and it all goes to their heads.

Except there's a sea of change in this regard. Take Sancho in the summer. He could have stayed at Man City and received little playing time. He rejected their contract offers and went with Dortmund. He will be fully integrated with the first team there. 

 

Similar examples are Willock going Benfica and Hinds to Wolfsburg. Sessegon at Fulham hasn't pushed for a move at all. Lewis Cook when leaving Leeds went Bournemouth instead. 

[st albans fox]

57 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Take Sessegon at Fulham, he's a good example of the type of player England are producing in an attacking sense. He's not the biggest guy but has games where he spellbounds opposition.

 

Your theory doesn't explain the success of the Under 20s either. Players like Lewis Cook are hardly huge guys and he's about to be an established PL player

 

Wont all be about brute strength - bound to be some exceptions to the rule 

[Leeds Fox]

15 hours ago, davieG said:

In which we had auto qualification, on home soil, playing 6 games.

Yes I know I watched it.

 

 

That's like saying we never recovered from our great escape season. 

 

England are poor, but it isn't because of something that happened in 1953.

[davieG]

Just now, Leeds Fox said:

 

That's like saying we never recovered from our great escape season. 

 

England are poor, but it isn't because of something that happened in 1953.

Well I wasn't being entirely serious about the after effects but we were considered the best team in the world prior to that game.

[Stevosevic]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/03/06/burnley-defender-james-tarkowski-line-england-call-up-friendlies/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

That means Southgate has a gap to fill in his three-man defence, as he attempts to find the right man to play alongside John Stones and Harry Maguire, whose places in England’s World Cup squad are assured.

[ARTY_FOX]

4 minutes ago, Stevosevic said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/03/06/burnley-defender-james-tarkowski-line-england-call-up-friendlies/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

That means Southgate has a gap to fill in his three-man defence, as he attempts to find the right man to play alongside John Stones and Harry Maguire, whose places in England’s World Cup squad are assured.

So it should be. He's ridiculous. 

[RumbleFox]

He's gonna be a ledge aint he?  Love the big man.  X

[lildave3]

Give me Tarkowski and Dunk over John ****ing Stones