Jon the Hat Posted 8 April 2018 Posted 8 April 2018 The question is how do we give these kids a useful role in society, and a vision of their future which doesn’t involve drugs, knives and guns.
nnfox Posted 8 April 2018 Posted 8 April 2018 Violence is probably slightly up, but the level of violence is rising quicker. Assualts now are generally more serious now to what they used to be. Gang violence in particular is concerning as it usually involves a weapon of some sort, whether that be a knife, some acid or a gun. Gone are the days of sorting a problem out with a traditional punch up. Gangs are now pretty much in every town and city. Local gangs, the type that most people think of, are usually started by two or three local "hard" lads who deal drugs and then recruit and groom younger boys and girls to do their dirty work like running drugs or fighting. It's been like that for a long time, but a perfect storm has taken place and I believe the following have all contributed: 1. Cuts to policing and the direction from government to reduce the use of stop and search has resulted in a feeling amongst our troubled youth that they are less likely to be caught carrying drugs or weapons. 2. Grime music glorifies violent crime and is a big influence on a small section of our society. Just like mods and rockers, punks, new romatics etc etc, this music has a huge grip on some people who live in a world where they expect to treat girls like porn stars, they hold little value to their own or anyone else's life and aspire to either go to prison or be killed on the street as a "soldier". 3. Social media, in particular YouTube and other forums that allow videos, are platforms where gangs can show strength in numbers and target messgaes of intent to rivals. 4. Big city gangs are expanding and franchising their drugs lines to other towns and cities. They bring with them increased levels of violence in order to take control of an area, resulting in turf wars between the locals and the outsiders.
NorthfieldsFox Posted 8 April 2018 Posted 8 April 2018 Streets are awash with cheap over cut coke and other drugs , this is fuelling a violent society , london is a city full of out of control children with parents who can’t deal with them , police/education/social services are swamped with a tsunami of referrals and at the same time Tory’s continue to cut health and social care budgets. Policing is hamstrung by the politically correct brigade , social services are unable to react to situation and education is too focused on being run like a business. Gang cultures exist and flourish and become powerful when society fails to offer protection and support for those that need it. We have created this mess , we all have
Buce Posted 8 April 2018 Posted 8 April 2018 47 minutes ago, NorthfieldsFox said: Streets are awash with cheap over cut coke and other drugs , this is fuelling a violent society , london is a city full of out of control children with parents who can’t deal with them , police/education/social services are swamped with a tsunami of referrals and at the same time Tory’s continue to cut health and social care budgets. Policing is hamstrung by the politically correct brigade , social services are unable to react to situation and education is too focused on being run like a business. Gang cultures exist and flourish and become powerful when society fails to offer protection and support for those that need it. We have created this mess , we all have Well, you can hardly blame people getting the hump if their coke is being over-cut can you? It’s not like they can complain to Trading Standards.
AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 9 April 2018 Posted 9 April 2018 17 hours ago, leicsmac said: Going by his posting in the past, I'm going to give AOTFYN the beneft of the doubt that he was engaging in some kind of esoteric pisstaking here rather than saying what he said sincerely. Taking one religious text that was written (and rehashed) by men a few hundred years ago as an absolute moral code and saying that is responsible for the moral upkeep of society is...laughable, IMO. Agree with this, I do talk some s*** and its a tough habit to break
leicsmac Posted 9 April 2018 Posted 9 April 2018 7 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: Agree with this, I do talk some s*** and its a tough habit to break This should be the FT motto tbh.
Buce Posted 9 April 2018 Posted 9 April 2018 Is new music genre driving the killings? https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/apr/09/uk-drill-music-london-wave-violent-crime
Guest MattP Posted 9 April 2018 Posted 9 April 2018 No idea about that new shit, but once I had to listen to some London "grime" and even I felt like going on a murder spree.
Guest MattP Posted 9 April 2018 Posted 9 April 2018 On 07/04/2018 at 13:40, Alf Bentley said: Extraordinary interview with David Lammy in today's Grauniad, @MattP: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/06/david-lammy-kids-are-getting-killed-where-is-the-prime-minister-where-is-sadiq-khan I had genuinely mixed feelings about the bloke (positive and negative) before reading that - and feel the same after reading it. On the one hand, he comes across as very emotionally volatile (as he does in interviews I've seen) and a bit of an ego-driven drama queen. On the other hand, he's clearly a lot less cynical than many politicians and it's good to hear someone who genuinely cares about things, whether you agree with what he says or not. He does argue some good points in that interview, I think - not least re. the complex connections between crime, poverty, morality, community etc. Yet I can see why he's not made the front bench - not due to racism, but because he'd be a bloody difficult bloke to work with, I'd guess. It's good that someone can be a passionate advocate for those too often ignored, but at the same time he can be rash: his comments on the number of deaths at Grenfell were rash. I was surprised myself that the number of deaths wasn't higher (presumably because a lot of people escaped due to the fire taking hold outside the building, not inside?), but a bloke in his prominent position shouldn't be throwing about emotional accusations before knowing the evidence. Re. that video footage of him commenting on the lack of police....with a plod in the background (): I did notice on the BBC News that it was the same location where the lad had been stabbed to death, so the plod probably wasn't there usually. Again, though, that video was amusing evidence that Lammy could do with thinking a bit more carefully before he emotes....or is that just conforming to the dominant cynicism of PR-driven politics? I actually think he's quite a character, almost a bit of Boris in him (although the joke has worn off with him now) - he could even become a British comic instituion, a type of a Frank Spencer or Norman Wisdom, he appears to be one of those people whatever situation they'll manage to make a tit of themselves, sometimes at their own acord (i.e him turning on Mastermind despite not having the knowledge to do so) or just very unluckily i.e his interview this week. I don't doubt for one minute he cares a lot about his constituents. The problem I have with him is he often sees no problem wasting police time when he wants to virtue signal, he copied Met Police into his tweet reporting a picture the account Vote Leave had shared last week to ask if a hate crime had been committed, then a few days later he's on the news complaining that we don't have enough police on the streets, he's one of the reasons for that reporting pictures because he doesn't like people who campaigned for Brexit. There do seem to be a lot of MP's now who want lots of police on the streets but then also to make sure they can't do anything. He's on record saying he'll fight stop and search just a couple of months, does he really think people will think twice about carrying knives if the police force are turned into real life cardboard cut outs? I doubt they care anyway.
Sharpe's Fox Posted 9 April 2018 Posted 9 April 2018 Opposition to working class culture is always used as an excuse to oppress. Whether it’s football culture in the eighties, mods in the sixties, now it’s the black music scene. It’s only philistine if you don’t like high art don’t y’know?
Buce Posted 9 April 2018 Posted 9 April 2018 12 minutes ago, MattP said: Foreign Secretary? I could probably bring some respect back to that office given the last few months. Although if @Sharpe's Fox was holding higher office than me I think I'd last less time than the uncle Kim Jong Un fed to the dogs. I have the image of waking up and 3am with Chris Williamson peering through the window at me. 33 minutes ago, MattP said: No idea about that new shit, but once I had to listen to some London "grime" and even I felt like going on a murder spree. You're bang on form tonight, Matt.
ozleicester Posted 10 April 2018 Posted 10 April 2018 It is simple enough, society (governments, media, corporations, people, parents) creates society If society supports cruelty to its people, then people will support cruelty to each other. parents, gangs, groups. Unless we set an example that demonstrates care and concern for all...we will have a society that only cares about what it is taught as important. Teach a kid that the latest Nikes are vital to being what society has decreed as being a decent human, then...if they cant afford them, they will find a way to get them. Instead of finding ways to move the homeless, society needs to find the root cause and address that, the same applies for gangs, refugees and anything else that people ignore while complaining about the breakdown of society.
nnfox Posted 10 April 2018 Posted 10 April 2018 11 hours ago, Buce said: Is new music genre driving the killings? https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/apr/09/uk-drill-music-london-wave-violent-crime Don't usually read The Guardian but that is a decent article. This music is definitely one of the major factors in the rise of violence. Yes, rival gangs threaten each other directly which leads to specific acts of violence, but the general tone of the lyrics shape the environment of the gang members to the point where it is considered normal to commit acts of terriible violence for no real reason.
ozleicester Posted 10 April 2018 Posted 10 April 2018 1 hour ago, nnfox said: Don't usually read The Guardian but that is a decent article. This music is definitely one of the major factors in the rise of violence. Yes, rival gangs threaten each other directly which leads to specific acts of violence, but the general tone of the lyrics shape the environment of the gang members to the point where it is considered normal to commit acts of terriible violence for no real reason. This guy and domestic violence (I felt the knife in my hand and she laughed no more!)
Finnegan Posted 10 April 2018 Posted 10 April 2018 13 hours ago, Buce said: Is new music genre driving the killings? https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/apr/09/uk-drill-music-london-wave-violent-crime No it ****ing isn't. Nor are computer games or violent movies or any other rubbish scapegoat of the moment trotted out by largely middle aged idiots who are completely out of touch with the pop culture of the time. Pop culture has always been a reflection of society not the other way around. Can a kid get an idea from a violent song or game? Yes. But that kid first had to be susceptible to that influence and prone to that violence in the first place and that's the problem. End of the day, all of society has a responsibility to engage with these kids, to make them feel like they belong as part of the wider world, make them feel like they've got a future and prospects and potential beyond gang membership. You grow up on a shit estate to parents from a shit estate being told you're always going to live on a shit estate, going to school on a shit estate learning crap that doesn't interest you behind metal detectors and panic buttons, you're probably going to come out of it and turn to your best bet of money and infamy - aspiring to be a gangster.
Bellend Sebastian Posted 10 April 2018 Posted 10 April 2018 53 minutes ago, Finnegan said: No it ****ing isn't. Nor are computer games or violent movies or any other rubbish scapegoat of the moment trotted out by largely middle aged idiots who are completely out of touch with the pop culture of the time. Pop culture has always been a reflection of society not the other way around. Can a kid get an idea from a violent song or game? Yes. But that kid first had to be susceptible to that influence and prone to that violence in the first place and that's the problem. End of the day, all of society has a responsibility to engage with these kids, to make them feel like they belong as part of the wider world, make them feel like they've got a future and prospects and potential beyond gang membership. You grow up on a shit estate to parents from a shit estate being told you're always going to live on a shit estate, going to school on a shit estate learning crap that doesn't interest you behind metal detectors and panic buttons, you're probably going to come out of it and turn to your best bet of money and infamy - aspiring to be a gangster. You say that, but I listened to just 10 seconds (all I could bear) of 'Drill' last night, and then I went out and stabbed a load of people. As if I didn't have enough enemies what with my commitment to murder everyone with a different postcode to me - and I don't mean the just the first bit, I mean the whole postcode. I've even wasted people who have the same postcode as me but use a different font when typing it or have different handwriting
Webbo Posted 10 April 2018 Posted 10 April 2018 1 hour ago, Bellend Sebastian said: You say that, but I listened to just 10 seconds (all I could bear) of 'Drill' last night, and then I went out and stabbed a load of people. As if I didn't have enough enemies what with my commitment to murder everyone with a different postcode to me - and I don't mean the just the first bit, I mean the whole postcode. I've even wasted people who have the same postcode as me but use a different font when typing it or have different handwriting I know what you mean. I was listening to some old Bronski Beat records the other week. Boy did I get a surprise when I woke up the next morning.
Countryfox Posted 10 April 2018 Posted 10 April 2018 14 minutes ago, Webbo said: I know what you mean. I was listening to some old Bronski Beat records the other week. Boy did I get a surprise when I woke up the next morning. You'd wet the bed ! ...
Alf Bentley Posted 10 April 2018 Posted 10 April 2018 21 minutes ago, Countryfox said: You'd wet the bed ! ... Nope. He woke up looking like Tintin and feeling a passionate desire to campaign for Neil Kinnock to be PM.
ozleicester Posted 10 April 2018 Posted 10 April 2018 36 minutes ago, Countryfox said: You'd wet the bed ! ... Bronski beat... not wet wet wet
Steven Posted 25 April 2018 Posted 25 April 2018 This is why Stop and Search is bogus. The brothers who were searched by the police for a fist bump https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/apr/25/the-brothers-who-were-searched-by-the-police-for-a-fist-bump
ozleicester Posted 25 April 2018 Posted 25 April 2018 5 minutes ago, Steven said: This is why Stop and Search is bogus. The brothers who were searched by the police for a fist bump https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/apr/25/the-brothers-who-were-searched-by-the-police-for-a-fist-bump Fvcking shameful! "if youve done nothing wrong, youve nothing to fear"
Innovindil Posted 25 April 2018 Posted 25 April 2018 46 minutes ago, Steven said: This is why Stop and Search is bogus. The brothers who were searched by the police for a fist bump https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/apr/25/the-brothers-who-were-searched-by-the-police-for-a-fist-bump This is why the "new" stop and search is bogus indeed. Police shouldn't have to justify a search beyond "we're getting illegal stuff off the streets". The trouble comes from it being aimed at a certain demographic. What they should do is take a leaf out of the argos warehouse search book. Carry around a random green/red light generator button, have the member of the public press it, if it's green, carry on, if it's red, you get a pat down. That way, you remove the "you're targeting us!" brigade.
Guest Col city fan Posted 7 May 2018 Posted 7 May 2018 4 more shootings in London over the weekend, one fatally. It’s getting worse, no doubt.
Wymsey Posted 7 May 2018 Author Posted 7 May 2018 What can the government do though? Doubt the answer is more police on the streets, as they could be targeted themselves.
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