Brexit!

[BlueSi13]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

You're right, I am - because in my own opinion that one issue renders most others moot. What's the point in sovereignty when there are no more nations, merely closed city-states? What's the point in trade negotiations when it's just a few armoured caravans going between them? (Yes, that's a little Mad Max, I know, but you get the idea.)

 

You might be right in that the EU might morph into this hyperstate that only cares about the elites within the upper echelons of it and nothing for those working on the fringes of it. Equally, you might be wrong. It's a chance either way and no one can really be certain.

 

What is more certain (not a dead certainty, merely a good chance) is that the current governmental structure seems incapable of handling climate change issues in a satisfactory enough manner in order to shake off pretty damn awful consequences later on. Now, I am not suggesting that the only possible solution to that is a massive monolithic superstate, but what I am suggesting is that there needs to be at least some joined-up thinking not only EU-wide but world-wide on this matter and an entity that already covers most of the nations of Europe seems a reasonably place for that. If other solutions are on the table, fine, I'd be happy to hear them - frankly I don't care about the make-up of the solution short of some kind of nightmarish 1984-style dystopia, just as long as it is effective, because what climate change can (and may well) do to civilisation is categorically worse than every single nightmare governmental scenario short of that.

 

Given the chance nature can make the worst excesses of what we humans do to each other - Holocaust, Holodomor, whatever - look very tame indeed.

Your concern for the environment and future generations is admirable and I am fully on board with the thinking that we all need to do much more in considering our impact on the natural world.  

 

However I do not consider this a good reason to completely say goodbye to our ancient sovereignty and hand it over to a union transfixed on control, expansion and now "Empire".  Especially as the UK is only responsible for 1.2% of global greenhouse gas emissions.

[Leicester_Loyal]

16 hours ago, Foxhateram said:

Go on. Please do enlighten me oh holy one.

 

2 hours ago, Saxondale said:

But you're unable to offer a single retort in support of your viewpoint?

'Unelected PM' Yet he was elected? He's also offered a General Election and nobody is taking him up on his offer

 

Comparing whoever the original OP was talking about to Hitler is quite frankly disgraceful and ridiculous at the same time.

 

Calling for petitions to not be ignored, while ignoring the legitimate vote that the country has had. Then asking for Brexit to be stopped, hereby going against the legitimate vote which has taken place.

 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Your concern for the environment and future generations is admirable and I am fully on board with the thinking that we all need to do much more in considering our impact on the natural world.  

 

However I do not consider this a good reason to completely say goodbye to our ancient sovereignty and hand it over to a union transfixed on control, expansion and now "Empire".  Especially as the UK is only responsible for 1.2% of global greenhouse gas emissions.

Fair enough - like I said, I'm all ears for other solutions that satisfy the whims of as many people as possible, but the clock is ticking and the Earth isn't going to care which particular nation did the damage and which didn't; you might say it is very...democratic.

[LiberalFox]

Verhofstadt is merely making the point that there are major economic, social, political and military entities that are much larger than any individual European nation and that we should work together to maintain power and influence on the world stage. It's not his intention to mirror those entities that he refers to as "Empires". 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, BlueSi13 said:

Boris is doing what the country asked him to do and that's to leave the European Union, deal or no deal.  

 

Talking about saying things with straight faces, I don't think my comment was any different to remainers arguing that parliaments continual blocking and sabotaging of Brexit has all been about "defending democracy"

 

As for the video, tongue very much in cheek, but can tell you liked it 

Except it really isn't if you look at the responses to it below the video. People believe it's serious - and that makes it seriously misleading. If you're not horrified by that, then you should at the very least be embarrassed.

 

As for your comment, it was possibly the most illogical sentence I've ever seen for the reasons I mentioned. And if you think MP's properly scrutinising executive decisions amounts to sabotage then I've some very bad news for you about this Parliamentary Sovereignty we've all been so looking forward to regaining....

Edited 16 September 2019 by Voll Blau

[FerrisBueller]

16 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

 

'Unelected PM' Yet he was elected? He's also offered a General Election and nobody is taking him up on his offer

 

Comparing whoever the original OP was talking about to Hitler is quite frankly disgraceful and ridiculous at the same time.

 

Calling for petitions to not be ignored, while ignoring the legitimate vote that the country has had. Then asking for Brexit to be stopped, hereby going against the legitimate vote which has taken place.

 

But that's what so many people have a problem with, it wasn't a legitimate vote. One side broke the law.

[Facecloth]

1 hour ago, FerrisBueller said:

But that's what so many people have a problem with, it wasn't a legitimate vote. One side broke the law.

Thing is they did break electoral law, but as the referendum wasn't legal binding, they can't be charged with it and it can't be used to overturn the result. As the referendum wasn't legally binding we don't actually have to implement the result, but as they promised they would (because governments never break promises 🙄) and they know there would be uproar if they didn't, they feel they have to. 

 

Whoever put these rules in place for this election was having a laugh. Basically knowing the result would have be implement even though it legally didn't have to be, they basically allowed a free reign to break electoral law and it have no effect on the result. 

[Foxhateram]

3 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

 

'Unelected PM' Yet he was elected? He's also offered a General Election and nobody is taking him up on his offer

 

Comparing whoever the original OP was talking about to Hitler is quite frankly disgraceful and ridiculous at the same time.

 

Calling for petitions to not be ignored, while ignoring the legitimate vote that the country has had. Then asking for Brexit to be stopped, hereby going against the legitimate vote which has taken place.

 

🤣 Look up the meaning of a referendum. You don't understand what it is. It's not a vote or a form of decisive agenda. It's a gathering of public opinion, which parliament has no obligation to use as a decisive tool. If it had been an elective vote, the split wouldn't be sufficient to be an outright win anyway.

 

Don't see the public saying no to an election. In fact as soon as it was mentioned that an election might happen, a record number of people registered to vote in one day. I think that suggests we do want an election.

 

Boris has been elected by MPs not the public, MPs who make up less than 1 percent of the UK population.

 

I didn't compare him to Hitler, I compared the campaign to Hitler's rise to power. Which mps and even former prime ministers are making the same reference. 

 

He has used twisted propoganda, an us against them campaign and even been proven to use completely false 'facts' to rise to power. He's even quoted as saying BREXIT would be terrible for the country in interviews prior to the campaign.  

 

BREXIT will be terrible for this country. Especially no deal. We stand to gain absolutely nothing, but we definitely have a lot to lose in terms of trade, resources, freedom of movement, cheap import tax, etc it goes on.

 

Recession, shortages and power outputs await us under no deal. We'll all be cheering on the 2016 referendum then! But 'the people' voted will be words scrawn all over British history. The generation that forgot the past.

Edited 16 September 2019 by Foxhateram

[simFox]

What was the president of Luxembourg thinking. It's stunts like that which plays right into brexiteers hands. What a thoroughly misjudged situation he put our PM in. Disgusting.

Edited 16 September 2019 by simFox

[Legend_in_blue]

Just watched the video back in Luxembourg.  

 

Boris is an absolute embarrassment.  Still being pushed on how he thinks he's going to get around the law when we surpass the Oct 17th deadline which will surely come and go.  No response.  

 

The EU keeps telling us they'll only make changes on what comes after the withdrawal agreement, that parliament is totally against, and they'll consider proposals from us, which are still not forthcoming.  Yet Boris bangs on about doing his deal, all he speaks is a load of hot air.

 

When will people see past his clap trap?  If he's not prepared to budge when he returns post Oct 17th, he'll have to go.

[Leicester_Loyal]

54 minutes ago, Foxhateram said:

🤣 Look up the meaning of a referendum. You don't understand what it is. It's not a vote or a form of decisive agenda. It's a gathering of public opinion, which parliament has no obligation to use as a decisive tool. If it had been an elective vote, the split wouldn't be sufficient to be an outright win anyway.

 

Don't see the public saying no to an election. In fact as soon as it was mentioned that an election might happen, a record number of people registered to vote in one day. I think that suggests we do want an election.

 

Boris has been elected by MPs not the public, MPs who make up less than 1 percent of the UK population.

 

I didn't compare him to Hitler, I compared the campaign to Hitler's rise to power. Which mps and even former prime ministers are making the same reference. 

 

He has used twisted propoganda, an us against them campaign and even been proven to use completely false 'facts' to rise to power. He's even quoted as saying BREXIT would be terrible for the country in interviews prior to the campaign.  

 

BREXIT will be terrible for this country. Especially no deal. We stand to gain absolutely nothing, but we definitely have a lot to lose in terms of trade, resources, freedom of movement, cheap import tax, etc it goes on.

 

Recession, shortages and power outputs await us under no deal. We'll all be cheering on the 2016 referendum then! But 'the people' voted will be words scrawn all over British history. The generation that forgot the past.

Obviously we were all told it would only be advisory before we voted? Every single MP said the referendum would be respected, 'once in a lifetime vote'.

 

Boris has been elected through the proper process.

It amazes me that people suddenly go against how the country and parliament works when something happens that they don't want. I didn't want Brown replacing Blair, but that's life and I accepted it

 

Power outputs I need not say anymore, brilliant.

Edited 16 September 2019 by Leicester_Loyal

[Legend_in_blue]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49720910/boris-johnson-insists-uk-will-leave-eu-on-31-october

 

Starts to turn awkward for the him at around the 6:15 mark.  He's going to uphold the law but see us out on Oct 31st.  He just will not listen. 

 

How?  How?  How?  No response.

[Leicester_Loyal]

9 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49720910/boris-johnson-insists-uk-will-leave-eu-on-31-october

 

Starts to turn awkward for the him at around the 6:15 mark.  He's going to uphold the law but see us out on Oct 31st.  He just will not listen. 

 

How?  How?  How?  No response.

If he has something up his sleeve (and I'm not sure he does), then do you honestly expect him to blab it out and risk MPs finding a way to stop it?

[Legend_in_blue]

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

If he has something up his sleeve (and I'm not sure he does), then do you honestly expect him to blab it out and risk MPs finding a way to stop it?

You're giving him too much credit there.  He's clueless.  He quotes 250 million, then he quotes 350 million.  MPs have done what they needed to do.  Visiting the EU now should mean he has something in place to deal with the fact that he faces a dead end post Oct 17th, but he continues churning out the same old rhetoric, and he has nothing.  

[Leicester_Loyal]

Just now, Legend_in_blue said:

You're giving him too much credit there.  He's clueless.  He quotes 250 million, then he quotes 350 million.  MPs have done what they needed to do.  Visiting the EU now should mean he has something in place to deal with the fact that he faces a dead end post Oct 17th, but he continues churning out the same old rhetoric, and he has nothing.  

We'll see. If he does have something up his sleeve he obviously won't blurt it out though, that's pretty much a given.

[Foxhateram]

45 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Obviously we were all told it would only be advisory before we voted? Every single MP said the referendum would be respected, 'once in a lifetime vote'.

 

Boris has been elected through the proper process.

It amazes me that people suddenly go against how the country and parliament works when something happens that they don't want. I didn't want Brown replacing Blair, but that's life and I accepted it

 

Power outputs I need not say anymore, brilliant.

But why did you accept something so shockingly poor. Boris is by far worse than Brown. 

 

I have no respect for the way someone can become in power via a path that involves no public input. Never have done, never will. Tories swindled there way in using the DUP in the first place, but let's not get on that diabolical affair. 

 

Yes there have been reports by energy companies who believe a no deal BREXIT could lead to power outages. Not sure why that requires so many radiculous emojis?

 

Clearly you want a deep recession and food shortages because it'll make you feel like the good old days. 

[Izzy]

 

[BlueSi13]

5 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Except it really isn't if you look at the responses to it below the video. People believe it's serious - and that makes it seriously misleading. If you're not horrified by that, then you should at the very least be embarrassed.

 

As for your comment, it was possibly the most illogical sentence I've ever seen for the reasons I mentioned. And if you think MP's properly scrutinising executive decisions amounts to sabotage then I've some very bad news for you about this Parliamentary Sovereignty we've all been so looking forward to regaining....

When you say people, you mean you and Swan Lesta?  Embarrassed!?  FFS 

 

How is trying to force the PM to ask for extension, give complete control over to the EU to dictate terms and duration and then force the PM to accept whatever the EU offers as "properly scrutinising executive decisions"?  Illogical indeed.  Delusional certainly.

[BlueSi13]

5 hours ago, FerrisBueller said:

But that's what so many people have a problem with, it wasn't a legitimate vote. One side broke the law.

They sure did:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/david-cameron/news/91572/official-eu-remain-campaign

[BlueSi13]

4 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Thing is they did break electoral law, but as the referendum wasn't legal binding, they can't be charged with it and it can't be used to overturn the result. As the referendum wasn't legally binding we don't actually have to implement the result, but as they promised they would (because governments never break promises 🙄) and they know there would be uproar if they didn't, they feel they have to. 

 

Whoever put these rules in place for this election was having a laugh. Basically knowing the result would have be implement even though it legally didn't have to be, they basically allowed a free reign to break electoral law and it have no effect on the result. 

 

This became legally binding on the 29th of March 2017 when MP's voted to invoke Article 50.

 

When you say we don't actually have to implement the result as it was just "advisory" I wonder what you'd have been arguing if remain had won.  In fact imagine remain had won but we had a 75% majority of MP's who supported Brexit (as opposed to the 75% who supported remain now) and decided to take us out regardless.  I assume you wouldn't have any complaints about that?

[BlueSi13]

1 hour ago, Legend_in_blue said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49720910/boris-johnson-insists-uk-will-leave-eu-on-31-october

 

Starts to turn awkward for the him at around the 6:15 mark.  He's going to uphold the law but see us out on Oct 31st.  He just will not listen. 

 

How?  How?  How?  No response.

Been reported widely across the media already as to why:

Boris Johnson 'has secret plan' to keep Brexit on track... but only three others in Downing Street know what it is

• Officials have found a loophole in the law passed by rebel MPs to block No Deal
• The information is so sensitive that even members of Mr Johnson’s inner circle have not been briefed on it
• The identities of the advisers are unknown, but may include Dominic Cummings

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7466857/Boris-Johnson-secret-plan-Brexit-track.html

[BlueSi13]

42 minutes ago, Foxhateram said:

But why did you accept something so shockingly poor. Boris is by far worse than Brown. 

 

I have no respect for the way someone can become in power via a path that involves no public input. Never have done, never will. Tories swindled there way in using the DUP in the first place, but let's not get on that diabolical affair. 

 

Yes there have been reports by energy companies who believe a no deal BREXIT could lead to power outages. Not sure why that requires so many radiculous emojis?

 

Clearly you want a deep recession and food shortages because it'll make you feel like the good old days. 

Not going to happen, even the worst case scenarios don't predict that, rather a slight drop in GDP GROWTH:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1168964684764131328.html

 

The UK has nothing to fear from a No Deal Brexit, sure a deal would be preferable.  But it will be FAR from the war, famine and pestilence some have been screaming from the rooftops.

 

Small price to pay for us to stay out of Guy Verhofstadt's dream of empire IMO.

[Leicester_Loyal]

6 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Been reported widely across the media already as to why:

Boris Johnson 'has secret plan' to keep Brexit on track... but only three others in Downing Street know what it is

• Officials have found a loophole in the law passed by rebel MPs to block No Deal
• The information is so sensitive that even members of Mr Johnson’s inner circle have not been briefed on it
• The identities of the advisers are unknown, but may include Dominic Cummings

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7466857/Boris-Johnson-secret-plan-Brexit-track.html

Someone who has managed to become the UK Prime Minister is obviously thick as ****, keep up mate

Edited 16 September 2019 by Leicester_Loyal

[Facecloth]

14 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

 

This became legally binding on the 29th of March 2017 when MP's voted to invoke Article 50.

 

When you say we don't actually have to implement the result as it was just "advisory" I wonder what you'd have been arguing if remain had won.  In fact imagine remain had won but we had a 75% majority of MP's who supported Brexit (as opposed to the 75% who supported remain now) and decided to take us out regardless.  I assume you wouldn't have any complaints about that?

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

[Strokes]

47 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

I think this is what he is getting at.

 

https://fullfact.org/law/article-50-bill/

 

Its quite interesting at the end of that fullfact article @BlueSi13, which I didn’t realise or consider. Although it was bestowed on the PM to trigger article 50, there is no law that says we have to leave.

I wonder if that is deliberate 🤔

Edited 16 September 2019 by Strokes