Brexit!

[FerrisBueller]

Just now, Finnaldo said:

 

Would be interesting how it would be executed.

 

Would either have to nail it down as a No Deal vs Remain referendum, or come to terms with a deal  and have that compete with no deal, and then have the prevailing Leave option compete against Remain.

 

I can't see a second referendum before a GE at this rate though. 

Bu putting it back to people after 3 years of absolute nothing is undemocratic, apparently...

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Would be interesting how it would be executed.

 

Would either have to nail it down as a No Deal vs Remain referendum, or come to terms with a deal  and have that compete with no deal, and then have the prevailing Leave option compete against Remain.

 

I can't see a second referendum before a GE at this rate though. 

I think it would need to be 2 tiers. 

Leave or remain. Then deal or no deal.

 

Although you only get the second option if you choose leave. 

[WigstonWanderer]

8 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Would be interesting how it would be executed.

 

Would either have to nail it down as a No Deal vs Remain referendum, or come to terms with a deal  and have that compete with no deal, and then have the prevailing Leave option compete against Remain.

 

I can't see a second referendum before a GE at this rate though. 

Single transferable vote surely

[Finnaldo]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I think it would need to be 2 tiers. 

Leave or remain. Then deal or no deal.

 

Although you only get the second option if you choose leave. 

 

1 minute ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Single transferable vote surely

See this is where there's a deadlock over how referendum's ran!  

 

I agree with Strokes that it should be tiered (single transferable vote arguably gives a 2 to 1 advantage to Brexit), but I feel it's better the final choice is Remain vs Leave having known for certain if it will be Deal or No Deal, it gives people a genuine idea of what Leave is.

[bovril]

There is never going to be a referendum with 'no deal' as an option. 

[WigstonWanderer]

6 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

See this is where there's a deadlock over how referendum's ran!  

 

I agree with Strokes that it should be tiered (single transferable vote arguably gives a 2 to 1 advantage to Brexit), but I feel it's better the final choice is Remain vs Leave having known for certain if it will be Deal or No Deal, it gives people a genuine idea of what Leave is.

Disagree, 2 tier is far too complicated. Besides, if people really want to leave despite all the shit that’s come out since the original vote, then I think that will need to be respected. I’d expect either remain or a deal to win, probably fairly close.

[Finnaldo]

5 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Disagree, 2 tier is far too complicated. Besides, if people really want to leave despite all the shit that’s come out since the original vote, then I think that will need to be respected. I’d expect either remain or a deal to win, probably fairly close.

 

We'll likely always disagree on this, I think a one-on-one referendum has to be the ultimate outcome, but I respect your thinking and it does make sense. 

[Charl91]

11 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Disagree, 2 tier is far too complicated. Besides, if people really want to leave despite all the shit that’s come out since the original vote, then I think that will need to be respected. I’d expect either remain or a deal to win, probably fairly close.

 

Far too complicated?!?!

 

If someone finds that far too complicated, then there's absolutely no way they should be voting on an issue as complicated as Brexit.

Edited 13 September 2019 by Charl91

[The Horse's Mouth]

the only way a referendum sorts something is if the government get the answer they want, but I doubt that'll be the case

[Saxondale]

Revoke. It's a failed project. Farage and his band of poundshop Nazis will continue to moan whatever happens.

 

We just need a prime minister with the bollocks (or ovaries) to come out and say "no, we're not doing this because it will make your lives worse".

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Saxondale said:

Revoke. It's a failed project. Farage and his band of poundshop Nazis will continue to moan whatever happens.

 

We just need a prime minister with the bollocks (or ovaries) to come out and say "no, we're not doing this because it will make your lives worse".

If it was guaranteed to be limited to just them and just moaning then fair enough, but quite frankly I think there could be serious civil unrest if such a revocation occurs.

 

Mind you, I'm of the opinion now that is a real possibility no matter what course of action is taken given the polarisation this has all caused, so ho hum.

[Saxondale]

Just now, leicsmac said:

If it was guaranteed to be limited to just them and just moaning then fair enough, but quite frankly I think there could be serious civil unrest if such a revocation occurs.

 

Mind you, I'm of the opinion now that is a real possibility no matter what course of action is taken given the polarisation this has all caused, so ho hum.

Correct, there's a seismic split that now exists whatever happens.

 

Most of the leave voters I know personally are oldies (like my parents and parents-in-law), who will grumble for a bit, but then quietly forget the whole sorry saga ever happened. Any genuine disorder will just have to be managed.

[Footballwipe]

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

And what made you want to vote leave, what is it that you don't like exactly?

 

The amount of times I've seen blatant lies on the front page of the Sun my mum gets, and then a tiny retraction months later hidden away that is ignored. And I have to listen to me 71 year old mum telling me the foreigners are all swarming over here, taking the benefits and raping our women. Her news comes from The Sun, I don't blame her for forming her opinions from it, the people to blame are those directly pointing their papers in those directions... usually for money or power. Putin might not have personally told you what to do. But you, me and everyone else is being conditioned by what we consume. 

 

I don't have a dog in this fight particularly. I'm a bit left here, a bit right there and I hate politics with a passion. Especially the modern partisan politics where by you've picked a party and no matter what they say or they do, they are right and everyone else is wrong. 

BIB I- Unlikely you'll get an answer to this. The other week I asked in this thread how much suffering Brexiteers were willing to take for their dream to come true. Mortgage repayments increasing, job losses for themselves/families etc. Didn't get a response. Last week I asked someone several times for a list of reasons for the EU being so horrible, and eventually got a reply which, when you copied the response posted, directed back to the Daily Express. Not an independent website, not a nuanced post articulating their grievances. I'm really struggling for substance.

 

BIB II- is absolutely right, and one of the main issues. No one wants to lose face. People have picked a position and god forbid they change it. There's bloody mindedness from some, an ego thing. An I cannot be wrong. No-one wants to be told the side they've picked is a bad-un. Farage can't be bad for me. Brexit can't be a disaster for me or my loved ones. Corbyn can't have potentially antisemitic tendencies and cronies alike. No no no.

 

I suspect there's the element of mocking that comes from the pathetic faction of the remain side, that embeds people, too. Those who are actively revelling in the prospect of those who voted leave losing jobs, people saying those who voted out being first to suffer. That kind of rhetoric can easily push someone wavering to solidify their position back to leave.

 

I don't want anyone to suffer but, if suffering did occur, I still want to know how much suffering those who are so fervently Brexit are willing to take. What's it worth?

[Jon the Hat]

45 minutes ago, Footballwipe said:

BIB I- Unlikely you'll get an answer to this. The other week I asked in this thread how much suffering Brexiteers were willing to take for their dream to come true. Mortgage repayments increasing, job losses for themselves/families etc. Didn't get a response. Last week I asked someone several times for a list of reasons for the EU being so horrible, and eventually got a reply which, when you copied the response posted, directed back to the Daily Express. Not an independent website, not a nuanced post articulating their grievances. I'm really struggling for substance.

 

BIB II- is absolutely right, and one of the main issues. No one wants to lose face. People have picked a position and god forbid they change it. There's bloody mindedness from some, an ego thing. An I cannot be wrong. No-one wants to be told the side they've picked is a bad-un. Farage can't be bad for me. Brexit can't be a disaster for me or my loved ones. Corbyn can't have potentially antisemitic tendencies and cronies alike. No no no.

 

I suspect there's the element of mocking that comes from the pathetic faction of the remain side, that embeds people, too. Those who are actively revelling in the prospect of those who voted leave losing jobs, people saying those who voted out being first to suffer. That kind of rhetoric can easily push someone wavering to solidify their position back to leave.

 

I don't want anyone to suffer but, if suffering did occur, I still want to know how much suffering those who are so fervently Brexit are willing to take. What's it worth?

I asked how exactly people who want to cancel Brexit think our relationship with the EU will go from now if we back down.  No answer.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

I asked how exactly people who want to cancel Brexit think our relationship with the EU will go from now if we back down.  No answer.

In all fairness, forgetting to answer questions is an easy mistake anyone could make...

 

 

On 11/09/2019 at 13:24, Voll Blau said:

 

 

But the document has constantly evolved since it was first produced, according to James Cleverley, meaning someone's been updating it since COBRA took the project over.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-no-deal-boris-johnson-yellowhammer-james-cleverly-a9071301.html

 

And come on, you were questioning the integrity of Yellowhammer's initial authors - otherwise why bring up the fact they are allegedly "quite pro-Remain"?

[Babylon]

8 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I asked how exactly people who want to cancel Brexit think our relationship with the EU will go from now if we back down.  No answer.

When we have a veto and when we put in billions I'm pretty sure it will go on not far different to what it did before, even if we got the cold shoulder for a while. 

[Charl91]

43 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I asked how exactly people who want to cancel Brexit think our relationship with the EU will go from now if we back down.  No answer.

As Babylon said, probably not much different to how it was now. Most of the EU, like us, probably just want this to be over, one way or another. I imagine they'd be a bit pissy about the huge waste of time this whole thing has been, but since they want us in the project, and know there's a lot of anti-EU sentiment, I can't imagine they would do anything too drastic. 

[yorkie1999]

3 hours ago, bovril said:

There is never going to be a referendum with 'no deal' as an option. 

Not again anyway.

[twoleftfeet]

Did we ever have losers consent it seems that when it is two horse race or an in out referendum the losing party isnt happy with going with the view of the majority this is true if both the referendums that have taken place in the uk. The remainers arent happy with brexit and the SNP arent happy with remaining in the UK. 

[The Guvnor]

With regards the recent discussions on a second vote. 

If there is another extension on the 31st of October then set a date before the   31st Jan  with a binary choice , improved deal v No deal, now that would concentrate minds and would still respect  the leave vote.

[iniesta]

olly robins leaving for goldman sachs, verhofstadt offering bercow a job on the eu commission, clinking wine glasses to the sound of raucous laughter at the idea of years worth of extensions. at what point do remainers realise it's just a gravy train at our expense?

 

 

[Strokes]

Just now, iniesta said:

olly robins leaving for goldman sachs, verhofstadt offering bercow a job on the eu commission, clinking wine glasses to the sound of raucous laughter at the idea of years worth of extensions. at what point do remainers realise it's just a gravy train at our expense?

 

 

Buckle up, I hear the intake of drawn breath. 

[Charl91]

34 minutes ago, iniesta said:

olly robins leaving for goldman sachs, verhofstadt offering bercow a job on the eu commission, clinking wine glasses to the sound of raucous laughter at the idea of years worth of extensions. at what point do remainers realise it's just a gravy train at our expense?

 

 

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brexit-disaster-capitalism-8-billion-bet-on-no-deal-crash-out-by-boris-johnsons-leave-backers/

 

[Lionator]

6 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I asked how exactly people who want to cancel Brexit think our relationship with the EU will go from now if we back down.  No answer.

Considerably better than if we weren't part of it. 

[HappyHamza]

8 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I asked how exactly people who want to cancel Brexit think our relationship with the EU will go from now if we back down.  No answer.

In struggling to understand exactly what the question is. 

We'd just go back to how things were. 

The EU isnt us and them.  It's just us all together. 

The EU  will move towards closer union but the idea of a 'two speed' EU is relatively well thought of in europe. We still have our veto over anything we don't like, including the removal of vetos. If we do it now we keep all the extras we've successfully negotiated over the years. 

We'd need to show some contrition for what we've out our neighbours through for the last three years but we can manage that. 

 

Edited 13 September 2019 by HappyHamza