Toddybad Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/what-us-lobbyists-want-donald-trump-to-get-from-the-uk-in-a-post-brexit-trade-deal_uk_5c5b26c6e4b00187b5579f64?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage&ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg00000008&ec_carp=3718441794783007409 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 5 minutes ago, Toddybad said: https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/what-us-lobbyists-want-donald-trump-to-get-from-the-uk-in-a-post-brexit-trade-deal_uk_5c5b26c6e4b00187b5579f64?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage&ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg00000008&ec_carp=3718441794783007409 No idea why people are getting worried about this. Still highly possible we'll be in a EU Customs Union anyway, if not Trump will be long gone by the time we finalise things like this and if our government agree to things that are deleterious to the public they'll get kicked out anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 33 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Fair dos. Similarly, I have fears that in future Brexit could lead to the rise of Far Right nationalism and racist violence. But if I said "I feel like Brexit is getting more like Far Right racist nationalism", I'd expect to be challenged - and rightly so. (And I assume most Brexit supporters - certainly including you - would loathe that outcome as much as me). I certainly wouldn't rule out the prospect of McCarthyite shenanigans in the Labour Party as some of the Hard Left had such instincts back in the 80s when I was active. Indeed, some of the same types (even the same people) could be playing a part in the Berger row as she's an MP in Liverpool, where the Militant Tendency were strong and that tradition still has roots. I'm just saying that the odd case like this doesn't constitute McCarthyism - and there's nothing necessarily wrong with the odd deselection, even deselection purely on the grounds of political beliefs and not incompetence or whatever. Wholesale deselection and takeover of the party by a particular faction would be quite different. I think that I'm right in saying that not a single Labour MP has yet been deselected on political grounds, despite Corbyn having been leader for several years now....and deselection is a decision taken by the local party branch, usually. If Berger isn't planning to leave the party and join a rival group, it would be helpful if she made that clear. I'd prefer to stick with the party system, for all its risks and flaws. At least you're dealing with a system comprising lots of different, potentially flawed individuals, who can compensate one another and weed out absolute rogues. If you place your trust in a single individual, what happens if they turn out to be an absolute rogue and use their free will to commit evil? I have great difficulty voting for anyone or anything as I am completely devoid of any sort of trust and not just in politicians. It was only a last minute decision to vote in the referendum more out of duty than anything and I plump for leave as I felt somewhat betrayed by past politicians and if I'd known what they and the EU had in mind back then I would never have voted to 'stay' in back in the Heath days. I'll probably not vote again now or I'll vote for an Independent candidate if they come anywhere near what I believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 6 minutes ago, MattP said: No idea why people are getting worried about this. Still highly possible we'll be in a EU Customs Union anyway, if not Trump will be long gone by the time we finalise things like this and if our government agree to things that are deleterious to the public they'll get kicked out anyway. I thought they just call a snap election (that they repeatedly promised not to) while the opposition's weak and unelectable to give them a small victory and the illusion of having a mandate to barrel on with the self-destruction (after bribing the DUP)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: I thought they just call a snap election (that they repeatedly promised not to) while the opposition's weak and unelectable to give them a small victory and the illusion of having a mandate to barrel on with the self-destruction (after bribing the DUP)? They called the snap election when 20-24 points ahead so if they think that's the way to go in future to achieve victory then good luck to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, davieG said: I have great difficulty voting for anyone or anything as I am completely devoid of any sort of trust and not just in politicians. It was only a last minute decision to vote in the referendum more out of duty than anything and I plump for leave as I felt somewhat betrayed by past politicians and if I'd known what they and the EU had in mind back then I would never have voted to 'stay' in back in the Heath days. I'll probably not vote again now or I'll vote for an Independent candidate if they come anywhere near what I believe in. In a way, it sounds as if you've retained more idealism than I have - and are therefore disillusioned by the betrayals of politicians. I suppose that I expect them to betray me half the time and for some of them to be incompetent or morally corrupt. Maybe my lower expectations allow me to be less disillusioned? If a government comes in and does a few things that I approve of - along with some things that I don't approve of - then I'm not too disillusioned at that.... The first referendum was under Wilson, though, wasn't it? Heath took us into the EEC without a referendum, then Wilson held one to confirm whether we'd stay in or not, I think. I vaguely remember hearing about the referendum but don't remember Heath first taking us in (1973) as I was just a little lad at school.....there, you'll feel old now, Davie! Edited 8 February 2019 by Alf Bentley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: In a way, it sounds as if you've retained more idealism than I have - and are therefore disillusioned by the betrayals of politicians. I suppose that I expect them to betray me half the time and for some of them to be incompetent or morally corrupt. Maybe my lower expectations allow me to be less disillusioned? If a government comes in and does a few things that I approve of - along with some things that I don't approve of - then I'm not too disillusioned at that.... The first referendum was under Wilson, though, wasn't it? Heath took us into the EEC without a referendum, then Wilson held one to confirm whether we'd stay in or not, I think. I vaguely remember hearing about the referendum but don't remember Heath first taking us in (1973) as I was just a little lad at school.....there, you'll feel old now, Davie! Ha, I don't need comments like this to feel old and you're correct it was Wilson that's another nail in my coffin I wonder what he would have done if the vote had been leave as I guess we knew even less about it back then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddybad Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 27 minutes ago, MattP said: No idea why people are getting worried about this. Still highly possible we'll be in a EU Customs Union anyway, if not Trump will be long gone by the time we finalise things like this and if our government agree to things that are deleterious to the public they'll get kicked out anyway. What do you think a trade deal with and the US will mean even without trump? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddybad Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 4 minutes ago, davieG said: Ha, I don't need comments like this to feel old and you're correct it was Wilson that's another nail in my coffin I wonder what he would have done if the vote had been leave as I guess we knew even less about it back then. The thing that most interests me is that we were in EFTA before we joined the EEC. We set EFTA up in 1960. That's now called the Norway option. So when JRM asks what did we do before 1973, the answer is we were in EFTA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 52 minutes ago, Toddybad said: What do you think a trade deal with and the US will mean even without trump? I have no idea I'm not a trade negotiator. If we can't get beneficial deals don't sign them anyway, I'm not as keen on globalisation as I once was and I am as fearful as I was optimistic about "opening up our markets" to America and the Far East. It's bad enough being forced to accept tariffs imposed by Brussels impinging on trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 Motions of no confidence in Labour MP Luciana Berger have been withdrawn by her local party after a bitter row. Activists in Liverpool Wavertree said Ms Berger - a critic of Labour's handling of anti-Semitism - had been undermining Jeremy Corbyn. Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell sparked a backlash from supporters of the MP by suggesting she should have pledged loyalty to Labour. He said Ms Berger had been linked to an alleged Labour "breakaway" party. A source close to the Labour leadership said pulling the confidence vote was the right decision. But another Labour MP in Liverpool, Louise Ellman, called it "an absolutely disgraceful episode" and said it was "very clear the attacks" on Ms Berger were down to anti-Semitism. In a statement after the motions were first put forward, Ms Berger said she would be not be "distracted from fighting for the interests of my constituents". Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson has written to the party's general secretary Jennie Formby, calling for the Liverpool Wavertree Constituency Labour Party (CLP) to be suspended. He wrote: "It is clear to me that Luciana Berger is being bullied. This behaviour by her local party is intolerable." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddybad Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MattP said: I have no idea I'm not a trade negotiator. If we can't get beneficial deals don't sign them anyway, I'm not as keen on globalisation as I once was and I am as fearful as I was optimistic about "opening up our markets" to America and the Far East. It's bad enough being forced to accept tariffs imposed by Brussels impinging on trade. Unfortunately you voted for this so you can't back out now. You were all for this stuff a year ago. You'll have to accept the blame along with every other leaver if this goes to ****. Edited 8 February 2019 by Toddybad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Toddybad said: Unfortunately you voted for this so you can't back out now. You were all for this stuff a year ago. You'll have to accept the blame along with every other leaver if this goes to ****. Nobody has to accept anything pal, you voted to put a weak, pro brexit opposition in a strong position. You are as much culpable as the rest of us. But I doubt you accept that. Edited 8 February 2019 by Strokes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddybad Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Strokes said: Nobody has to accept anything pal, you voted to put a weak, pro brexit opposition, in a strong position. You are as much culpable as the rest of us. But I doubt you accept that. If they stick to their current line, and their manifesto tbf, then I did vote for a soft brexit party, yes. At the time it seemed the right thing, now I'm really on the fence about whether I'd vote then or lib dem tomorrow (if after brexit I'd end up sticking). I accept that. Anybody that voted brexit and doesn't believe in what brexit we get has to equally own that. But I suspect you're trying to claim that it's a lack of belief in the unicorm within government which means it keeps getting away. In which case I won't even bother responding its so laughable. Edited 8 February 2019 by Toddybad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 6 minutes ago, Toddybad said: If they stick to their current line, and their manifesto tbf, then I did vote for a soft brexit party, yes. At the time it seemed the right thing, now I'm really on the fence about whether I'd vote then or lib dem tomorrow (if after brexit I'd end up sticking). I accept that. Anybody that voted brexit and doesn't believe in what brexit we get has to equally own that. It was never soft brexit. Unless the definition has changed again. 6 minutes ago, Toddybad said: But I suspect you're trying to claim that it's a lack of belief in the unicorm within government which means it keeps getting away. In which case I won't even bother responding its so laughable. I’ve no idea what you’re talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddybad Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 7 minutes ago, Strokes said: It was never soft brexit. Unless the definition has changed again. I’ve no idea what you’re talking about? Staying in the customs union with single market access isn't soft brexit? OK then.... This MP is a prize idiot https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/christopher-chope-blocks-fgm-prevention-bill-tory-mp-conservative-a8770026.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 Just now, Toddybad said: Staying in the customs union with single market access isn't soft brexit? OK then.... This MP is a prize idiot https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/christopher-chope-blocks-fgm-prevention-bill-tory-mp-conservative-a8770026.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true We all have single market access, we can have it in a no deal scenario. It’s a nonsense statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddybad Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 3 minutes ago, Strokes said: We all have single market access, we can have it in a no deal scenario. It’s a nonsense statement. Labour were clearly taking about tariff free single market access. That is not available under no deal. Likewise tariff free access to the other 100 countries we currently have deals with. You want no deal. That's your right. My opinion about your opinion is best left in my head. I really don't want to be banned again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 Just now, Toddybad said: Labour were clearly taking about tariff free single market access. That is not available under no deal. Likewise tariff free access to the other 100 countries we currently have deals with. You want no deal. That's your right. My opinion about your opinion is best left in my head. I really don't want to be banned again. I don’t think they were clearly talking about anything, nor have been since. Quite deliberately I might add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddybad Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 Think what you want. You want a no deal. Should that occur, I'll be expecting you to be able to explain it away afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 41 minutes ago, Toddybad said: Unfortunately you voted for this so you can't back out now. You were all for this stuff a year ago. You'll have to accept the blame along with every other leaver if this goes to ****. This is the problem. We're leaving the EU, end of. There's little point in blaming people, you may as well just emigrate now and leave the rest of us to make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddybad Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 2 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said: This is the problem. We're leaving the EU, end of. There's little point in blaming people, you may as well just emigrate now and leave the rest of us to make it work. I wish I could. These sorts of responses look an awful lot like an abdication of responsibility but I'll leave that to people's consciences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 3 hours ago, MattP said: No idea why people are getting worried about this. Still highly possible we'll be in a EU Customs Union anyway, if not Trump will be long gone by the time we finalise things like this and if our government agree to things that are deleterious to the public they'll get kicked out anyway. Rep point for using the word deleterious on a football forum ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 4 minutes ago, Toddybad said: I wish I could. These sorts of responses look an awful lot like an abdication of responsibility but I'll leave that to people's consciences. Clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2019 Share Posted 8 February 2019 8 minutes ago, Toddybad said: Think what you want. You want a no deal. Should that occur, I'll be expecting you to be able to explain it away afterwards. Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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