Webbo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 5 hours ago, Rogstanley said: No I know it has been going on for years. I remember watching McIntyre Undercover on the subject probably 20 years ago. Point is that we're seeing a big spike in murders now, considerably more than we've seen in the past so the problem is definitely getting worse under this government and I think my point about young people feeling excluded from society stands. Not saying labour or any other government would stroll in and fix the issue immediately but it's a certainty that the sort of divisive policies and austerity we get from the Tories will make it worse. That's why it's getting worse. 5 hours ago, purpleronnie said: As tragic as it is I think we need some perspective here. Yes its risen higher than NY, but that's for 3 months, its highly unlikely to be higher than NY over the year, and NY murder rate is much lower than it used to be. London still has a murder rate that's actually lower than it was a decade ago. It's a hot news story so everything that happens in London now is getting reported. The murder rate was actually higher when there were more policemen. But community policing is important, you need policemen patrolling the beat in those high crime areas. But there is a bigger wider issue that encompasses mental health, gangs, rehabilitation, community centres, etc...just look to Glasgow to see how much work is needed to change things. So if the murder rate is lower than it was a decade ago does that mean that tory austerity hasn't made it worse?
Rogstanley Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 46 minutes ago, Webbo said: So if the murder rate is lower than it was a decade ago does that mean that tory austerity hasn't made it worse? It's getting worse. That's literally what every news article on the subject over the last week or so has been about.
Webbo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 33 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: It's getting worse. That's literally what every news article on the subject over the last week or so has been about. But it was getting better under exactly the same austerity?
Rogstanley Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: But it was getting better under exactly the same austerity? Don't know. If you want to make that point then you find the stats to back it up. All i've seen reported is that it's getting worse now, and to be honest what's happening now is more important than what happened X years ago isn't it.
Webbo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Don't know. If you want to make that point then you find the stats to back it up. All i've seen reported is that it's getting worse now, and to be honest what's happening now is more important than what happened X years ago isn't it. Could it be that it's nothing to do with the govt?
Rogstanley Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: Could it be that it's nothing to do with the govt? I think the government are generally considered responsible for upholding law and order don't you.
Webbo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 Just now, Rogstanley said: I think the government are generally considered responsible for upholding law and order don't you. So there won't be any crime when Corbyn gets in?
Guest MattP Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 Sick of hearing about it being government cuts under the Tories or because Khan is the Labour Mayor of London. Social issues, culture or lack of police officers. None of this causes someone to be so morally bankrupt they are prepared to kill someone. The people that do this haven't been taught right from wrong and 99% of the time that comes down to parenting.
Carl the Llama Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 25 minutes ago, Webbo said: So there won't be any crime when Corbyn gets in? Only thought crime but the wronguns like you will be reeducated soon enough.
Rogstanley Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 28 minutes ago, MattP said: Sick of hearing about it being government cuts under the Tories or because Khan is the Labour Mayor of London. Social issues, culture or lack of police officers. None of this causes someone to be so morally bankrupt they are prepared to kill someone. The people that do this haven't been taught right from wrong and 99% of the time that comes down to parenting. I think quality of parenting is definitely a factor and that's why cuts to things like childcare can be so damaging. Why are some parents so much worse than others do you think? Just follow the life of a bad parent and you'll see the impact of the government all along. Say they're born into a minority ethnic group that in reality does not have the same opportunities as others due to discrimination - straight away they're at a disadvantage and a government who does nothing to redress the balance has missed an opportunity to help. They grow up in a poor family who can't afford to feed them properly, the one opportunity they get for a nourishing meal is at school but school meal funding cutbacks can mean even that becomes out of reach. Another disadvantage. The quality of their education can suffer from cuts. We know in many parts of the country parents are actually having to self-fund schools, a situation that is absolutely scandalous in a so called wealthy country. But if you grow up poor your parents can't afford to contribute and you're probably going to get a limited number of years of poor quality education. Then, if you're lucky enough to get a job then it's probably low paid so when you have kids you're reliant on things like childcare vouchers and a decent quality of childcare being available just to keep the wolf from your family's door. What do you think happens when the government comes along and pulls that rug from under you as well? It all crashes down. What quality of parenting are you actually able to offer, when you're in such a shit situation? It's no wonder so many families break apart really is it. As you can see the government have impacted upon the story every step of the way and in the case of the Tories it's negative impact after negative impact I'm afraid.
Alf Bentley Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 26 minutes ago, MattP said: Sick of hearing about it being government cuts under the Tories or because Khan is the Labour Mayor of London. Social issues, culture or lack of police officers. None of this causes someone to be so morally bankrupt they are prepared to kill someone. The people that do this haven't been taught right from wrong and 99% of the time that comes down to parenting. Fred & Rose West, Shipman, Nilsen, Brady & Hindley, Bellfield, Ian Huntley, Venables & Thompson and the Yorkshire Ripper all largely grew up under Tory govts. It's official: Tory govts cause moral bankruptcy, poor parenting and mass murder.
Izzy Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: I think quality of parenting is definitely a factor and that's why cuts to things like childcare can be so damaging. Why are some parents so much worse than others do you think? Because their own parents were probably idiots too.
Milo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 Tony Blair said this on the matter a decade ago... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/apr/12/ukcrime.race
Countryfox Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Fred & Rose West, Shipman, Nilsen, Brady & Hindley, Bellfield, Ian Huntley, Venables & Thompson and the Yorkshire Ripper all largely grew up under Tory govts. It's official: Tory govts cause moral bankruptcy, poor parenting and mass murder. And don’t forget that Churchill geezer Alf ... shedloads died when he was in power ... Tories OUT !!
SpacedX Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 On 04/04/2018 at 19:11, Rogstanley said: Reacting with authoritative force will bring the stats down short term but will only stoke the flames of discontent and marginalisation still further and ultimately make the problem worse. The key is to make people feel part of and responsibility for the society in which they live, but there isn’t much profit in that, so nobody can be arsed. Tory Britain. Street gangs could not be eliminated by additional law enforcement efforts, unless we were to give up essentially every Constitutional right we have. Even that may not totally eliminate the problem. With our guarantees of liberty, police can only act within certain parameters, and simple membership in an organisation is not one of those. If you truly want to rid society of organised crime, do not look to government or law enforcement. Look to yourself - rhetorically, at least. We have a very broken society, where far too many neither practice nor teach their prodigy ethics, mores, or self discipline. Hedonism without discipline soon results in adoption of self serving situational ethics; I will get mine, and the rest if you may pay me for it. Eliminating gangs is essentially an anti-insurgent effort. The enemy is everywhere. He does not wear a uniform or subscribe to a specific loyalty. He can easily play both sides, helping one faction today and the other tomorrow. The arguably non-involved community is rarely impartial, as they are either intimidated by the gang or profiting in some way by the gang's activities. Identifying the hostiles is extremely difficult. The gang and its allies have an advantage in that they have no rule book. Law enforcement is required to observe laws concerning civil rights, criminal procedure and the gathering of evidence. Gangs, drug dealers, and many other criminal elements exist because people tolerate them. In most any community where criminal enterprises operate openly, the typical citizen possesses enough knowledge of operations to provide valuable information to law enforcement. They are dissuaded from doing so because they are either afraid of retribution by the criminal element, or they have some stake in seeing the criminal element persist. People can be their own worst enemies. You can see in other countries where they're less concerned with rule of law and civil liberties, the government has truly pushed a 'take-no-prisoners,' 'war on gangs' approach - there are huge problems associated with this although in most cases this hasn't lead to a uniform breakdown of liberty or the rise of totalitarianism. On the other hand, you may forfeit your freedom for security; there have been "safe" streets and societies in the 20th century - unfortunately Nazi Germany, Stalinist Soviet Union, and Maoist China immediately spring to mind.
Milo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 1 minute ago, Line-X said: Street gangs could not be eliminated by additional law enforcement efforts, unless we were to give up essentially every Constitutional right we have. Even that may not totally eliminate the problem. With our guarantees of liberty, police can only act within certain parameters, and simple membership in an organisation is not one of those. If you truly want to rid society of organised crime, do not look to government or law enforcement. Look to yourself - rhetorically, at least. We have a very broken society, where far too many neither practice nor teach their prodigy ethics, mores, or self discipline. Hedonism without discipline soon results in adoption of self serving situational ethics; I will get mine, and the rest if you may pay me for it. Eliminating gangs is essentially an anti-insurgent effort. The enemy is everywhere. He does not wear a uniform or subscribe to a specific loyalty. He can easily play both sides, helping one faction today and the other tomorrow. The arguably non-involved community is rarely impartial, as they are either intimidated by the gang or profiting in some way by the gang's activities. Identifying the hostiles is extremely difficult. The gang and its allies have an advantage in that they have no rule book. Law enforcement is required to observe laws concerning civil rights, criminal procedure and the gathering of evidence. Gangs, drug dealers, and many other criminal elements exist because people tolerate them. In most any community where criminal enterprises operate openly, the typical citizen possesses enough knowledge of operations to provide valuable information to law enforcement. They are dissuaded from doing so because they are either afraid of retribution by the criminal element, or they have some stake in seeing the criminal element persist. People can be their own worst enemies. You can see in other countries where they're less concerned with rule of law and civil liberties, the government has truly pushed a 'take-no-prisoners,' 'war on gangs' approach - there are huge problems associated with this although in most cases this hasn't lead to a uniform breakdown of liberty or the rise of totalitarianism. On the other hand, you may forfeit your freedom for security; there have been "safe" streets and societies in the 20th century - unfortunately Nazi Germany, Stalinist Soviet Union, and Maoist China immediately spring to mind. Pardon?
SpacedX Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 Just now, Milo said: Pardon? Did you find out who nicked your car?
Countryfox Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 1 minute ago, Milo said: Pardon? He said .... 3 minutes ago, Line-X said: Street gangs could not be eliminated by additional law enforcement efforts, unless we were to give up essentially every Constitutional right we have. Even that may not totally eliminate the problem. With our guarantees of liberty, police can only act within certain parameters, and simple membership in an organisation is not one of those. If you truly want to rid society of organised crime, do not look to government or law enforcement. Look to yourself - rhetorically, at least. We have a very broken society, where far too many neither practice nor teach their prodigy ethics, mores, or self discipline. Hedonism without discipline soon results in adoption of self serving situational ethics; I will get mine, and the rest if you may pay me for it. Eliminating gangs is essentially an anti-insurgent effort. The enemy is everywhere. He does not wear a uniform or subscribe to a specific loyalty. He can easily play both sides, helping one faction today and the other tomorrow. The arguably non-involved community is rarely impartial, as they are either intimidated by the gang or profiting in some way by the gang's activities. Identifying the hostiles is extremely difficult. The gang and its allies have an advantage in that they have no rule book. Law enforcement is required to observe laws concerning civil rights, criminal procedure and the gathering of evidence. Gangs, drug dealers, and many other criminal elements exist because people tolerate them. In most any community where criminal enterprises operate openly, the typical citizen possesses enough knowledge of operations to provide valuable information to law enforcement. They are dissuaded from doing so because they are either afraid of retribution by the criminal element, or they have some stake in seeing the criminal element persist. People can be their own worst enemies. You can see in other countries where they're less concerned with rule of law and civil liberties, the government has truly pushed a 'take-no-prisoners,' 'war on gangs' approach - there are huge problems associated with this although in most cases this hasn't lead to a uniform breakdown of liberty or the rise of totalitarianism. On the other hand, you may forfeit your freedom for security; there have been "safe" streets and societies in the 20th century - unfortunately Nazi Germany, Stalinist Soviet Union, and Maoist China immediately spring to mind. Got it ? ...
Milo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 3 minutes ago, Line-X said: Did you find out who nicked your car? No - thanks for asking, though
SpacedX Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 Just now, Milo said: No - thanks for asking, though Sorry to hear that. Probably a gang
Milo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 Just now, Line-X said: Sorry to hear that. Probably a gang Mate, I live 5 miles from Croydon...you think??!
Milo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 Re @Line-X comments on never being able to remove gangs without turning into Hitler or Mao... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/06/glasgow-murder-rate-knife-gang-crime-police Heard this the other day on R4 - really interesting approach to combatting it.
SpacedX Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 10 minutes ago, Milo said: Mate, I live 5 miles from Croydon...you think??! Yes
Milo Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 7 minutes ago, Line-X said: Yes - I’ll pop in to Croydon this evening and love all the little rascals so much that they’ll see the error of their ways, repent, and give me my car back...! wish me luck
Innovindil Posted 6 April 2018 Posted 6 April 2018 2 hours ago, Rogstanley said: I think quality of parenting is definitely a factor and that's why cuts to things like childcare can be so damaging. Why are some parents so much worse than others do you think? Just follow the life of a bad parent and you'll see the impact of the government all along. Say they're born into a minority ethnic group that in reality does not have the same opportunities as others due to discrimination - straight away they're at a disadvantage and a government who does nothing to redress the balance has missed an opportunity to help. They grow up in a poor family who can't afford to feed them properly, the one opportunity they get for a nourishing meal is at school but school meal funding cutbacks can mean even that becomes out of reach. Another disadvantage. The quality of their education can suffer from cuts. We know in many parts of the country parents are actually having to self-fund schools, a situation that is absolutely scandalous in a so called wealthy country. But if you grow up poor your parents can't afford to contribute and you're probably going to get a limited number of years of poor quality education. Then, if you're lucky enough to get a job then it's probably low paid so when you have kids you're reliant on things like childcare vouchers and a decent quality of childcare being available just to keep the wolf from your family's door. What do you think happens when the government comes along and pulls that rug from under you as well? It all crashes down. What quality of parenting are you actually able to offer, when you're in such a shit situation? It's no wonder so many families break apart really is it. As you can see the government have impacted upon the story every step of the way and in the case of the Tories it's negative impact after negative impact I'm afraid. Complete utter tosh. I think this is the first time a post on here has actually made me angry. Who the **** are you to be coming into here and suggesting poor people can't be good parents. You make a mockery over every good parent that has suffered through poverty by providing a ridiculous cop-out for the bad parents. It's not their fault they're shit parents because they have no money? Get in the ****ing bin.
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