Tactics Talk:

[davieG]

1 minute ago, NasPb said:

Belongs in ex players this 

Wrong link corrected now. I need anew mouse as it keeps malfunctioning.

[casablancas]

MYbe one for @StriderHiryu and eat.al 

 

answer me this … if you can please. So we play a high back line with Sou snd Johnny often pushing up the half way line going through the back of my he opponents clearly trying to win the ball back early. I see the merits in this when we have the pace to make up for it. But can you explain if an change in this approach would be be fine effective? We have vesty who on theory should be decent in our box, but he can’t play a high line. This we know, so if we dropped back and perhaps chucked I’m in for Soy would we be any more effective at defending corners? I mean evans and soy gave away a fair amount of free kicks in attempts at winning the ball back high up but this just adds pressure as we are like under 5’s defending set pieces. Just pondering here and any thoughts welcome. 

[StriderHiryu]

15 minutes ago, casablancas said:

MYbe one for @StriderHiryu and eat.al 

 

answer me this … if you can please. So we play a high back line with Sou snd Johnny often pushing up the half way line going through the back of my he opponents clearly trying to win the ball back early. I see the merits in this when we have the pace to make up for it. But can you explain if an change in this approach would be be fine effective? We have vesty who on theory should be decent in our box, but he can’t play a high line. This we know, so if we dropped back and perhaps chucked I’m in for Soy would we be any more effective at defending corners? I mean evans and soy gave away a fair amount of free kicks in attempts at winning the ball back high up but this just adds pressure as we are like under 5’s defending set pieces. Just pondering here and any thoughts welcome. 

The high line (though ours is not even that high), isn't the issue. If it was, then we'd be conceding tons of goals on the counter attack in a 1 on 1. Villa did have a few opportunities like that in the second half, but that's because we were chasing the game and taking risks.

 

Our problem is when we have time to setup our defensive shape, it's terrible. Zonal marking from set pieces means the opposition out jump us, and in more open play, too many lapses of concentration mean men are spare. For both goals today, someone was free in each passage of play that resulted in a goal conceded.

 

The definition of insanity is trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result. Go man for man at set pieces or try a hybrid approach. We are beyond a joke how bad we are, and that is 10 out of 15 games where we have conceded 2 goals in a game. An appalling statistic.

[orangecity23]

4 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

The high line (though ours is not even that high), isn't the issue. If it was, then we'd be conceding tons of goals on the counter attack in a 1 on 1. Villa did have a few opportunities like that in the second half, but that's because we were chasing the game and taking risks.

 

Our problem is when we have time to setup our defensive shape, it's terrible. Zonal marking from set pieces means the opposition out jump us, and in more open play, too many lapses of concentration mean men are spare. For both goals today, someone was free in each passage of play that resulted in a goal conceded.

 

The definition of insanity is trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result. Go man for man at set pieces or try a hybrid approach. We are beyond a joke how bad we are, and that is 10 out of 15 games where we have conceded 2 goals in a game. An appalling statistic.

Agree massively with this - what is the worst case scenario if we change our approach - that we concede 3 from corners? We've got nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying something different.

[davieG]

It seems to me our overall play is so predictable with our playing the ball down the wings Defence to either Thomas or Castagne who then move it forward to Barnes or Lookman. 

 

Why are we not playing the ball through the middle more, why are our 2 centre backs  and keeper so afraid of passing into the middle via Ndidi or KDH?

 

We so easy to defend against and lose the ball so much by our predictable play.

[5waller5]

32 minutes ago, davieG said:

It seems to me our overall play is so predictable with our playing the ball down the wings Defence to either Thomas or Castagne who then move it forward to Barnes or Lookman. 

 

Why are we not playing the ball through the middle more, why are our 2 centre backs  and keeper so afraid of passing into the middle via Ndidi or KDH?

 

We so easy to defend against and lose the ball so much by our predictable play.

I think this predictable pattern of play is us playing exactly the football the manager is coaching. It’s really formulaic and old fashioned now

[CosbehFox]

I think the one tweak we could massively help ourselves is telling Wilf he’s a screen and nothing more. It’s not his game to be an outright centre midfielder and that defence needs all the protection it can get. Castagne is scared of overlapping because of the lack in cover. 

[southfox66]

It seems to me that no one is really sure how the team is expected to play anymore we seem to have a first half where we stand off the ball, pass the ball aimlessly around the back with no real purpose, allow the other side space, to run and attack us keeping us deep in our own half, but in the second half we try to do more pressing, closing down the space with the aim of dominating the game more.

 

I think we got to the point where no one seems to have a clue anymore, whether it be on the pitch, on the sides lines or in the stands, who the real Leicester city are meant to be??? 🙄 🙃 

Edited 5 December 2021 by southfox66

[davieG]

34 minutes ago, southfox66 said:

It seems to me that no one is really sure how the team is expected to play anymore we seem to have a first half where we stand off the ball, pass the ball aimlessly around the back with no real purpose, allow the other side space, to run and attack us keeping us deep in our own half, but in the second half we try to do more pressing, closing down the space with the aim of dominating the game more.

 

I think we got to the point where no one seems to have a clue anymore, whether it be on the pitch, on the sides lines or in the stands, who the real Leicester city are meant to be??? 🙄 🙃 

We changed it up today when the1st half became the 2nd and the 2nd became the 1st.

[Steve Earle]

12 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

The high line (though ours is not even that high), isn't the issue. If it was, then we'd be conceding tons of goals on the counter attack in a 1 on 1. Villa did have a few opportunities like that in the second half, but that's because we were chasing the game and taking risks.

 

Our problem is when we have time to setup our defensive shape, it's terrible. Zonal marking from set pieces means the opposition out jump us, and in more open play, too many lapses of concentration mean men are spare. For both goals today, someone was free in each passage of play that resulted in a goal conceded.

 

The definition of insanity is trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result. Go man for man at set pieces or try a hybrid approach. We are beyond a joke how bad we are, and that is 10 out of 15 games where we have conceded 2 goals in a game. An appalling statistic.

But we do, don't we? Like most teams in the PL our defence at set pieces is set up part zonal, part man to man.

 

Unfortunately, unlike every other team, we have a goalkeeper who flatly refuses to leave his line (when he does, it's often with disastrous consequences eg Spurs at home). This means that corners etc can be pinged into the heart of our six-yard box rather than aimed at the penalty spot. His lack of confidence spreads throughout the rest of the defence. We look terrified every time a ball comes into our box. And it all starts with the keeper. Crikey, we were better at defending set-pieces with 5'8" Kevin Poole in goal!

 

Note how many of our corners are collected by opposing keepers! It's not difficult. It's goalkeeping 101. 

 

I guess on Thursday we'll find out if Kasper is undroppable, because I've rarely seen a player more deserving of time out the side.

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, Steve Earle said:

But we do, don't we? Like most teams in the PL our defence at set pieces is set up part zonal, part man to man.

 

Unfortunately, unlike every other team, we have a goalkeeper who flatly refuses to leave his line (when he does, it's often with disastrous consequences eg Spurs at home). This means that corners etc can be pinged into the heart of our six-yard box rather than aimed at the penalty spot. His lack of confidence spreads throughout the rest of the defence. We look terrified every time a ball comes into our box. And it all starts with the keeper. Crikey, we were better at defending set-pieces with 5'8" Kevin Poole in goal!

 

Note how many of our corners are collected by opposing keepers! It's not difficult. It's goalkeeping 101. 

 

I guess on Thursday we'll find out if Kasper is undroppable, because I've rarely seen a player more deserving of time out the side.

I haven't seen us use any man to man marking at set pieces this season. Each player has a zone they mark, and they try to win their zone. That's why players go completely unmarked, e.g. the second goal yesterday and countless others this season, or our players get out jumped because they are operating from a standing start.

 

I think you are bang on the money with regards to the Keeper situation. If Kasper was more aggressive with punching / claiming the ball from corners, it would make a big difference.

 

The last time I remember use man to man marking for set pieces was under Ranieri and Shakespeare. Since Puel came in, we've moved to zonal instead. Zonal marking by the way is used by many top teams and absolutely can and does work. Brendan even got it working in previous seasons with us. But at the moment it's not working at all, and I don't see us suddenly fixing it. Maybe Fofana would make a difference because he can leap so high that he can win a header from a standing start. But he's just one man and can't do it all by himself even if are able to get him back into the team next year.

[Hamilton Fox]

2 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

I haven't seen us use any man to man marking at set pieces this season. Each player has a zone they mark, and they try to win their zone. That's why players go completely unmarked, e.g. the second goal yesterday and countless others this season, or our players get out jumped because they are operating from a standing start.

 

I think you are bang on the money with regards to the Keeper situation. If Kasper was more aggressive with punching / claiming the ball from corners, it would make a big difference.

 

The last time I remember use man to man marking for set pieces was under Ranieri and Shakespeare. Since Puel came in, we've moved to zonal instead. Zonal marking by the way is used by many top teams and absolutely can and does work. Brendan even got it working in previous seasons with us. But at the moment it's not working at all, and I don't see us suddenly fixing it. Maybe Fofana would make a difference because he can leap so high that he can win a header from a standing start. But he's just one man and can't do it all by himself even if are able to get him back into the team next year.

Not sure it was a good example but for the second goal Thomas appeared to be man marking Mings… 

[Jimothy]

3 minutes ago, Hamilton Fox said:

Not sure it was a good example but for the second goal Thomas appeared to be man marking Mings… 

I think Mings was in his zone. Had he broke away Thomas would have passed him on to the next zone. Its another issue with zonal marking as the bigger opposition player will move towards the zone of our smallest players rather than being faced up by our biggest players.

[StriderHiryu]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

I think Mings was in his zone. Had he broke away Thomas would have passed him on to the next zone. Its another issue with zonal marking as the bigger opposition player will move towards the zone of our smallest players rather than being faced up by our biggest players.

Exactly this. Because he's zonal marking, and Mings is in his zone, he marks Mings... but Konsa is free so scores because he's unmarked. So this is an example where Thomas is not to blame because he's doing his job, but the system shows it flaws.

 

If we went man-to-man it's possible that we lose the individual battle and Konsa still scores, but at least someone is there to try to mark the free man.

 

You could also have a hybrid approach where some players are man marked, e.g. the taller players, and others operate in more of a zonal manner. Remember 15/16 when Morgan and Huth would wrestle their counterparts to stop them getting a run on us? And remember how in that season during the first part we also conceded a lot of goals, and many from set pieces? But Ranieri fixed it.

 

As it stands you've got to think that our players can't stand Pizza. Two plus goals conceded a game means Domino's in Leicester are on suicide watch.

[Jimothy]

10 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Exactly this. Because he's zonal marking, and Mings is in his zone, he marks Mings... but Konsa is free so scores because he's unmarked. So this is an example where Thomas is not to blame because he's doing his job, but the system shows it flaws.

 

If we went man-to-man it's possible that we lose the individual battle and Konsa still scores, but at least someone is there to try to mark the free man.

 

You could also have a hybrid approach where some players are man marked, e.g. the taller players, and others operate in more of a zonal manner. Remember 15/16 when Morgan and Huth would wrestle their counterparts to stop them getting a run on us? And remember how in that season during the first part we also conceded a lot of goals, and many from set pieces? But Ranieri fixed it.

 

As it stands you've got to think that our players can't stand Pizza. Two plus goals conceded a game means Domino's in Leicester are on suicide watch.

Yeah, actually that's another flaw in zonal marking isn't it. I mentioned the bigger players matching up to our smaller players, but also if you have your defence rigidly sticking to their zones then there is nothing stopping the attacking team flooding that zone and adding extra player to out number you. Football isn't rigid, its fluid. Its played by humans who can decide in a split second to go elsewhere, not by robots with a preprogrammed path. By rigidly sticking to our zones and not reacting to the movement of the attacking team we are giving them the upper hand. Essentially we could end up with our whole defence stood on their own whilst one man is swamped by 8 or 9 opposition players. Its an extreme example but its basically how zonal marking works.

 

[StriderHiryu]

7 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Yeah, actually that's another flaw in zonal marking isn't it. I mentioned the bigger players matching up to our smaller players, but also if you have your defence rigidly sticking to their zones then there is nothing stopping the attacking team flooding that zone and adding extra player to out number you. Football isn't rigid, its fluid. Its played by humans who can decide in a split second to go elsewhere, not by robots with a preprogrammed path. By rigidly sticking to our zones and not reacting to the movement of the attacking team we are giving them the upper hand. Essentially we could end up with our whole defence stood on their own whilst one man is swamped by 8 or 9 opposition players. Its an extreme example but its basically how zonal marking works.

 

Spot on. Zonal marking was invented because it attempted to create structure and end the chaos that is seen when 18 men are having 9 individual duels in the 18 yard box. Corners can be seen as somewhat of a 50/50 in each individual duel, and it's easy to drag a defender out of position by one player so another one can get free when man to man marking is employed. Zonal marking does stop that and also helps you play out from the back quickly if an individual duel is won as everyone knows roughly in what position everyone else should be in when that happens.

 

However, as you point out it also has it's flaws, which are being exploited relentlessly by the opposition at the moment.

 

I'm not saying that going man to man will magically fix our problems because it might not, but our current plight is a damning indictment of coaching at the club. Denmark have the best defence in World Cup qualifying, Jonny Evans is a Premier League and FA Cup winner. Caglar Soyuncu is a fully fledged international as is Timothy Castagne. And yet dog turd would be more effective at defending at set pieces given that the smell might put players off. As it stands every team in European football licks their lips when they are awarded a corner or free kick in our half.

[CosbehFox]

Thomas is marking Mings because they do both zonal / man to man. 

[Jimothy]

12 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Thomas is marking Mings because they do both zonal / man to man. 

If that's the case it adds more issues, as Thomas is the only one seemingly engaging with an opposition player, so if we're doing a mix, he's the only one man marking, so not much of a mix. And why are we picking him to mark a giant like Mings?

Edited 6 December 2021 by Facecloth

[CosbehFox]

3 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

If that's the case it adds more issues, as Thomas is the only one seemingly engaging with an opposition player, so if we're doing a mix, he's the only one man marking, so not much of a mix. And why are we picking him to mark a giant like Mings?

Thomas isn't the only one. Three players man mark/block the runs - normally Barnes and the other CM to WIlf. Then it's four zonal - normally Castagne/Vardy front post, Evans next, Wilf middle, Soyuncu back post. 

 

There's been other occasions it's been highlighted - thinking back to when Youri was marking McBurnie at Bramall Lane last season. The idea is for them to block/challenge rather than win the header. I am not saying it's right but that's the idea and if you watch closely it's used by a lot of teams. I watched Napoli use it the other week. 

 

Yesterday's was a real kick in the teeth as that was nothing about a front post run etc, it's just a lack of responsibility. Occasionally someone has to break from the system when it's something so obvious. The way we operate zonal is so static. 

[Jimothy]

3 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Thomas isn't the only one. Three players man mark/block the runs - normally Barnes and the other CM to WIlf. Then it's four zonal - normally Castagne/Vardy front post, Evans next, Wilf middle, Soyuncu back post. 

 

There's been other occasions it's been highlighted - thinking back to when Youri was marking McBurnie at Bramall Lane last season. The idea is for them to block/challenge rather than win the header. I am not saying it's right but that's the idea and if you watch closely it's used by a lot of teams. I watched Napoli use it the other week. 

 

Yesterday's was a real kick in the teeth as that was nothing about a front post run etc, it's just a lack of responsibility. Occasionally someone has to break from the system when it's something so obvious. The way we operate zonal is so static. 

But its still zonal, because Thomas is being asked to affect that man in that area. He's not been told to pick up a certain man, he's been told to disturb the run of a player in a zone. In what world would you intentionally pick Thomas to match up with Mings? As I said earlier, Mings is in his zone, so he ends up against him. Man marking would be a player matches up to an opposition. E.G. Ndidi on Mings, Soyuncu on Konsa, Evans on Watkins etc 

[CosbehFox]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

But its still zonal, because Thomas is being asked to affect that man in that area. He's not been told to pick up a certain man, he's been told to disturb the run of a player in a zone. In what world would you intentionally pick Thomas to match up with Mings? As I said earlier, Mings is in his zone, so he ends up against him. Man marking would be a player matches up to an opposition. E.G. Ndidi on Mings, Soyuncu on Konsa, Evans on Watkins etc 

Thomas had Mings at every corner. If you look KDH is marking Ramsey and Maddison is marking Douglas Luis. The three in the middle (ie. not the zonal players) are all assigned a player to try and stop. 

 

There's two tactics teams like to take advantage of us on set pieces. Either crowd around the six yard box and make Schmeichel panic - Burnley are the absolute masters at it and have been for about three years now. Or aim the ball around the penalty spot and let the runners take advantage of our best headers of the ball be static. 

Edited 6 December 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[Jimothy]

1 minute ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Thomas had Mings at every corner. The three in the middle (ie. not the zonal players) are all assigned a player to try and stop. 

Supposing you are right, I personally think Thomas is positioned in a certain space, and Mings gravitated there, but anyway if you are right we have another problem don't we, because why is Thomas assigned Mings? Who has made the conscious decision to match them up. Mings is 6ft 5, and has a good 6 inch height advantage over Thomas, added to the fact he's built like a brick shithouse, up against a 20 year old just breaking through who isn't bulky at all. When you assign the players, you get you tallest and strongest against their tallest and strongest.

[Hamilton Fox]

4 hours ago, Facecloth said:

I think Mings was in his zone. Had he broke away Thomas would have passed him on to the next zone. Its another issue with zonal marking as the bigger opposition player will move towards the zone of our smallest players rather than being faced up by our biggest players.

It seems strange you would put Thomas on him, but at no point is Thomas looking at the ball so it’s like he is sticking to mings whatever (didn’t do a great job of it either)

[Hamilton Fox]

The first goal is just awful as well there was about 4 defenders who all backed upto the 6 yard line marking no one and the villa players were all about 12 yards out allowed to do what they like. Just all round shocking defending

[FLAN]

Couldn’t understand villa putting two men on Kapser. Haven’t they seen he has no intent of coming to claim the ball in his area?