Tactics Talk:

[sacreblueits442]

1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

Playing two wide players would require much stronger defensive cover than Tielemans and Soumaré , Iheanacho is no defender. We would be easily outfought in midfield by many teams. The CBs would be badly exposed.

....there is very little difference between playing Soumare and Ndidi!!!

They may not play the same but Soumare can do an effect job in that area. The rest of the team is the same as we have always put out, the Nacho comment has thrown me as, if Nacho is playing in the#10 spot he will be just as effective defensively as having Maddison in that role.

[An Sionnach]

1 minute ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....there is very little difference between playing Soumare and Ndidi!!!

They may not play the same but Soumare can do an effect job in that area. The rest of the team is the same as we have always put out, the Nacho comment has thrown me as, if Nacho is playing in the#10 spot he will be just as effective defensively as having Maddison in that role.

Wilf isn't in his best form but still substantially better and more experienced than Soumaré. Youri is off it as well so asking for trouble I reckon. If we went with them I would play Albrighton to stiffen the defence.

[sacreblueits442]

4 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

Wilf isn't in his best form but still substantially better and more experienced than Soumaré. Youri is off it as well so asking for trouble I reckon. If we went with them I would play Albrighton to stiffen the defence.

....Wilf is out at the moment, but as a hypothetical scenario in what we agree is a 4-2-3-1 then playing Albrighton as opposed to Lookman negates our attack!!!

The bone of contention is the pivot role and having Soumare in that position does not expose our defence a great deal more than having Ndidi. It will be a narrow formation with the width coming from the Fullbacks with the wide forwards effectively tucking in to give space to the overlapping Fullback.

  We will be defending from the front and so long as we do not play a high line with our existing Centre Backs we will be ok.

[An Sionnach]

14 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....Wilf is out at the moment, but as a hypothetical scenario in what we agree is a 4-2-3-1 then playing Albrighton as opposed to Lookman negates our attack!!!

The bone of contention is the pivot role and having Soumare in that position does not expose our defence a great deal more than having Ndidi. It will be a narrow formation with the width coming from the Fullbacks with the wide forwards effectively tucking in to give space to the overlapping Fullback.

  We will be defending from the front and so long as we do not play a high line with our existing Centre Backs we will be ok.

If Iheanacho and Vardy play , I wouldn't worry too much about goal threat. It's our defence that bothers me ,especially now we are without Wilf and Jonny so I think we have to be cautious. Lookman would get the nod over Barnes for me ,at least to start.

[Spiritwalker]

I think with our current defensive frailties we’ll have to accept shipping 2 goals a game and just 

try and find a way to score more. It’s not ideal but I’m not sure there’s a viable alternative.

[Clever Fox]

1 hour ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....Wilf is out at the moment, but as a hypothetical scenario in what we agree is a 4-2-3-1 then playing Albrighton as opposed to Lookman negates our attack!!!

The bone of contention is the pivot role and having Soumare in that position does not expose our defence a great deal more than having Ndidi. It will be a narrow formation with the width coming from the Fullbacks with the wide forwards effectively tucking in to give space to the overlapping Fullback.

  We will be defending from the front and so long as we do not play a high line with our existing Centre Backs we will be ok.

Spot on as I see it. I agree Soumare is now the likely stand in for NDiddi though it's a big test for him.

We need to take the game to them which is why I'd also go with Lookman as he's a good ball carrier and has a Goal in him.

 

What we really need is a performance from whoever plays tomorrow.

[sdb]

Any truth in the rumours BR spent last Xmas watching Simpsons box sets? 

 

https://tenor.com/blPYk.gif

 

 

[trabuch]

22 minutes ago, sdb said:

Any truth in the rumours BR spent last Xmas watching Simpsons box sets? 

 

https://tenor.com/blPYk.gif

 

 

Obviously not. That's happening far too far up the pitch.

[Lambert09]

3-5-2 without a defensive minded midfielder works! 
 

Such a big difference having 2 players good on the ball rather than forcing in hamza/ mendy/ wilf 

 

if 3 cbs can’t look after themselves then you have bigger problems 

[StriderHiryu]

@Izzy

 

My thoughts on today's game from a tactical perspective.

 

A pretty simple game, influenced heavily by our previous win against them in the FA Cup last season. Manchester United have quite a few weaknesses, despite their star studded cast of names. Weakness number one: poor ability to play out from the back, Lindeloff and Maguire panic under pressure. Weakness number two: inability to play through the lines and dominate midfield possession. They don't press players in the middle of the park.

 

So Rodgers goes for 3412, and asks the team, but specifically Iheanacho and Vardy to press their back 2, which led to a goal and several other opportunities. We dominated the game, with Soumare going under the radar for making us not miss Ndidi at all, with his ball carrying work helping us keep the momentum throughout the game. We put Castagne and Ricardo on so we could deal with fast, technical wingers like Greenwood, Sancho and later Rashford. Man U play on the break and those two are vitally important. Notice how on the break we got back extremely quickly, Evans with some fantastic tackles to save our bacon a few times. Greenwood did score, and perhaps Castagne could have done better by showing him onto his weaker foot... but that's being incredibly harsh. Greenwood had a fantastic game and looks like a tremendous player. Any team would struggle to stop a goal like that.

 

Despite Man U getting totally outplayed, Ole actually deserves a small sliver of credit! That's because he realised that Man U could not play through the middle so went for the long ball instead, putting on Rashford for Sancho. We totally switched off for the second goal, but that was their plan and it worked! That's a goal we really need to work on because it was out of nothing. Otherwise from open play they created very little. Of course the real question is how a team that spends so much money can't play through the middle of the park! I find that embarrassing given the Ferguson teams that had players like Robson, Keane, Scholes, Carrick, etc.

 

Will we stick to 3412? I think it depends on the opposition. Brentford as crazy as this sounds are more of a footballing team than Man U, but Toney is a tough player to handle. If Evans is fully fit, I could see us going back to 4231, but given this performance we should really keep the same 11. If we did make a change, I would actually go for Perez over Maddison, because he was brilliant when he came on!

 

 

Edited 17 October 2021 by StriderHiryu

[Lambert09]

55 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

@Izzy

 

My thoughts on today's game from a tactical perspective.

 

A pretty simple game, influenced heavily by our previous win against them in the FA Cup last season. Manchester United have quite a few weaknesses, despite their star studded cast of names. Weakness number one: poor ability to play out from the back, Lindeloff and Maguire panic under pressure. Weakness number two: inability to play through the lines and dominate midfield possession.

 

So Rodgers goes for 3412, and asks the team, but specifically Iheanacho and Vardy to press their back 2, which led to a goal and several other opportunities. We dominated the game, with Soumare going under the radar for making us not miss Ndidi at all, with his ball carrying work helping us keep the momentum throughout the game. We put Castagne and Ricardo on so we could deal with fast, technical wingers like Greenwood, Sancho and later Rashford. Man U play on the break and those two are vitally important. Notice how on the break we got back extremely quickly, Evans with some fantastic tackles to save our bacon a few times. Greenwood did score, and perhaps Castagne could have done better by showing him onto his weaker foot... but that's being incredibly harsh. Greenwood had a fantastic game and looks like a tremendous player. Any team would struggle to stop a goal like that.

 

Despite Man U getting totally outplayed, Ole actually deserves a small sliver of credit! That's because he realised that Man U could not play through the middle so went for the long ball instead, putting on Rashford for Sancho. We totally switched off for the second goal, but that was their plan and it worked! That's a goal we really need to work on because it was out of nothing. Otherwise from open play they created very little. Of course the real question is how a team that spends so much money can't play through the middle of the park! I find that embarrassing given the Ferguson teams that had players like Robson, Keane, Scholes, Carrick, etc.

 

Will we stick to 3412? I think it depends on the opposition. Brentford as crazy as this sounds are more of a footballing team than Man U, but Toney is a tough player to handle. If Evans is fully fit, I could see us going back to 4231, but given this performance we should really keep the same 11. If we did make a change, I would actually go for Perez over Maddison, because he was brilliant when he came on!

Good review! I’d say that our Europa league game might sway the decision for the next game as well. 
 

I could see us sticking with this away in Moscow, (with different personnel) if we win I’d expect to see it again at Brentford. 

[theessexfox]

It’s the best shape to get our best / most in-form players on the pitch, seems a no brainier at the moment 

[Kierzz]

2 minutes ago, theessexfox said:

It’s the best shape to get our best / most in-form players on the pitch, seems a no brainier at the moment 

Yep great shape. Loved how it allowed one of the full backs to press almost as high as our strikers whilst still maintaining a four at the back when they managed to rarely play through our press 

[StriderHiryu]

17 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

Good review! I’d say that our Europa league game might sway the decision for the next game as well. 
 

I could see us sticking with this away in Moscow, (with different personnel) if we win I’d expect to see it again at Brentford. 

It's definitely possible.

 

Today we didn't play Lookman or Barnes, which shows you our strength in depth! I'd expect those 2 and possibly KDH to play some part midweek. But I could also see us saving the wingers for Brentford too. We need to beat Moscow though, otherwise we are out of Europe so can't be too careful.

 

This was our best performance of the season, but Man U played into our hands with their tactics. 442 against Palace Nacho was superb and Vardy scored, but the team structure was a mess. But would you sacrifice Nacho with the form he's in? I wouldn't, because he's one of our most consistent players. Castagne and Ricardo were also good today and both could, maybe should have scored. So that makes me think 3412 next week, maybe back to 433 midweek. We shall see.

[Keiriel]

2 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

It's definitely possible.

 

Today we didn't play Lookman or Barnes, which shows you our strength in depth! I'd expect those 2 and possibly KDH to play some part midweek. But I could also see us saving the wingers for Brentford too. We need to beat Moscow though, otherwise we are out of Europe so can't be too careful.

 

This was our best performance of the season, but Man U played into our hands with their tactics. 442 against Palace Nacho was superb and Vardy scored, but the team structure was a mess. But would you sacrifice Nacho with the form he's in? I wouldn't, because he's one of our most consistent players. Castagne and Ricardo were also good today and both could, maybe should have scored. So that makes me think 3412 next week, maybe back to 433 midweek. We shall see.

It was a fantastic performance, but the real test will be against opponents willing and able to press. With that being said, I think we'll see the current formation used for a while as it not only enables Iheanacho to play a part, but it also gives Daka the opportunity to shine without the pressure of playing up top on his own; the other added benefit is that a Daka/Vardy partnership is viable as they're both able to support the wide players by running the channels, and seeing as neither are the sort to drop deep, there's room for Perez or Maddison to bridge the gap between attack and midfield. The only downside is that Barnes will likely be left out.

[StriderHiryu]

3 minutes ago, Keiriel said:

It was a fantastic performance, but the real test will be against opponents willing and able to press. With that being said, I think we'll see the current formation used for a while as it not only enables Iheanacho to play a part, but it also gives Daka the opportunity to shine without the pressure of playing up top on his own; the other added benefit is that a Daka/Vardy partnership is viable as they're both able to support the wide players by running the channels, and seeing as neither are the sort to drop deep, there's room for Perez or Maddison to bridge the gap between attack and midfield. The only downside is that Barnes will likely be left out.

Against teams that want to attack and press, we can always look to counter. We lost to Man City but that game was really close. Vardy just centimetres offside and Barnes headed against the bar. That game could easily have been a draw or victory for us. So we have options against teams that want to go that way.

 

If we decided to go like for like and match a pressing team with our own pressing... well that will be interesting and we might see that next week. If the players are on it we win with quality, but they do need to be on it. One advantage of counter attacking football is that you can play badly and still pick up points. Man U almost did it to us today!

[Keiriel]

18 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Against teams that want to attack and press, we can always look to counter. We lost to Man City but that game was really close. Vardy just centimetres offside and Barnes headed against the bar. That game could easily have been a draw or victory for us. So we have options against teams that want to go that way.

 

If we decided to go like for like and match a pressing team with our own pressing... well that will be interesting and we might see that next week. If the players are on it we win with quality, but they do need to be on it. One advantage of counter attacking football is that you can play badly and still pick up points. Man U almost did it to us today!

Definitely. I mean, we have the players for it in Vardy, Daka, Lookman, and Barnes. As for United, I can't help but think they were set up badly from the start; too many luxury players and little to no aggression outside of an overly aggressive Matic, so if Ole was hoping to utilize the West Ham blueprint by letting us play out from the back and not allowing our midfield time and breathing space, he done ****ed up with his team selection.

[whoareyaaa]

we should setup like this now and roll with it regardless of the opposition

[StriderHiryu]

29 minutes ago, Keiriel said:

Definitely. I mean, we have the players for it in Vardy, Daka, Lookman, and Barnes. As for United, I can't help but think they were set up badly from the start; too many luxury players and little to no aggression outside of an overly aggressive Matic, so if Ole was hoping to utilize the West Ham blueprint by letting us play out from the back and not allowing our midfield time and breathing space, he done ****ed up with his team selection.

We are fortunate that Man U have Ole in charge because he’s a poor coach. Put Conte or any other top level manager (Rodgers!) in charge of them and with their quality they would be title contenders. 
 

West Ham are a much better coached side than Man U and not just because they beat us. They have a clear system and the right players to make it work. Moyes gets the most out of players like Soucek and Antonio whereas today Ole had 75m Jadon Sancho and 5 time Balon d’Or winner Ronaldo at his disposal and I can’t recall either having a kick. Ironically their goals came from their youth setup. 
 

Rodgers has come under a lot of pressure recently, and for good reason. But days like today are why we should be thankful we have him. He’s among the top 10 coaches in Europe for me. The only coaches who outperform him at similar clubs are Gaperini at Atalanta (truly amazing coach) and Gaultier at Nice who won the title with Lille. 

[StriderHiryu]

 

 

This is one of the best tactical analysis channels out there, with a good take on the game yesterday.

 

This video does a very good job of explaining how formations change during a game in terms of where players stand. For example we might start with a back 3, but when we attack, the shape changes to that either Ricardo or Castagne end up essentially being a winger.  It also shows how against Man United how the 3412 shape causes them so many problems. We were able to overload them in midfield time and time again because Bruno would push up to press passively alongside Ronaldo, meaning the ball to Maddison or Ihenacho was often on.

 

Highly recommended video to get a grasp of the inner workings of how the system works.

[mo-rima]

For once Rogers got it right yesterday. 

Even the substitutes. 

Was very surprised he put daka on.

[The whole world smiles]

19 minutes ago, mo-rima said:

For once Rogers got it right yesterday. 

Even the substitutes. 

Was very surprised he put daka on.

For once Rodgers got it right? Behave mate he has the highest win rate of any manager in the clubs history. 

[An Sionnach]

At the moment it seems best for us to stay with 3-4-1-2 , the more times we play it the more secure we should become. It means that the wing backs should look to push forward at every opportunity knowing that there is cover behind them. Centrally Tielemans , Soumaré and Maddison can also link to push the ball through or over to Vardy, Daka or Iheanacho. The press can be beaten if we stop the side to side meaningless passing.

[Scotch]

44 minutes ago, mo-rima said:

For once Rogers got it right yesterday. 

Even the substitutes. 

Was very surprised he put daka on.

Jesus fvcking christ!

[Stadt]

I hope Rodgers doesn’t do what he’s done quite frequently in the past - have a one off system succeed and then play it in games where it’s not very suitable.

 

352 didn’t work against Legia, an inferior side, so we shouldn’t go to Moscow playing this set up just because it worked against Manchester Utd.

 

 

                     Daka

Barnes     Iheanacho   Lookman

              KDH  Soumare

Thomas  Amartey  Cags Pereira 

                    Kasper

 

A selection similar to this but retain the aggression from Saturday both on and off the ball. KDH, Soumare and Iheanacho all have the ability to play the wingers and Daka in so their defence will be stretched.