Brexit!

[HighPeakFox]

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

People are determined to make things like Brexit, Trump etc look as though some conspiracy is the cause behind 17 million people’s vote. It’s really very simple:

 

1. People don’t like being told what to do. (A major attribute of liberals today)

2. People don’t feel the government listens.

 

Remainers May have found lots of ways to derail Brexit, but it’s going to happen and quiet majority are getting angrier. 

 

Have you heard of Steve Bannon? Aaron Banks? The Paradise Papers? Putin? Massively rich, tax-avoiding owners of our (largely) unregulated and right-wing press? Are you aware that the Referendum is known - KNOWN - to have been illegally procured? 

 

No? As you were, then.

[Dames]

6 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I think you are completely deluded if you think any British government would remove those rights.  The UK will need to compete more for talent not less.  This is complete nonsense. There would be a general strike seriously.  I would strike!

I actually think you’d have to be completely deluded to trust a Conservative government not to strip away these rights. As a poster pointed out, its an EU law that brought these rights in the first place. The Government if they so chose could rewrite the law when we leave to suit them and I have almost no doubt in my mind that these benefits will be changed to be at the employers discretion. Which basically means paid holiday for Board members but nobody else.  

 

I could be wrong but many Conservatives have been outspoken critics of these laws for a long time and Brexit will give them free reign to ‘cut the red tape’ as they keep banging on about. 

 

 

[Benguin]

14 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Have you heard of Steve Bannon? Aaron Banks? The Paradise Papers? Putin? Massively rich, tax-avoiding owners of our (largely) unregulated and right-wing press? Are you aware that the Referendum is known - KNOWN - to have been illegally procured? 

 

No? As you were, then.

I don’t remember anyone telling me to vote Leave. I was 99% off my own volition that I wanted to vote leave and it was someone saying people who vote leave are racists that tipped it to a 100%. Don’t remember Putin or some right wing extremist offering me a bj. 

[Captain...]

6 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I don’t remember anyone telling me to vote Leave. I was 99% off my own volition that I wanted to vote leave and it was someone saying people who vote leave are racists that tipped it to a 100%. Don’t remember Putin or some right wing extremist offering me a bj. 

You've made your own decision but all of our decisions are based on our experience a and influences. The papers you read the tv shows you watch the people you follow on social media, your family, your friends, that taxi driver who waxes lyrical about immigrants. We're all influenced, leaver/remainer, Tory/Labour, and it is naive to think otherwise. What is concerning is that there seem to be a handful of very influential people with a vested interest in getting a no deal Brexit and will profit massively from it at the expense of normal people.

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

I don’t remember anyone telling me to vote Leave. I was 99% off my own volition that I wanted to vote leave and it was someone saying people who vote leave are racists that tipped it to a 100%. Don’t remember Putin or some right wing extremist offering me a bj. 

Nicely swerved. Nope, nobody did. However, the amount of deeply disturbing stuff that went on to manipulate the vote was, and should be, troubling, whichever way one voted. You're just one guy, but people parrot the same old rubbish & tropes that get repeated and repeated and repeated. You might well have good reason to have voted Leave, but I am sure many millions did so for less worthy reasons.

 

You might think you're immune to malign influence, but none of us are. We're subject to it the whole time. I'm prepared to be honest and have to check my prejudices every day, because I hear stuff every day that plays on fears and the basest instincts. I avoid the papers and largely avoid the BBC now - it's amazing what fear does to people, and one can see by what ISN'T reported the unconscious biases at work. That's not conspiracy - it's just human nature in the face of pressure. I used to work for someone who practised these dark arts - it's much the same, just on a terrifyingly worldwide basis now.

 

So please don't think I'm getting at you - I'm not. I blame nobody for voting Leave. I blame the huge machine behind getting the result over the line, and the cover-up that has followed.

Edited 12 September 2019 by HighPeakFox

[twoleftfeet]

1 hour ago, Dames said:

I actually think you’d have to be completely deluded to trust a Conservative government not to strip away these rights. As a poster pointed out, its an EU law that brought these rights in the first place. The Government if they so chose could rewrite the law when we leave to suit them and I have almost no doubt in my mind that these benefits will be changed to be at the employers discretion. Which basically means paid holiday for Board members but nobody else.  

 

I could be wrong but many Conservatives have been outspoken critics of these laws for a long time and Brexit will give them free reign to ‘cut the red tape’ as they keep banging on about. 

 

 

Labour advocated in their last two terms in office that rule should be devolved to the regions yet here they are arguing for the continuation and centralised rule. If less centralised govt was and is the correct thing for Scotland and yo a lesser extent Wales and Northern Island then surely they should be foght to get greater law making powers for the regions of the EU starting with the UK and taking control away from the European Parliment. Perhaps arguing to roll back the EU to just a free trade area.

[Heathrow fox]

5 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

Paid annual leave only became law in 1995 because of the European Working Time Directive.

Wouldn’t Tony Blair have followed suit and bought in similar legislation?Backed by his huge majority he could’ve gone one step further and increased it to 28 days which eventually happened anyway.

[twoleftfeet]

strange but a quick google suggests that rights to paid holiday started in 1938 or 35 years before we joined the EU most workers rights havent been given to us by parliment but were fought for by trade unions and then extended by acts of parliment to cover workers in all areas.

 

[HappyHamza]

2 hours ago, twoleftfeet said:

strange but a quick google suggests that rights to paid holiday started in 1938 or 35 years before we joined the EU most workers rights havent been given to us by parliment but were fought for by trade unions and then extended by acts of parliment to cover workers in all areas.

 

 The danger with doing a quick Google is that you might not read deeply enough into the subject matter. 

 

The Holidays with Pay Act 1938 discussed how the Secretary of State could provide officers to help administer schemes where employers voluntarily agreed to provide paid holiday entitlement through discussion with trade unions.  It didn't provide a legal right to paid holiday. 

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, Captain... said:

You've made your own decision but all of our decisions are based on our experience a and influences. The papers you read the tv shows you watch the people you follow on social media, your family, your friends, that taxi driver who waxes lyrical about immigrants. We're all influenced, leaver/remainer, Tory/Labour, and it is naive to think otherwise. What is concerning is that there seem to be a handful of very influential people with a vested interest in getting a no deal Brexit and will profit massively from it at the expense of normal people.

 

6 hours ago, HighPeakFox said:

Nicely swerved. Nope, nobody did. However, the amount of deeply disturbing stuff that went on to manipulate the vote was, and should be, troubling, whichever way one voted. You're just one guy, but people parrot the same old rubbish & tropes that get repeated and repeated and repeated. You might well have good reason to have voted Leave, but I am sure many millions did so for less worthy reasons.

 

You might think you're immune to malign influence, but none of us are. We're subject to it the whole time. I'm prepared to be honest and have to check my prejudices every day, because I hear stuff every day that plays on fears and the basest instincts. I avoid the papers and largely avoid the BBC now - it's amazing what fear does to people, and one can see by what ISN'T reported the unconscious biases at work. That's not conspiracy - it's just human nature in the face of pressure. I used to work for someone who practised these dark arts - it's much the same, just on a terrifyingly worldwide basis now.

 

So please don't think I'm getting at you - I'm not. I blame nobody for voting Leave. I blame the huge machine behind getting the result over the line, and the cover-up that has followed.

The idea that the human individual is sovereign and can always act freely and without influence from other people in terms of choices made is the greatest con going, but people still like to believe it because if they didn't they would really despair.

Edited 13 September 2019 by leicsmac

[twoleftfeet]

2 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

 The danger with doing a quick Google is that you might not read deeply enough into the subject matter. 

 

The Holidays with Pay Act 1938 discussed how the Secretary of State could provide officers to help administer schemes where employers voluntarily agreed to provide paid holiday entitlement through discussion with trade unions.  It didn't provide a legal right to paid holiday. 

Apart from the ONE WEEKS PAID HOLIDAY for all workers who's wagss were set by trade union boards, so it did provide the legal right for some workers to paid holiday.  www.unionhistory.info

Edited 13 September 2019 by twoleftfeet
The full link wasnt working

[Benguin]

8 hours ago, Captain... said:

You've made your own decision but all of our decisions are based on our experience a and influences. The papers you read the tv shows you watch the people you follow on social media, your family, your friends, that taxi driver who waxes lyrical about immigrants. We're all influenced, leaver/remainer, Tory/Labour, and it is naive to think otherwise. What is concerning is that there seem to be a handful of very influential people with a vested interest in getting a no deal Brexit and will profit massively from it at the expense of normal people.

Except for remainers right? They’re more grown up and intellectual. 

 

Actually I was at university at the time so the major sphere of influence was from university lecturers telling us how f£&@ed we’ll be if we leave. 

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Except for remainers right? They’re more grown up and intellectual. 

 

Actually I was at university at the time so the major sphere of influence was from university lecturers telling us how f£&@ed we’ll be if we leave. 

...And I'm guessing at least part of the reason you went for leave was because you didn't like the idea of them telling you what to do?

 

Influence cuts both ways, but people cannot deny it exists nor its efficacy.

[Charl91]

19 minutes ago, Benguin said:

 

Actually I was at university at the time so the major sphere of influence was from university lecturers telling us how f£&@ed we’ll be if we leave. 

 

Maybe you should have listened in lectures then  

 

[Voll Blau]

11 hours ago, Benguin said:

I don’t remember anyone telling me to vote Leave. I was 99% off my own volition that I wanted to vote leave and it was someone saying people who vote leave are racists that tipped it to a 100%. Don’t remember Putin or some right wing extremist offering me a bj. 

Must admit I find it slightly troubling that one clearly unrepresentative comment could have such influence over an academic like yourself...

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

Except for remainers right? They’re more grown up and intellectual. 

 

Actually I was at university at the time so the major sphere of influence was from university lecturers telling us how f£&@ed we’ll be if we leave. 

I clearly said leaver/remainer. We are all influenced by others. What is concerning is the amount of influential people on the leave side that stand to make a lot of money out of this mess. There are clearly those with a vested interest on the remain side but that seems to be those that don't want to see everything they've worked hard for go to shit because of a bunch of unscrupulous fecks. One thing I'll say about Farage is his does seem to be an idealistic campaign (if largely egotistical) rather than one motivated by greed and opportunistic exploitation.

[Jon the Hat]

11 hours ago, Dames said:

I actually think you’d have to be completely deluded to trust a Conservative government not to strip away these rights. As a poster pointed out, its an EU law that brought these rights in the first place. The Government if they so chose could rewrite the law when we leave to suit them and I have almost no doubt in my mind that these benefits will be changed to be at the employers discretion. Which basically means paid holiday for Board members but nobody else.  

 

I could be wrong but many Conservatives have been outspoken critics of these laws for a long time and Brexit will give them free reign to ‘cut the red tape’ as they keep banging on about. 

 

 

You really couldn't be more wrong.  Even if you are right and this law was revoked, companies compete for talent;  cutting holiday pay would be a ridiculous decision, which is why most companies if not all had it before the EU law.  Your idea that we would suddenly go back to Victorian times is seriously paranoid.  The irony here is most board members are non-execs so they don;t get paid holidays now.  You could probably argue that those on the lowest pay in casual work might be at risk of not getting holiday pay, but even that is seriously unlikely.

[Jon the Hat]

5 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

 The danger with doing a quick Google is that you might not read deeply enough into the subject matter. 

 

The Holidays with Pay Act 1938 discussed how the Secretary of State could provide officers to help administer schemes where employers voluntarily agreed to provide paid holiday entitlement through discussion with trade unions.  It didn't provide a legal right to paid holiday. 

Tell me what % of people did not have paid holiday before 1995?  I worked part time at Tesco on minimum wage and I had paid holiday in 1993.

[Babylon]

11 hours ago, Benguin said:

I don’t remember anyone telling me to vote Leave. I was 99% off my own volition that I wanted to vote leave and it was someone saying people who vote leave are racists that tipped it to a 100%. Don’t remember Putin or some right wing extremist offering me a bj. 

And what made you want to vote leave, what is it that you don't like exactly?

 

The amount of times I've seen blatant lies on the front page of the Sun my mum gets, and then a tiny retraction months later hidden away that is ignored. And I have to listen to me 71 year old mum telling me the foreigners are all swarming over here, taking the benefits and raping our women. Her news comes from The Sun, I don't blame her for forming her opinions from it, the people to blame are those directly pointing their papers in those directions... usually for money or power. Putin might not have personally told you what to do. But you, me and everyone else is being conditioned by what we consume. 

 

I don't have a dog in this fight particularly. I'm a bit left here, a bit right there and I hate politics with a passion. Especially the modern partisan politics where by you've picked a party and no matter what they say or they do, they are right and everyone else is wrong. 

[Finnaldo]

4 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I don't have a dog in this fight particularly. I'm a bit left here, a bit right there and I hate politics with a passion. Especially the modern partisan politics where by you've picked a party and no matter what they say or they do, they are right and everyone else is wrong. 

 

The one thing the entire Brexit saga has been good for in my eyes has been the massive failures in our political system. It's taken up to now for people to understand roughly how Parliament operates and with the daily mishaps and battles it's drawn a lot pf eyes to Parliament and as they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant. 

 

Of course there's likely still an apathetic majority, but regardless of what happens I'm hoping there's enough non-partisan anger to steer a proper reform of our democracy.

[Babylon]

15 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

Of course there's likely still an apathetic majority, but regardless of what happens I'm hoping there's enough non-partisan anger to steer a proper reform of our democracy.

You'd hope so... but the brexit debate seems to have stuck people on the right or left more than ever before. With some of our politicians now literally copying Trumps style beat for beat I'm looking at it and thinking we've got a long way to go before we come out the other side. 

[Benguin]

I’m way too outnumbered in this thread to get into a debate. Where’s Mattp and Webbo? 

 

I guess my final comments are:

 

No one can deny the mess trying to leave the EU has been, then again no one can do more than predict the mess/success actually leaving the EU will result in. 

 

People can and and are manipulated. I think it’s a pretty level playing ground for which side it effects though.

 

Once you lot are done congratulating yourselves on how clever you are and how wrong brexiteers are, remember we will leave and we will all suffer/gain from it. 

[Ali Begbie]

 

I'm not even sure that there's a majority for Leave anymore. Hidden away in the last YouGov poll on Brexit I saw, it said that 9% of Leavers had changed their minds and wanted to remain now.

 

A second referendum really is the only way out of this. The politicians have taken an awful lot of flack over this, but really, it's our fault - the electorate.

 

We voted for this mess and now we're trying to blame them for it. Even though around 95% of established politicians, economists etc told us it was a bad idea.

 

[Strokes]

50 minutes ago, Ali Begbie said:

 

I'm not even sure that there's a majority for Leave anymore. Hidden away in the last YouGov poll on Brexit I saw, it said that 9% of Leavers had changed their minds and wanted to remain now.

 

A second referendum really is the only way out of this. The politicians have taken an awful lot of flack over this, but really, it's our fault - the electorate.

 

We voted for this mess and now we're trying to blame them for it. Even though around 95% of established politicians, economists etc told us it was a bad idea.

 

If we can’t have a GE then we should have a second referendum. Something has to happen to break the impasse in parliament.

[Finnaldo]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

If we can’t have a GE then we should have a second referendum. Something has to happen to break the impasse in parliament.

 

Would be interesting how it would be executed.

 

Would either have to nail it down as a No Deal vs Remain referendum, or come to terms with a deal  and have that compete with no deal, and then have the prevailing Leave option compete against Remain.

 

I can't see a second referendum before a GE at this rate though.