Brexit!

[Kopfkino]

 

42 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I tend to agree. Given the impasse, I can see a case for (and against) a second referendum - but not for revoking without consulting the electorate.

 

There will be lasting division regardless of the Brexit outcome. But, as with No Deal, it would surely be on quite another scale with Revoke?

A major motivation for the Leave vote was people feeling ignored by "the elite".....and people like Swinson want to just ignore the referendum result and revoke?!? 

That seems like a solution tailor-made to increase toxic divisions and alienation from the democratic process - possibly leading to public disorder, thuggery & the rise of the Far Right....

 

Swinson says she's made the switch from Referendum to Revoke because it would be nonsense for an explicitly Remain party to try to negotiate a Brexit Deal to put to a referendum. Yet, they've vocally advocated a referendum since 2016.

In a referendum, they could also put May's Deal, any deal that Boris negotiates or even No Deal to a vote with Remain. That would be a lot more respectful of the electorate than just revoking!

 

I presume this is cynical "product differentiation" by the Lib Dems. They see much (though not all) of Labour inching onto their old Referendum terrain and want to differentiate themselves as "the Remain party" to win seats.

Most of their target seats are prosperous Tory seats in the SE & SW with a big Remainer vote, so I presume they want to avoid Remain voters there drifting to Labour, causing them to miss out on seats.

 

In reality, it's highly unlikely that the Lib Dems will be negotiating Brexit. Polls suggest they could gain a number of seats, but not that they'll be anywhere near being the biggest party in parliament.

But if an election happens before Brexit is sorted, a hung parliament with more Lib Dem MPs is distinctly possible. Their Revoke stance would surely make it much harder to get either a Soft Brexit Deal or a Second Referendum.....unless they back down.

 

I do wonder where the Lib Dems will end up once Brexit is finally sorted, which might be within a couple of months. They've essentially become a Remain party. What other policies are they promoting?

Like them or not, Labour has a raft of other policies (as they did in 2017). If we do end up with a November election after leaving the EU with or without a deal at Halloween, what platform will the Lib Dems stand on? 

 

 

 

Absolutely agree Alf with everything you say. I voted for the Lib Dems in the Euros because I thought a second referendum, whilst likely to bring about a whole other mess, was the best way through/I felt compelled to vote and couldn't vote for anyone else. I think their new position will cost them in a lot of their target Con seats.

 

After Brexit, I do hope they go back to dying their death. They stand for absolutely nothing, are bereft of ideas and principles and are now a dumping ground for the self-righteous careerists. I'd rather the current Labour Party govern

[LiberalFox]

The revoke policy is about offering something that is actually concrete to the electorate. In reality not a huge amount has changed because the policy only affects a Lib Dem majority government and if the Liberal Democrats were to win an outright majority on a revoke platform then why not? But more importantly it's the right thing to do to bring us out of the immediate uncertainty and begin to move forward. The party still back a second referendum if that's what is necessary to avoid no deal. 

[Focks]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

Who would be in charge?  EU Parliament.

 

.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Focks said:

.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/context

 

Let's not go down this rabbit hole, yes?

[Alf Bentley]

56 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

The revoke policy is about offering something that is actually concrete to the electorate. In reality not a huge amount has changed because the policy only affects a Lib Dem majority government and if the Liberal Democrats were to win an outright majority on a revoke platform then why not? But more importantly it's the right thing to do to bring us out of the immediate uncertainty and begin to move forward. The party still back a second referendum if that's what is necessary to avoid no deal. 

 

No Deal is "something actually concrete" that would "bring us out of the immediate uncertainty" and allow us "to move forward". It would also be economically disastrous and massively divisive socially.

Revoking without another referendum might avoid the economic disasters of No Deal but would be just as divisive socially, encouraging large numbers of people to hold democracy in contempt.

 

OK, in some dreamworld where the Lib Dems stood on a Revoke platform and won an election with more than 50% of the vote, that could be deemed to be a mandate.

But what if they won an outright majority on a Revoke platform with just 35% of the national vote? 

 

Even that is a pipedream, though. What would happen if an election resulted in a hung parliament, with significantly more Lib Dem MPs than now.....an outcome that is distinctly possible.

If Corbyn was leading a minority govt & sought parliamentary approval for a referendum, would the Lib Dems block that, insisting on Revoke & allowing the clock to run down towards No Deal again?

If Johnson negotiated a new deal, would the Lib Dems oppose moves to have it put to a referendum (which might succeed) and insist on Revocation until they were looking down the barrel of No Deal......at which point it might be very hard to get legislation for a referendum through all its stages in the Commons & Lords?

 

It seems to me that, if Revoke is a serious LD policy, it risks dividing those seeking to avoid No Deal or open to a second referendum or even a softer Brexit - and makes No Deal and greater polarisation even more likely.

If it is a policy that the LDs would jettison the minute they found themselves not forming a majority govt, it seems like a meaningless gesture - & a cynical abuse of a major crisis, using it as a rebranding exercise to win votes at the expense of national stability and a sane outcome to all this madness.

[Facecloth]

Sam Gyimah joins the Lib Dems from the Tories. 

 

They should start announcing these like football transfers.

[The Horse's Mouth]

Lib Dems is basically becoming the Tory remain party 

[LiberalFox]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

No Deal is "something actually concrete" that would "bring us out of the immediate uncertainty" and allow us "to move forward". It would also be economically disastrous and massively divisive socially.

Revoking without another referendum might avoid the economic disasters of No Deal but would be just as divisive socially, encouraging large numbers of people to hold democracy in contempt. I'd be quite happy for large numbers of people to "hold democracy in contempt" if it meant making the correct decision on something that could heavily impact the economy and our future relationship with Europe. I don't see this as more socially divisive than electing Labour or Conservative majorities on 40% of the vote.

 

OK, in some dreamworld where the Lib Dems stood on a Revoke platform and won an election with more than 50% of the vote, that could be deemed to be a mandate.

But what if they won an outright majority on a Revoke platform with just 35% of the national vote? We're having that debate at conference but we live in a representative democracy and governments don't hold back on implementing their manifestos because they received less than 50% of the vote.

 

Even that is a pipedream, though. What would happen if an election resulted in a hung parliament, with significantly more Lib Dem MPs than now.....an outcome that is distinctly possible.

If Corbyn was leading a minority govt & sought parliamentary approval for a referendum, would the Lib Dems block that, insisting on Revoke & allowing the clock to run down towards No Deal again? No they would back it.

If Johnson negotiated a new deal, would the Lib Dems oppose moves to have it put to a referendum (which might succeed) and insist on Revocation until they were looking down the barrel of No Deal......at which point it might be very hard to get legislation for a referendum through all its stages in the Commons & Lords? No they would back a referendum.

 

It seems to me that, if Revoke is a serious LD policy, it risks dividing those seeking to avoid No Deal or open to a second referendum or even a softer Brexit - and makes No Deal and greater polarisation even more likely.

If it is a policy that the LDs would jettison the minute they found themselves not forming a majority govt, it seems like a meaningless gesture - & a cynical abuse of a major crisis, using it as a rebranding exercise to win votes at the expense of national stability and a sane outcome to all this madness. That's a bit of a bollocks argument, by that logic anything any party other than Labour or the Conservatives offer could be described that way. At least Revoke is a policy that could be implemented.

 

[Bobby Hundreds]

Introspection at voting Lib Dems with so many Tory bellwhiffs joining. 🤢

[Kopfkino]

In gaining Sam Gymiah the Lib Dems have doubled the number of genuine liberals that they have as MPs. Unfortunately, the other one is standing down.

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Lib Dems is basically becoming the Tory remain party 

More like becoming the we’ll take any mp as we have so few.  Poor call to be honest.

[The Horse's Mouth]

47 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

In gaining Sam Gymiah the Lib Dems have doubled the number of genuine liberals that they have as MPs. Unfortunately, the other one is standing down.

That is genuinely ridiculous, if you change party it should trigger a bi-election 

[StanSP]

 

[Alf Bentley]

Ah well, @LiberalFox..... Swinson is on Marr tomorrow morning, so will be interesting to hear what she says and to read between the lines....

[Legend_in_blue]

I've listened to a load of garbage on the BBC this morning as various MPs change their stance to suit.  However, Bridgen telling me I could potentially be standing in the centre of Leicester, app in hand to call a driverless car to come and pick me up and all within a 5 year timescale takes the biscuit.

 

[Facecloth]

2 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

I've listened to a load of garbage on the BBC this morning as various MPs change their stance to suit.  However, Bridgen telling me I could potentially be standing in the centre of Leicester, app in hand to call a driverless car to come and pick me up and all within a 5 year timescale takes the biscuit.

 

He's full of crap isn't he.

 

I do agree with him on HS2 though. Alex Norris sitting next to him waxing lyrical about how cutting the journey time between Nottingham and Birmingham will boost the local economy. No it won't, as good a city as Nottingham is people will just hop on the train to go to Birmingham. Companies will move in around Birmingham knowing people from places like Nottingham won't have hours of travel to get to work. HS2 will just benefit the huge cities and places like Nottingham, Leicester etc will just become dead commuter cities.

[Finnaldo]

1 hour ago, Facecloth said:

HS2 will just benefit the huge cities and places like Nottingham, Leicester etc will just become dead commuter cities.

 

Vering off-topic but this is very true. There’s plenty of here who obviously have a naturally negative opinion on Nottingham but it’s for mutual benefit we should work to boost the cultural and historical aspects of the East Midlands. Between Leicester, Nottingham & Lincoln (guess we have to include Derby as well) there’s plenty of tourism and nice city spots that could be exploited and between them much more stunning countryside  as well as the foot of the Peak District. 

 

Its in our own interest we work with other mid-sized cities to ensure the likes of Birmingham and Leeds don’t use us the same way London has essentially used the South East and South Midlands.

[The Fox Covert]

2 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Vering off-topic but this is very true. There’s plenty of here who obviously have a naturally negative opinion on Nottingham but it’s for mutual benefit we should work to boost the cultural and historical aspects of the East Midlands. Between Leicester, Nottingham & Lincoln (guess we have to include Derby as well) there’s plenty of tourism and nice city spots that could be exploited and between them much more stunning countryside  as well as the foot of the Peak District. 

 

Its in our own interest we work with other mid-sized cities to ensure the likes of Birmingham and Leeds don’t use us the same way London has essentially used the South East and South Midlands.

I think a lot of us would rather have the HS2 money spent on electrifying all lines connecting cities with more than a quarter of a million population. And re-opening a few branch lines which are now needed because the population has increased so much in the last fifty years.

Electrification of the Midland, Leicester to Birmingham and Bristol-Birmingham-Derby lines with the latest versions of the Pendolino trains.

Re-opening a short stretch of line between Nuneaton and Coventry would open the way to much faster journeys between Nottingham / Leicester / Coventry and Oxford / Swindon / Reading. A journey between any of these Midlands cities and the upper Thames Valley area is currently very slow.

[Sampson]

Have to agree with Kopfkino on this one.

 

I voted LibDem in the Euros and almost certainly would've voted for them again. However, they've lost my vote after yesterday.

 

Revoking is just the opposite side to the ridiculous coin of No Deal and anyone saying it would make us economically better off surely has to recognise this is way past economics now and any assumption that things would go back to the way they were are beyond naive at this point.

 

I think the divisions from this saga are likely to last years, but if there's 2 sure fire ways of greatly exasperating and deepening those divisions then it's no deal or revoking - in which case you're pretty much instantly going to cause millions and millions of the population to feel like they're not being listened to. We're already having huge problems in Europe with the rise of populism and the rise of the Far Right and Far Left and our 2 main parties have already moved towards populism and harder Left/Right rhetoric in the past 3 or 4 years, I could only see revoking article 50 based on some 33% of a general election vote causing just as dangerous a backlash as No Deal which could cause just as dangerous, decades-long divisions in this country.

 

I get this move is the LibDems trying to differentiate themselves from Labour on Brexit, but surely they must realise this is a very dangerous game they're playing? How can anyone think this is a sensible way through this impasse?

Edited 15 September 2019 by Sampson

[Heathrow fox]

On 14/09/2019 at 11:55, BlueSi13 said:

Possibly not for long...no more opt-outs, no more vetoes.  

 

 

Makes you wonder why people think it’s a dead cert Scotland would leave the Union.Also is it possible that the EU will actually be glad to see the back of us.

[Jon the Hat]

7 hours ago, Legend_in_blue said:

I've listened to a load of garbage on the BBC this morning as various MPs change their stance to suit.  However, Bridgen telling me I could potentially be standing in the centre of Leicester, app in hand to call a driverless car to come and pick me up and all within a 5 year timescale takes the biscuit.

 

As ever with technology we over estimate the short term impact but underestimate the long term

[The Guvnor]

19 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Ah well, @LiberalFox..... Swinson is on Marr tomorrow morning, so will be interesting to hear what she says and to read between the lines....

I think the message was crystal Alf.

[twoleftfeet]

Is it as set in libdem stone as the 2010 pledge to scrap tuition fees which rose under the Tory/Libdem coalition.

[Beechey]

Guy Verhofstadt at the Lib Dem conference saying the EU needs to become an empire (the crowd loved it).

Really knows how to win over a Eurosceptic public.

[Foxhateram]

BREXIT is a mess, tragic and disastrous. The lies told in the propoganda is almost on the level of what Hitler used to gain the trust of German people all those years ago. Having a man who pushed such agenda, knowing for well and admitted afterwards, that it was all lies is disgraceful. Yet Brexiteers still think this whole process is democratic because they voted in 2016 for leave. 

 

We have an unelected prime minister for the second time since this shite show began, polls and petitions with millions of signatures of have been completely ignored and the same shite narrative is being pushed. 'Its what the people want' no May and Boris, I think you will find it is what you want, so you can avoid new corperate taxes coming into place next year. 

 

We need to stop it now before it causes an almighty mess for this country.

Edited 15 September 2019 by Foxhateram