Brexit!

[Alf Bentley]

3 hours ago, The Guvnor said:

I think the message was crystal Alf.

 

Yep. Swinson's tactics are almost the mirror image of Boris:

- Boris: Promise an immediate, extreme Brexit solution to establish party as "the party for Brexit", win the votes of Leave supporters who want an instant magic solution, increase toxic polarisation, sod the other half of the nation & gain power

- Swinson: Promise an immediate, extreme Remain solution to establish party as "the party for Remain", win the votes of Remain supporters who want an instant magic solution, increase toxic polarisation, sod the other half of the nation & gain power/MPs

 

Should be a fun-packed election campaign.....can you imagine the attacks they're both going to face (not least from one another) as anti-democrats? I'll be astonished if there isn't violence or worse during the election.

 

Given the number of people, on both sides and neither, who just want Brexit dealt with, it might even be a vote-winner for the Lib Dems (though it will alienate some). But where does it take them beyond the short-term?

- In the unlikely event they win an election, they'd have to revoke, attracting the fury of half the nation & causing even more alienation from democratic politics & even more bitter division within the nation

- Assuming they don't win the election, do they immediately revert to supporting a referendum after fighting an election as "the Revoke Party"....if so, what will all the voters attracted by their Revoke stance make of that? Particularly if it drags on for months yet? Or, if they've won a lot of extra MPs mainly under a Revoke banner, do they keep pushing the Revoke policy for a time, at least, dividing the opposition to Brexit?

- If Brexit somehow happens before the election, what platform would they fight the election on? Both as regards Brexit (immediate reversal?) and other policies, if they have any other major policies.....as they seem to be becoming a single-issue party.

 

The bad news for people wanting Brexit over and done with is that, regardless of the outcome (No Deal, Deal, Referendum, Revoke), it will still be going on for years to come - either clogging up our political system or dividing our society. 

 

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

5 minutes ago, Foxhateram said:

BREXIT is a mess, tragic and disastrous. The lies told in the propoganda is almost on the level of what Hitler used to gain the trust of German people all those years ago. Having a man who pushed such agenda, knowing for well and admitted afterwards, that it was all lies is disgraceful. Yet Brexiteers still think this whole process is democratic because they voted in 2016 for leave. 

 

We have an unelected prime minister for the second time since this shite show began, polls and petitions with millions of signatures of have been completely ignored and the same shite narrative is being pushed. 'Its what the people want' no May and Boris, I think you will find it is what you want, so you can avoid new corperate taxes coming into place next year. 

 

We need to stop it now before it causes an almighty mess for this country.

I don’t even know where to begin with this post, dear oh dear...

[Legend_in_blue]

One has to ask a simple question.  Before this disaster began, and before Cameron took us into this mess, what exactly did the EU do that affects me on a day by day basis?  Personally, it meant very little, we were part of the EU and it had very little bearing on what I did, it was just there.

 

Fast forward 3 years, and assuming we leave, will I notice a difference once we're out of the EU on a daily basis?  Probably, and likely for the worse.  

 

Change, it's a funny thing.  Rarely does such a huge change bring about improvement.

Edited 15 September 2019 by Legend_in_blue

[Foxhateram]

44 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I don’t even know where to begin with this post, dear oh dear...

Go on. Please do enlighten me oh holy one.

[Foxhateram]

Brexshit can fuch off!

[WigstonWanderer]

13 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Yep. Swinson's tactics are almost the mirror image of Boris:

- Boris: Promise an immediate, extreme Brexit solution to establish party as "the party for Brexit", win the votes of Leave supporters who want an instant magic solution, increase toxic polarisation, sod the other half of the nation & gain power

- Swinson: Promise an immediate, extreme Remain solution to establish party as "the party for Remain", win the votes of Remain supporters who want an instant magic solution, increase toxic polarisation, sod the other half of the nation & gain power/MPs

 

Should be a fun-packed election campaign.....can you imagine the attacks they're both going to face (not least from one another) as anti-democrats? I'll be astonished if there isn't violence or worse during the election.

 

Given the number of people, on both sides and neither, who just want Brexit dealt with, it might even be a vote-winner for the Lib Dems (though it will alienate some). But where does it take them beyond the short-term?

- In the unlikely event they win an election, they'd have to revoke, attracting the fury of half the nation & causing even more alienation from democratic politics & even more bitter division within the nation

- Assuming they don't win the election, do they immediately revert to supporting a referendum after fighting an election as "the Revoke Party"....if so, what will all the voters attracted by their Revoke stance make of that? Particularly if it drags on for months yet? Or, if they've won a lot of extra MPs mainly under a Revoke banner, do they keep pushing the Revoke policy for a time, at least, dividing the opposition to Brexit?

- If Brexit somehow happens before the election, what platform would they fight the election on? Both as regards Brexit (immediate reversal?) and other policies, if they have any other major policies.....as they seem to be becoming a single-issue party.

 

The bad news for people wanting Brexit over and done with is that, regardless of the outcome (No Deal, Deal, Referendum, Revoke), it will still be going on for years to come - either clogging up our political system or dividing our society. 

 

 

Yes, unfortunately there just doesn’t seem to be any way of avoiding years (perhaps a decade or more) of misery. The only slim hope would be an off the shelf deal based on Norway. Can’t see it happening though, and it has the flaw that the UK would be a rule taker whilst having little say in framing the rules.

[Foxxed]

So Boris silences your MPs then ignores a law your MPs have passed.

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, Foxxed said:

So Boris silences your MPs then ignores a law your MPs have passed.

Call a general election. 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Call a general election. 

This situation isn't on those doing their job. It's on the man threatening to break the law who has also been found in court to have lied to the queen.

[Strokes]

27 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Call a general election. 

I think it’s more likely we will get a new government but not by a GE. I think we are on the fringes of a coup.

[Nick]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I think it’s more likely we will get a new government but not by a GE. I think we are on the fringes of a coup.

[The Guvnor]

57 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

This situation isn't on those doing their job. It's on the man threatening to break the law who has also been found in court to have lied to the queen.

There have been two court hearings remember, let's see what the outcome is tomorrow. 

[Saxondale]

15 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I don’t even know where to begin with this post, dear oh dear...

But you're unable to offer a single retort in support of your viewpoint?

[Saxondale]

15 hours ago, Legend_in_blue said:

One has to ask a simple question.  Before this disaster began, and before Cameron took us into this mess, what exactly did the EU do that affects me on a day by day basis?  Personally, it meant very little, we were part of the EU and it had very little bearing on what I did, it was just there.

 

Fast forward 3 years, and assuming we leave, will I notice a difference once we're out of the EU on a daily basis?  Probably, and likely for the worse.  

 

Change, it's a funny thing.  Rarely does such a huge change bring about improvement.

Nobody mentioned the EU in the past, despite the huge amount of GOOD it does for our country. You used to get the occasional guff in the right-wing press about 'barmy Brussels bureaucrats', but that was mainly just for sport. Then Farage turned up (thanks to the BBC, who effectively made him one of their regular contributors) and told all the old biddies what they wanted to hear: none of the problems in this country are your fault, it's the evil, omniscient power from Brussels that is making everything shit.

 

[Voll Blau]

2 hours ago, The Guvnor said:

There have been two court hearings remember, let's see what the outcome is tomorrow. 

Yep, expecting the Supreme Court to find in Johnson's favour but it doesn't take away from what the Court of Session judges found in their ruling. That'll be a matter of historic record forever more about this woeful period we find ourselves in.

[Nick]

16 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Yep. Swinson's tactics are almost the mirror image of Boris:

- Boris: Promise an immediate, extreme Brexit solution to establish party as "the party for Brexit", win the votes of Leave supporters who want an instant magic solution, increase toxic polarisation, sod the other half of the nation & gain power

- Swinson: Promise an immediate, extreme Remain solution to establish party as "the party for Remain", win the votes of Remain supporters who want an instant magic solution, increase toxic polarisation, sod the other half of the nation & gain power/MPs

 

Should be a fun-packed election campaign.....can you imagine the attacks they're both going to face (not least from one another) as anti-democrats? I'll be astonished if there isn't violence or worse during the election.

 

Given the number of people, on both sides and neither, who just want Brexit dealt with, it might even be a vote-winner for the Lib Dems (though it will alienate some). But where does it take them beyond the short-term?

- In the unlikely event they win an election, they'd have to revoke, attracting the fury of half the nation & causing even more alienation from democratic politics & even more bitter division within the nation

- Assuming they don't win the election, do they immediately revert to supporting a referendum after fighting an election as "the Revoke Party"....if so, what will all the voters attracted by their Revoke stance make of that? Particularly if it drags on for months yet? Or, if they've won a lot of extra MPs mainly under a Revoke banner, do they keep pushing the Revoke policy for a time, at least, dividing the opposition to Brexit?

- If Brexit somehow happens before the election, what platform would they fight the election on? Both as regards Brexit (immediate reversal?) and other policies, if they have any other major policies.....as they seem to be becoming a single-issue party.

 

The bad news for people wanting Brexit over and done with is that, regardless of the outcome (No Deal, Deal, Referendum, Revoke), it will still be going on for years to come - either clogging up our political system or dividing our society. 

 

 

I’d be tempted to vote for The Liberal Democrat’s because there are in reality no other alternative PM candidates who well are not y’know, liars. Thing that I can’t quite get out of my head though is that the Liberal Democrat’s have just about half their MP’s at this time made up of Tory defectors which basically is a bit like not just wheeling in one big obvious Trojan Horse gift, but fvcking loads of them.

[LiberalFox]

Trick is not to just vote for the party but follow the internal goings on and you can decide if you like it or not. 

[Captain...]

17 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Yep. Swinson's tactics are almost the mirror image of Boris:

- Boris: Promise an immediate, extreme Brexit solution to establish party as "the party for Brexit", win the votes of Leave supporters who want an instant magic solution, increase toxic polarisation, sod the other half of the nation & gain power

- Swinson: Promise an immediate, extreme Remain solution to establish party as "the party for Remain", win the votes of Remain supporters who want an instant magic solution, increase toxic polarisation, sod the other half of the nation & gain power/MPs

 

Should be a fun-packed election campaign.....can you imagine the attacks they're both going to face (not least from one another) as anti-democrats? I'll be astonished if there isn't violence or worse during the election.

 

Given the number of people, on both sides and neither, who just want Brexit dealt with, it might even be a vote-winner for the Lib Dems (though it will alienate some). But where does it take them beyond the short-term?

- In the unlikely event they win an election, they'd have to revoke, attracting the fury of half the nation & causing even more alienation from democratic politics & even more bitter division within the nation

- Assuming they don't win the election, do they immediately revert to supporting a referendum after fighting an election as "the Revoke Party"....if so, what will all the voters attracted by their Revoke stance make of that? Particularly if it drags on for months yet? Or, if they've won a lot of extra MPs mainly under a Revoke banner, do they keep pushing the Revoke policy for a time, at least, dividing the opposition to Brexit?

- If Brexit somehow happens before the election, what platform would they fight the election on? Both as regards Brexit (immediate reversal?) and other policies, if they have any other major policies.....as they seem to be becoming a single-issue party.

 

The bad news for people wanting Brexit over and done with is that, regardless of the outcome (No Deal, Deal, Referendum, Revoke), it will still be going on for years to come - either clogging up our political system or dividing our society. 

 

 

It's just a crazy situation, Johnson's No deal pushing rhetoric is alienating people, Swinson's anti democratic revoke stance is alienating people and Corbyn's muddling trying to please everyone approach is alienating people. 

 

There must be someone somewhere who can come up with a credible solution to a complex but not impossible problem.

[BlueSi13]

On 14/09/2019 at 12:57, leicsmac said:

Thank you. One at a time, and I'm going to use one very very specific example that I'm well-known for:

 

What better results are you talking about?  Better energy generation and enforceable environmental regulations across a larger area of the world.

Who would benefit the most?  Everyone in the long term, everyone apart from the coal and oil companies in the short term.

Who would be in charge?  EU Parliament.

What and whose set of norms and values would we have to follow?  Hopefully the ones that say that the future is actually important.

Why does Europe NEED a supranational entity?  Because the countries by themselves are not doing enough to counter this problem and that has potentially dire consequences.

Why does the UK need to surrender sovereign power over its own defence, laws, trader and borders to a bunch of random Polish, Dutch and Luxemborgian politics so they can fulfil their fantasies of acting big on the world stage and talking tough to the USA? Not on defence, not on all laws and not all trades. Just the ones that affect everyone - as the above does.

If we as a COUNTRY want to go in a different direction, how do we do that? On varying matters that don't affect everyone, there should absolutely be a veto and autonomy should remain. On this particular matter, however, I'm struggling to extend the idea of free will to screwing over the future for one and everyone else.

How is this progress? Taking a course of action most likely to prevent the downfall of civilisation in the future is what I would call progress, but of course that's only my take.

 

Of course, this is only one matter where I believe a supranational entity is needed, but it is a critical one, no matter how much people might put their heads in the sand about it. There has to be some nuance - some things fall under the head of national sovereignty, some do not, it's not a simple either-or.

I can tell you're coming at this from a climate change perspective, but the rest I find dangerously naive.  

 

If you genuinely think a United State of Europe would genuinely champion the cause of the little guy rather than German industry and French agriculture I have a bridge to sell you. 

 

I have literally stood on the EU parliament floor in Brussels and was told by a random Czech education minister that the purpose of the EU was to eventually end nation state sovereignty and become a single unified "FORCE" to "TAKE ON" the USA and China.  Not a mention of increasing wealth and property across the continent and to look out for future generations.  Even as a much younger man at the time I thought it sounded like extremely dangerous language.

 

Meanwhile, in other news, remember how Brexiteers were accused of being obsessed with Empire?

 

A foreign politician, in the UK, at a major British party conference, being cheered to the rafters by "Britons" by calling for the UK to be absorbed in to the EU Empire.  

 

To those that voted Remain, is this what you really want?  Is this what you voted for?  Is this preferable to a few queues at Dover and short-term shortage of Blueberries?

[BlueSi13]

3 hours ago, Foxxed said:

So Boris silences your MPs then ignores a law your MPs have passed.

By rejecting the opportunity to remove him a General Election, the House of Commons has expressed absolute confidence in his administration and government.  

 

He should now feel emboldened to do whatever he sees fit to implement the democratically expressed will of the people on the 31st of October 

 

 

 

 

[Nick]

4 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

By rejecting the opportunity to remove him a General Election, the House of Commons has expressed absolute confidence in his administration and government.  

 

He should now feel emboldened to do whatever he sees fit to implement the democratically expressed will of the people on the 31st of October 

 

 

 

 

Or here’s the tweeted video that’s been around for days of a bunch of football fans taking the piss out of a Boris looking steward being hijacked and re-represented as working class football support of Brexit.

 

 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, BlueSi13 said:

By rejecting the opportunity to remove him a General Election, the House of Commons has expressed absolute confidence in his administration and government.  

 

He should now feel emboldened to do whatever he sees fit to implement the democratically expressed will of the people on the 31st of October 

 

 

 

 

 

Good grief, not sure even Cummings would dare to say that with a straight face. So doing the opposite of what someone wants to do now means you're expressing absolute confidence in them? Strange, strange take.

 

And please tell me you're not trying to use that video to seriously back up your point. Please. 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Swan Lesta said:

Or here’s the tweeted video that’s been around for days of a bunch of football fans taking the piss out of a Boris looking steward being hijacked and re-represented as working class football support of Brexit.

 

 

"Astonishing watch". Yeah, if you've literally never been to a football match in your life.

[BlueSi13]

9 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 

Good grief, not sure even Cummings would dare to say that with a straight face. So doing the opposite of what someone wants to do now means you're expressing absolute confidence in them? Strange, strange take.

 

And please tell me you're not trying to use that video to seriously back up your point. Please. 

Boris is doing what the country asked him to do and that's to leave the European Union, deal or no deal.  

 

Talking about saying things with straight faces, I don't think my comment was any different to remainers arguing that parliaments continual blocking and sabotaging of Brexit has all been about "defending democracy"

 

As for the video, tongue very much in cheek, but can tell you liked it 

Edited 16 September 2019 by BlueSi13

[leicsmac]

27 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

I can tell you're coming at this from a climate change perspective, but the rest I find dangerously naive.  

 

If you genuinely think a United State of Europe would genuinely champion the cause of the little guy rather than German industry and French agriculture I have a bridge to sell you. 

 

I have literally stood on the EU parliament floor in Brussels and was told by a random Czech education minister that the purpose of the EU was to eventually end nation state sovereignty and become a single unified "FORCE" to "TAKE ON" the USA and China.  Not a mention of increasing wealth and property across the continent and to look out for future generations.  Even as a much younger man at the time I thought it sounded like extremely dangerous language.

 

Meanwhile, in other news, remember how Brexiteers were accused of being obsessed with Empire?

 

A foreign politician, in the UK, at a major British party conference, being cheered to the rafters by "Britons" by calling for the UK to be absorbed in to the EU Empire.  

 

To those that voted Remain, is this what you really want?  Is this what you voted for?  Is this preferable to a few queues at Dover and short-term shortage of Blueberries?

You're right, I am - because in my own opinion that one issue renders most others moot. What's the point in sovereignty when there are no more nations, merely closed city-states? What's the point in trade negotiations when it's just a few armoured caravans going between them? (Yes, that's a little Mad Max, I know, but you get the idea.)

 

You might be right in that the EU might morph into this hyperstate that only cares about the elites within the upper echelons of it and nothing for those working on the fringes of it. Equally, you might be wrong. It's a chance either way and no one can really be certain.

 

What is more certain (not a dead certainty, merely a good chance) is that the current governmental structure seems incapable of handling climate change issues in a satisfactory enough manner in order to shake off pretty damn awful consequences later on. Now, I am not suggesting that the only possible solution to that is a massive monolithic superstate, but what I am suggesting is that there needs to be at least some joined-up thinking not only EU-wide but world-wide on this matter and an entity that already covers most of the nations of Europe seems a reasonably place for that. If other solutions are on the table, fine, I'd be happy to hear them - frankly I don't care about the make-up of the solution short of some kind of nightmarish 1984-style dystopia, just as long as it is effective, because what climate change can (and may well) do to civilisation is categorically worse than every single nightmare governmental scenario short of that.

 

Given the chance nature can make the worst excesses of what we humans do to each other - Holocaust, Holodomor, whatever - look very tame indeed.

Edited 16 September 2019 by leicsmac