leicsmac Posted 2 April 2018 Posted 2 April 2018 15 minutes ago, Kopfkino said: No there is definitely still a story in that at the current rate its set to be the worst year in London for 13 years, one of the worst in 20 years, and is 40% higher than it was three years ago. Plus knife crime is up by a quarter. Maybe the comparisons to New York aren't so useful, but it's still a problem no matter how bad it is anywhere else. 1 But then ealing suggests that the rate was as high as this under Johnson and Livingstone in recent times - can this be sourced? I'd agree that it's a problem, but it's pretty easy to overexaggerate the comparisons.
ealingfox Posted 2 April 2018 Posted 2 April 2018 The key is that it's set to be. Figures are done by the year and there's another 9 months left of this year. As I said in my first post we've got an official problem if this rate plateaus or increases until December. Edit - obviously knife crime is an official problem already. I mean in terms of homicides being worse than New York. The figures I used were from wiki which appear to have been lifted from MPS figures. There are so many issues with dealing with crime stats in general it's really hard to draw accurate pictures of specific issues.
Ian Nacho Posted 2 April 2018 Posted 2 April 2018 Surely deaths caused by terrorism should be exempted from the report?
Vardinio'sCat Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 14 hours ago, Buce said: I think he has a point. Knife crime in London is largely black-on-black, yet if the police use their 'stop and search' powers the pc brigade start bitching about racial profiling. PC brigade as in Theresa May? Didn't she tell the Fuzz to reduce the use of the tactic? Perhaps other factors are in play regarding this story, as well as stop and search.
Vardinio'sCat Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 I think it's an interesting thread really, because TM was the one backing off on stop and search. I'm sure she will have found support amongst the usual targets, but it is worth bearing in mind who reduced stop and search. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stop-and-search-theresa-may-announces-reform-of-police-stop-and-search Perhaps Austerity has been a factor too, as it seems to have been across our public services. Weren't the police complaining about the loss of neighborhood policing in relation to terrorism offences a few months ago? I've always had a bit of respect for TM for stopping the inexorable rise in police budgets, but as with our other public services, eventually you will cut to the bone, and then services (on which we all depend) become less effective. On the day that the former health secretary Andrew Lansley said that NHS cuts might have stopped his cancer being caught early earlier, perhaps we could all reflect that every one of us is just one very bad day away from relying on public services that are seriously struggling. Thanks to Ealingfox for digging deeper and giving us better context. It's often better to have a good look behind the headlines, before going into full knee-jerk mode.
ozleicester Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 Its easy to ask an untrained commenter on a football forum how to solve a problem that has raged forever, and then shoot them down. Perhaps we can also come up with a simple way to end the daily beatings and murder of white women by white men? Perhaps all white men with wives or girlfriends should be searched and questioned (especially if they are known to have consumed alcohol.) on a daily basis? Introducing laws that target one race, colour, group etc is simply wrong and will not solve anything. Providing support, opportunity and a realistic future might be a start. edit... Two women are killed each week by a current or former partner in England and Wales Office for National Statistics (2016) Compendium – Homicide (average taken over 10 years) In the year ending March 2016, 1.2 million women reported experiences of domestic abuse in England and Wales White women are more at risk of domestic abuse than ethnic minority women, with 7.4 per cent reported being victims of abuse compared with 4.4 per cent of ethnic minority women
Innovindil Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 1 hour ago, ozleicester said: Its easy to ask an untrained commenter on a football forum how to solve a problem that has raged forever, and then shoot them down. Perhaps we can also come up with a simple way to end the daily beatings and murder of white women by white men? Perhaps all white men with wives or girlfriends should be searched and questioned (especially if they are known to have consumed alcohol.) on a daily basis? Introducing laws that target one race, colour, group etc is simply wrong and will not solve anything. Providing support, opportunity and a realistic future might be a start. edit... Two women are killed each week by a current or former partner in England and Wales Office for National Statistics (2016) Compendium – Homicide (average taken over 10 years) In the year ending March 2016, 1.2 million women reported experiences of domestic abuse in England and Wales White women are more at risk of domestic abuse than ethnic minority women, with 7.4 per cent reported being victims of abuse compared with 4.4 per cent of ethnic minority women What exactly are you going to search them for? A prodigy album?
Buce Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 5 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said: PC brigade as in Theresa May? Didn't she tell the Fuzz to reduce the use of the tactic? Do you not suppose she was under pressure to do so? I think there is no question that 'stop and search' in its application is viewed as racist by many in the ethnic minority communities. 5 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said: Perhaps other factors are in play regarding this story, as well as stop and search. I'm sure you're right, but it is one part of a possible solution which isn't being used because of sensitivity over racial profiling. https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/theresa-mays-stop-and-search-shake-up-is-costing-lives/
Buce Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 1 hour ago, ozleicester said: Its easy to ask an untrained commenter on a football forum how to solve a problem that has raged forever, and then shoot them down. Perhaps we can also come up with a simple way to end the daily beatings and murder of white women by white men? Perhaps all white men with wives or girlfriends should be searched and questioned (especially if they are known to have consumed alcohol.) on a daily basis? Introducing laws that target one race, colour, group etc is simply wrong and will not solve anything. Providing support, opportunity and a realistic future might be a start. 1 But the law itself doesn't target 'one race, colour or group', it's how the police apply it, and historically they have undoubtedly abused their powers to disproportionately stop and search ethnic minorities. But since this is a problem that is happening within the black community, it stands to reason that those who are stopped and searched are going to be black, surely? And being overly sensitive to that is meanwhile costing black lives.
ozleicester Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 15 minutes ago, Buce said: But the law itself doesn't target 'one race, colour or group', it's how the police apply it, and historically they have undoubtedly abused their powers to disproportionately stop and search ethnic minorities. But since this is a problem that is happening within the black community, it stands to reason that those who are stopped and searched are going to be black, surely? And being overly sensitive to that is meanwhile costing black lives. Bugger, i lost all of my eloquent a useful comments....:( The "law" doesn't target one group... the police do. Stop and seacrh will impactt almost entirley on the black community which will do nothing to end the problem, it may even exacerbate it. The domestic abuse "epidemic" is affecting the white community (almost twice as many white women as ethnic), but im not hearing suggestions that police sit outside pubs and question every white bloke as he leaves, checking for his mental state and likleyhood to kill or beat his partner.
ozleicester Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 45 minutes ago, Innovindil said: What exactly are you going to search them for? A prodigy album? If youve got a prodigy album,, you should be in some form of rehab
Innovindil Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 2 minutes ago, ozleicester said: Bugger, i lost all of my eloquent a useful comments....:( The "law" doesn't target one group... the police do. Stop and seacrh will impactt almost entirley on the black community which will do nothing to end the problem, it may even exacerbate it. The domestic abuse "epidemic" is affecting the white community (almost twice as many white women as ethnic), but im not hearing suggestions that police sit outside pubs and question every white bloke as he leaves, checking for his mental state and likleyhood to kill or beat his partner. Already been shown with figures to appear false. Either stop and search had a positive effect as the numbers show, or stop and search had zero effect and mere fortune saw the numbers drop while it was in effect. I know which one I'd have my money on.
ozleicester Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 Just now, Innovindil said: Already been shown with figures to appear false. Either stop and search had a positive effect as the numbers show, or stop and search had zero effect and mere fortune saw the numbers drop while it was in effect. I know which one I'd have my money on. Im suggesting long term it would have a negative impact..... distrust and antagonism between police and community?
Buce Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 2 minutes ago, ozleicester said: Bugger, i lost all of my eloquent a useful comments....:( The "law" doesn't target one group... the police do. Stop and seacrh will impactt almost entirley on the black community which will do nothing to end the problem, it may even exacerbate it. The domestic abuse "epidemic" is affecting the white community (almost twice as many white women as ethnic), but im not hearing suggestions that police sit outside pubs and question every white bloke as he leaves, checking for his mental state and likleyhood to kill or beat his partner. 6 Are we talking about Australia or the UK? Of course domestic abuse is problematic, but 'stop and question' isn't really a serious proposition to solve it. Stopping people carrying guns and knives is a pretty effective way of stopping others being shot or stabbed.
Innovindil Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 1 minute ago, ozleicester said: Im suggesting long term it would have a negative impact..... distrust and antagonism between police and community? Okay, now prove it. If the police are able to show a significant drop in knife/gun crime, I'm fairly certain the communities being plagued with violent crime would be welcoming of what is essentially a mild inconvenience.
ozleicester Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 7 minutes ago, Buce said: Are we talking about Australia or the UK? Of course domestic abuse is problematic, but 'stop and question' isn't really a serious proposition to solve it. Stopping people carrying guns and knives is a pretty effective way of stopping others being shot or stabbed. UK IMO stop and question would have equal impact on reduction that stop and search will on knife crime. But we dont target this... why?
ozleicester Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 5 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Okay, now prove it. If the police are able to show a significant drop in knife/gun crime, I'm fairly certain the communities being plagued with violent crime would be welcoming of what is essentially a mild inconvenience. I cant prove it. so yup, lets go for it, remove peoples rights and freedoms, nothing can possibli go wrong.
Buce Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 2 minutes ago, ozleicester said: UK IMO stop and question would have equal impact on reduction that stop and search will on knife crime. But we dont target this... why? How would it? A knife is a physical object which can be seen - the intention to go home and abuse one's partner requires the honesty and cooperation of the suspect.
Innovindil Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 2 minutes ago, ozleicester said: UK IMO stop and question would have equal impact on reduction that stop and search will on knife crime. But we dont target this... why? Police offericer: are you going to beat your missus? Person: no. Police officer, who doesn't have mind reading powers: okay then. Police officer: do you have a knife/gun/weapon etc? Person: no. Police officer, who can search for knife/gun/weapon etc: yes you do. Unsurprisingly, not the same result. 2 minutes ago, ozleicester said: I cant prove it. so yup, lets go for it, remove peoples rights and freedoms, nothing can possibli go wrong. A 5 minute stop and search to help save lives? Yes, we should definitely go for it. It must be so easy being morally superior when not dealing with the results. Maybe we should ask the parents of the 17 year old girl who was shot dead last night in London how much your feelings mean to them.
ozleicester Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 2 minutes ago, Buce said: How would it? A knife is a physical object which can be seen - the intention to go home and abuse one's partner requires the honesty and cooperation of the suspect. A fair proportion of the abusers would be pissed violent aholes, that the police could fairly easily figure are a risk, and remove until they arent any more. Either way, its a mild inconvenience to the community and will save lives (probably more than the knife stop and search) The figures were from the UK from this page (which makes for some very sad reading) https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/latest-projects/race-report-statistics
ozleicester Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 2 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Police offericer: are you going to beat your missus? Person: no. Police officer, who doesn't have mind reading powers: okay then. Police officer: do you have a knife/gun/weapon etc? Person: no. Police officer, who can search for knife/gun/weapon etc: yes you do. Unsurprisingly, not the same result. A 5 minute stop and search to help save lives? Yes, we should definitely go for it. It must be so easy being morally superior when not dealing with the results. Maybe we should ask the parents of the 17 year old girl who was shot dead last night in London how much your feelings mean to them. A mild inconvenience i should think. and they can tell when the piss head is a danger. As for the "lets ask the parents", thats just pathetic, lets ask the children of the two women killed every week, or the women in hospital or hiding etc etc etc.
Buce Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 12 minutes ago, ozleicester said: A fair proportion of the abusers would be pissed violent aholes, that the police could fairly easily figure are a risk, and remove until they arent any more. Either way, its a mild inconvenience to the community and will save lives (probably more than the knife stop and search) The figures were from the UK from this page (which makes for some very sad reading) https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/latest-projects/race-report-statistics 9 minutes ago, ozleicester said: A mild inconvenience i should think. and they can tell when the piss head is a danger. As for the "lets ask the parents", thats just pathetic, lets ask the children of the two women killed every week, or the women in hospital or hiding etc etc etc. Since something like 70% of violent crime is linked to alcohol consumption, you are statistically correct. So, wouldn't it just make sense to ban alcohol instead?
ozleicester Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 6 minutes ago, Buce said: Since something like 70% of violent crime is linked to alcohol consumption, you are statistically correct. So, wouldn't it just make sense to ban alcohol instead? Not going there... Ive derailed this discussion enough (sorry everyone) (but yes..that and legalise .... it)
Guest Kopfkino Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 17 year old girl shot dead last night. A 16 year old boy shot and in a critical condition and a 15 year old boy stabbed, condition unknown.
James. Posted 3 April 2018 Posted 3 April 2018 It feels less safe here than it has ever has. I still think you are highly unlikely to be a murder victim unless you are involved in gangs but regardless it's the threat of other violence / crime which becomes more of an issue for the general public - things like muggings, thefts, etc all of which certainly feel as if they are more prevalent nowadays. There is a certain brazenness / complete lack of giving a shit that embodies a lot of young people - the value they place on their own life and others seems at an all time low. And I think that comes from a variety of factors - reduced funding for police and youth work must be a big part of it. And then the desensitising nature of social media probably also having an impact. But it's complex and to be frank I have no idea what the answers are. Crime (alongside air pollution) were two of the big reasons we have decided to move away from the city after living here for nearly 14 years.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.